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JUST GOT HACKED

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  JUST GOT HACKED Νίκος <nikos.gr33k@gmail.com> - 2013-10-01 12:58 +0300
    Re: JUST GOT HACKED Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-10-01 14:06 +0100
      Re: JUST GOT HACKED Νίκος <nikos.gr33k@gmail.com> - 2013-10-01 16:15 +0300
        Re: JUST GOT HACKED Chris “Kwpolska” Warrick <kwpolska@gmail.com> - 2013-10-01 15:27 +0200
          Re: JUST GOT HACKED Νίκος <nikos.gr33k@gmail.com> - 2013-10-01 16:42 +0300
            Fwd: JUST GOT HACKED Chris “Kwpolska” Warrick <kwpolska@gmail.com> - 2013-10-01 15:56 +0200
              Re: Fwd: JUST GOT HACKED Νίκος <nikos.gr33k@gmail.com> - 2013-10-01 16:58 +0300
            Re: JUST GOT HACKED Alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2013-10-01 13:57 +0000
              Re: JUST GOT HACKED Νίκος <nikos.gr33k@gmail.com> - 2013-10-01 17:00 +0300
                Re: JUST GOT HACKED Daniel Stojanov <daniel.stjnv@gmail.com> - 2013-10-02 00:24 +1000
                  Re: JUST GOT HACKED Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-10-02 02:30 +0000
                    Re: JUST GOT HACKED Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-10-02 08:51 +0200
                    Re: JUST GOT HACKED Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-10-02 08:32 +0100
                  Re: JUST GOT HACKED Ravi Sahni <ganeshsahni07@gmail.com> - 2013-10-01 21:09 -0700
                  Re: JUST GOT HACKED rurpy@yahoo.com - 2013-10-02 09:41 -0700
                Re: JUST GOT HACKED Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2013-10-01 09:56 -0500
                Re: JUST GOT HACKED Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2013-10-01 10:52 -0400
                  Re: JUST GOT HACKED Νίκος <nikos.gr33k@gmail.com> - 2013-10-01 18:34 +0300
                    Re: JUST GOT HACKED alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2013-10-02 09:28 +1000
                Re: JUST GOT HACKED Tim Delaney <timothy.c.delaney@gmail.com> - 2013-10-02 06:45 +1000
                Re: JUST GOT HACKED Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2013-10-02 08:06 +1000
                  Re: JUST GOT HACKED Wayne Werner <waynejwerner@gmail.com> - 2013-10-04 06:23 -0700
                Re: JUST GOT HACKED Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-10-02 08:15 +1000
                Re: JUST GOT HACKED Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-10-01 23:28 +0100
                Improving community discussion (was: JUST GOT HACKED) Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2013-10-02 08:41 +1000
                Re: JUST GOT HACKED Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-10-02 08:29 +0200
                Re: JUST GOT HACKED Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2013-10-02 16:49 +1000
                  Re: JUST GOT HACKED Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2013-10-02 07:29 +0000
                    Mutual respect, bullying, tolerance (was: JUST GOT HACKED) Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2013-10-02 17:42 +1000
                    Re: JUST GOT HACKED Νίκος <nikos.gr33k@gmail.com> - 2013-10-02 13:22 +0300
                      Re: JUST GOT HACKED Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-10-02 20:32 +1000
                        Re: JUST GOT HACKED Νίκος <nikos.gr33k@gmail.com> - 2013-10-02 13:43 +0300
                          Re: JUST GOT HACKED Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-10-02 20:54 +1000
                            Re: JUST GOT HACKED Νίκος <nikos.gr33k@gmail.com> - 2013-10-02 14:01 +0300
                            Re: JUST GOT HACKED Νίκος <nikos.gr33k@gmail.com> - 2013-10-02 14:03 +0300
                              Re: JUST GOT HACKED Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-10-02 21:11 +1000
                              Re: JUST GOT HACKED Heiko Wundram <modelnine@modelnine.org> - 2013-10-02 13:35 +0200
                              Re: JUST GOT HACKED Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-10-02 13:06 +0000
                          Re: JUST GOT HACKED Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2013-10-02 08:09 -0500
                          Re: JUST GOT HACKED Wayne Werner <waynejwerner@gmail.com> - 2013-10-04 06:49 -0700
                      Re: JUST GOT HACKED Denis McMahon <denismfmcmahon@gmail.com> - 2013-10-02 15:50 +0000
                Re: JUST GOT HACKED Ravi Sahni <ganeshsahni07@gmail.com> - 2013-10-02 12:32 +0530
                  Re: JUST GOT HACKED Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2013-10-02 09:08 +0000
