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| From | "John Jackson" <jj@nospam.com> |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | comp.misc, alt.folklore.computers |
| Subject | Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 |
| Date | 2015-11-15 04:44 +1100 |
| Message-ID | <dapa7uF77h1U1@mid.individual.net> (permalink) |
| References | (9 earlier) <PM0005245889FBE0A0@aca40f93.ipt.aol.com> <n228p9$elr$1@pechter.eternal-september.org> <PM0005246CA6348F23@aca411e9.ipt.aol.com> <2j9hhc-ff3.ln1@sambook.reistad.name> <PM00052480CDC79C0E@aca429dc.ipt.aol.com> |
Cross-posted to 2 groups.
"jmfbahciv" <See.above@aol.com> wrote in message news:PM00052480CDC79C0E@aca429dc.ipt.aol.com... > Morten Reistad wrote: >> In article <PM0005246CA6348F23@aca411e9.ipt.aol.com>, >> jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote: >>>William Pechter wrote: >>>> In article <PM0005245889FBE0A0@aca40f93.ipt.aol.com>, >>>> jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote: >>>>>Scott Lurndal wrote: >>>>>> jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> writes: >>>>>>>Scott Lurndal wrote: >>>>>>>> jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> writes: >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Both were shit products. VMS got better after the PDP-10 >>>>>>>>>developers >>>>>>>>>got hired. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> While I agree that DECTape wasn't the brightest idea, >>>>>>>> your hatred of the VAX is personal; it was obviously a >>>>>>>> great product if you gauge by shipments, revenue and >>>>>>>> user testimonials. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Can you see the difference between VMS and VAX? >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Given that one didn't exist without the other (at least >>>>>> until the BSD port), no. >>>>> >>>>>Ah, I see. You're a customer. On my side of the biz, >>>>>they were two very different entities. >>>>> >>>>>/BAH >>>> >>>> There were differences between what LCG development was like and what >>>> the >>>> rest of DEC was like. In the real world VAX wasn't VMS although VMS >>>> was >>>> VAX. >>>> >>>> As far as your view on VMS -- it was pretty distorted compared with the >>>views >>>> of customers in the field. The major colleges and universities which >>>> used >>>> TOPS-10 and TOPS-20 weren't as pleased since the VAX was more a > departmental >>>> box than a mainframe. It wasn't designed to support thousands of >>>> users. >>> >>>It's not distorted. 10 and 20 customers were told that VAX/VMS was going >>>to replace the PDP-10 business. No choice in the matter. That's what I, >>>and a lot of other people, especially including customers, objected to. >>>VAX/VMS was fine for a particular niche, but not a viable replacement for >>>the work that the PDP-10s did. It was insane for Bell to insist that > happen. >> [snip] >>>Originally, OSF/1 was not supposed to be yet another Unix. JMF was part >>>of the original design group and got extrememly despressed when he >>>firgured out that the politics had determined that it would be another >>>unix. >>>The original goal was to design an OS which had the strengths of all >>>the OSes and avoid the problems of those same OSes. >> >> The OSF/1 designers nevers saw the possibility to have multiple >> personalites. These have a bad reputation after the "unix" retrofits >> for VMS(Eunice?), Primos (Primix), etc, but if this were designed >> in from the start, like AIX paritally has. >> >> OSF/1 could have been both a multics-like OS and have a unix >> top layer, but with some hypervisor-like functions for the extra >> functionality that is unknown to the unix api and ui. > > Just think what the OS could have been with designers who had > Unix, TOPS-10, TOPS-20, VMS and PDP-11 and -8 OS experience. Doesn’t necessarily mean that it would have ended up with the best of all of those. There are plenty of situations with OS where its just not possible to have all of the best of the implementations because most things come with downsides and any real design has to decide what pros and cons matter most. For example, sandboxing is an excellent approach for ensuring that rogue apps can't snoop on any data that doesn’t belong to them, but has the massive downside that that means that simple file ops aren't available either. > If the development process had acquired the Multics' > methods, security would not be an afterthought. But that has real downsides with useability. > OSF/1 blew it; not even the project leader could change > the minds of the managers who wanted yet another unix. >> >> QNX has done this, with a "just another unix" interface and a >> "real QNX" interface. > > The interface could have been pluggable so that moving to an > OSF/1 system did not require redoing the entire computing > of a customer site. But pluggable interfaces have their own real downsides. >> Well, perhaps some OSF/1 designers did. > > they did and fought but lost.