                    Re: JUST GOT HACKED Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-10-02 13:28 +0200
                      Re: JUST GOT HACKED Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-10-02 13:17 +0000
                        Re: JUST GOT HACKED Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2013-10-02 16:05 +0000
                        Re: JUST GOT HACKED Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-10-03 09:01 +0200
                          Re: JUST GOT HACKED Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-10-03 11:30 +0000
                            Re: JUST GOT HACKED Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-10-04 15:48 +0200
                  Re: JUST GOT HACKED Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-10-02 13:34 +0000
                  Re: JUST GOT HACKED rurpy@yahoo.com - 2013-10-02 09:44 -0700
                    Re: JUST GOT HACKED Ravi Sahni <ganeshsahni07@gmail.com> - 2013-10-02 23:51 +0530
                  Re: JUST GOT HACKED Piet van Oostrum <piet@vanoostrum.org> - 2013-10-04 17:23 -0400
                Re: JUST GOT HACKED Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2013-10-02 17:24 +1000
                Re: JUST GOT HACKED Ravi Sahni <ganeshsahni07@gmail.com> - 2013-10-02 13:07 +0530
                Re: JUST GOT HACKED Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-10-02 09:51 +0200
                Re: JUST GOT HACKED Ravi Sahni <ganeshsahni07@gmail.com> - 2013-10-02 18:47 +0530
                Goodbye: was JUST GOT HACKED Walter Hurry <walterhurry@lavabit.com> - 2013-10-02 21:13 +0000
                  Re: Goodbye: was JUST GOT HACKED Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2013-10-02 19:05 -0400
                  Re: Goodbye: was JUST GOT HACKED Ravi Sahni <ganeshsahni07@gmail.com> - 2013-10-03 09:21 +0530
                    Re: Goodbye: was JUST GOT HACKED Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-10-03 11:35 +0000
                      Re: Goodbye: was JUST GOT HACKED Ravi Sahni <ganeshsahni07@gmail.com> - 2013-10-03 17:31 +0530
                        Re: Goodbye: was JUST GOT HACKED Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-10-04 02:03 +0000
                  Re: Goodbye: was JUST GOT HACKED Walter Hurry <walterhurry@lavabit.com> - 2013-10-07 12:26 +0000
                    Re: Goodbye: was JUST GOT HACKED Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-10-07 23:34 +1100
                    Re: Goodbye: was JUST GOT HACKED Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2013-10-07 08:12 -0500
                    Re: Goodbye: was JUST GOT HACKED Ravi Sahni <ganeshsahni07@gmail.com> - 2013-10-07 18:40 +0530
            Re: JUST GOT HACKED Pat Johnson <p.johnson125@gmail.com> - 2013-10-08 07:51 -0700
        Re: JUST GOT HACKED Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-10-01 14:28 +0100
        Re: JUST GOT HACKED Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-10-01 19:42 +0100
    Re: JUST GOT HACKED Piet van Oostrum <piet@vanoostrum.org> - 2013-10-01 14:21 -0400
    Re: JUST GOT HACKED Denis McMahon <denismfmcmahon@gmail.com> - 2013-10-01 22:05 +0000
    Re: JUST GOT HACKED Zero Piraeus <z@etiol.net> - 2013-10-01 20:02 -0300
      Re: JUST GOT HACKED Νίκος <nikos.gr33k@gmail.com> - 2013-10-02 02:28 +0300
        Re: JUST GOT HACKED Tim Delaney <timothy.c.delaney@gmail.com> - 2013-10-02 09:48 +1000
        Re: JUST GOT HACKED Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2013-10-01 19:14 -0500
        Re: JUST GOT HACKED Chris “Kwpolska” Warrick <kwpolska@gmail.com> - 2013-10-02 14:47 +0200
        Re: JUST GOT HACKED ishish <ishish@domhain.de> - 2013-10-02 13:57 +0100
      Re: JUST GOT HACKED Νίκος <nikos.gr33k@gmail.com> - 2013-10-02 13:52 +0300
        Re: JUST GOT HACKED feedthetroll@gmx.de - 2013-10-02 04:42 -0700
          Re: JUST GOT HACKED Νίκος <nikos.gr33k@gmail.com> - 2013-10-02 14:55 +0300
          Re: JUST GOT HACKED Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-10-02 12:51 +0000
            Re: JUST GOT HACKED Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-10-02 15:12 +0200
              Re: JUST GOT HACKED Νίκος <nikos.gr33k@gmail.com> - 2013-10-02 16:30 +0300
                Re: JUST GOT HACKED Rod Person <rodperson@rodperson.com> - 2013-10-02 10:31 -0400
            Re: JUST GOT HACKED Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-10-02 23:06 +1000
    Re: JUST GOT HACKED Pat Johnson <p.johnson125@gmail.com> - 2013-10-08 07:53 -0700

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#55354

On Wed, 02 Oct 2013 13:22:25 +0300, Νίκος wrote:

> I was even mocked because all i wanted to do was to optimize code and
> use the best solution there is to it.