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[CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 RS Wood <rsw@therandymon.com> - 2015-11-08 13:49 +0000
Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 RS Wood <rsw@therandymon.com> - 2015-11-09 09:22 +0300
Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-11-09 09:22 +0200
Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 "gareth" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2015-11-09 11:10 +0000
Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2015-11-09 12:07 +0000
Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2015-11-09 12:08 +0100
Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-11-09 14:13 +0000
Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 "gareth" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2015-11-09 14:23 +0000
Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-11-10 14:22 +0000
Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2015-11-10 18:18 +0100
Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2015-11-10 18:25 +0000
Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 "gareth" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2015-11-10 19:35 +0000
Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 "John Jackson" <jj@nospam.com> - 2015-11-11 06:47 +1100
Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 "gareth" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2015-11-10 21:15 +0000
Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 "John Jackson" <jj@nospam.com> - 2015-11-11 12:15 +1100
Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 "gareth" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2015-11-11 10:19 +0000
Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2015-11-11 06:23 +0000
Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 Mike Tomlinson <mike@jasper.org.uk> - 2015-11-10 19:51 +0000
Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2015-11-11 00:31 +0100
Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 Stan Barr <plan.b@bluesomatic.org> - 2015-11-11 08:01 +0000
Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2015-11-11 12:23 +0100
Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 pechter@pechter.dyndns.org (William Pechter) - 2015-11-12 03:27 +0000
Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2015-11-12 13:23 +0000
Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-11-11 14:39 +0000
Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2015-11-12 05:51 +1100
Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2015-11-11 06:28 +1100
Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 Bob Eager <news0005@eager.cx> - 2015-11-09 16:24 +0000
Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-11-10 14:22 +0000
Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2015-11-10 16:01 +0000
Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2015-11-10 18:20 +0100
Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2015-11-10 18:49 +0000
Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-11-11 14:39 +0000
Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2015-11-11 16:31 +0000
Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 Bob Eager <news0005@eager.cx> - 2015-11-11 18:05 +0000
Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2015-11-11 18:20 +0000
Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 Bob Eager <news0005@eager.cx> - 2015-11-11 23:24 +0000
Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-11-12 14:04 +0000
Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 pechter@pechter.dyndns.org (William Pechter) - 2015-11-12 14:47 +0000
Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-11-13 13:58 +0000
Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2015-11-13 15:44 +0100
Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-11-14 13:56 +0000
Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 "John Jackson" <jj@nospam.com> - 2015-11-15 04:44 +1100
Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2015-11-14 10:15 -0800
Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2015-11-14 10:53 -0800
Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2015-11-16 14:47 +0000
Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2015-11-12 15:26 +0000
Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2015-11-10 17:52 +0100
Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2015-11-09 20:17 +0100
Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 hankvc@blackhole.lostwells.org (Hank) - 2015-11-10 02:21 +0000
Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-11-10 14:22 +0000
Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-11-09 14:13 +0000
Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2015-11-10 05:31 +1100
Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-11-10 14:22 +0000
Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2015-11-10 18:05 +0100
Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2015-11-11 10:52 +0000
Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 Mike Tomlinson <mike@jasper.org.uk> - 2015-11-11 11:40 +0000
Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2015-11-11 14:01 +0000
Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2015-11-11 06:25 +1100
Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 Johnny B Good <johnny-b-good@invalid.ntlworld.com> - 2015-11-10 23:19 +0000
Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 "Sam Thatch" <st342@gmail.com> - 2015-11-11 12:23 +1100
Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2015-11-11 07:34 +0000
Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 Johnny B Good <johnny-b-good@invalid.ntlworld.com> - 2015-11-11 17:24 +0000
Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 RS Wood <rsw@therandymon.com> - 2015-11-11 17:33 +0000
Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 Mike Tomlinson <mike@jasper.org.uk> - 2015-11-11 09:51 +0000
Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 pechter@pechter.dyndns.org (William Pechter) - 2015-11-12 03:17 +0000
Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-11-12 14:04 +0000
Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 Nyssa <Nyssa@flawlesslogic.com> - 2015-11-12 12:24 -0500
Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2015-11-12 17:45 +0000
Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-11-13 13:58 +0000
Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2015-11-13 15:51 +0000
Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 Nyssa <Nyssa@flawlesslogic.com> - 2015-11-13 14:51 -0500
Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 pechter@pechter.dyndns.org (William Pechter) - 2015-11-15 16:44 +0000
Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2015-11-13 18:11 +0000
Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2015-11-13 12:37 +1100
Re: [CM] Coding with dad on the Dragon 32 Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2015-11-11 18:32 +0100
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