No. You were mocked because you insisted that your broken one line code 
was a better looking solution than anyone elses working multi line 
solution. The mocking was because you were failing to recognise that if 
it doesn't work, it's not a solution, no matter how nice it looks.

-- 
Denis McMahon, denismfmcmahon@gmail.com

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#55277

On Wed, Oct 2, 2013 at 12:19 PM, Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> wrote:
> Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> writes:
>
>> Op 02-10-13 00:06, Ben Finney schreef:
>> > This is an unmoderated forum, so we have occasional spates of
>> > persistent nuisances, and those who respond with the maturity level
>> > and impulse control of an average six-year-old.
> […]
>>
>> And what about the impuls control and the maturity of people who can't
>> stop answering [a nuisance], knowing they contribute to the nuisance
>> to the group?
>
> Yes, we are in firm agreement here.

So Ben,Antoon you are saying that Nikos is a minor problem -- spam-like --
Whereas people answering him are a bigger problem??!

I find this real confused!! Why they are answering then?!?!
As far as I can make out everyone who is answering (helping!) doing it
frustratation and disgust.  But still they keep answering and
answering!!

Makes no sense


[Sorry -- old programmer (C,C++ etc) -- new to python. If there is
some secret to this list's culture that I missed will be pleased to be
educated!
]


-- 
- Ravi

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#55291

On Wed, 02 Oct 2013 12:32:57 +0530, Ravi Sahni wrote:

> I find this real confused!! Why they are answering then?!?! As far as I
> can make out everyone who is answering (helping!) doing it frustratation
> and disgust.  But still they keep answering and answering!!
> 
> Makes no sense


If you want to ask why people are answering Nikos' questions, you should 
ask them directly. I won't speak for others, but I'll answer for myself: 
I answer Nikos' questions because:

#1 He is a member of our community who needs help with Python, and this 
is a welcoming community, not an elitist one.

#2 Some of his questions are interesting technical questions, like his 
Unicode problems. I have learnt things from answering his questions. I'm 
sure other people have learnt things from reading those answers.

#3 Even his uninteresting questions deserve answers. Everybody here, I am 
sure, has asked boring or stupid or trivial questions at some stage, 
especially the newbies. Even when the answer is just "This answer is the 
same as last time you asked", the question deserves an answer. This is a 
matter of simple respect. We should treat others in the way we would hope 
to be treated if we were in their shoes.

#4 Explicit is better than implicit. Even if nobody has an answer, or if 
it is off-topic, it is better to explicitly say that we have no answer 
and remove all doubt than to respond with nothing but silence and leave 
open the hope that if you just ask again more loudly someone will answer.

#5 In the long run, encouraging good behaviour is more effective at 
changing people's behaviour than merely punishing bad behaviour.

#6 Consider the first impression of a newbie, joining this community with 
questions about Python. The first thing they see is Nikos asking 
questions, and being ignored, or worse, being abused. Does that send the 
message that we want, that their questions are welcome?


-- 
Steven

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#55311

Op 02-10-13 11:08, Steven D'Aprano schreef:
> On Wed, 02 Oct 2013 12:32:57 +0530, Ravi Sahni wrote:
> 
>> I find this real confused!! Why they are answering then?!?! As far as I
>> can make out everyone who is answering (helping!) doing it frustratation
>> and disgust.  But still they keep answering and answering!!
>>
>> Makes no sense
> 
> 
> If you want to ask why people are answering Nikos' questions, you should 
> ask them directly. I won't speak for others, but I'll answer for myself: 
> I answer Nikos' questions because:
> 
> #1 He is a member of our community who needs help with Python, and this 
> is a welcoming community, not an elitist one.

Come on Steve. You have kill filed people. So you don't think that
merely being a member is enough. Or are you being elistist when you
kill file someone?

> #2 Some of his questions are interesting technical questions, like his 
> Unicode problems. I have learnt things from answering his questions. I'm 
> sure other people have learnt things from reading those answers.

Sure, but not the fourth or fith time the same question comes up in the
same thread.

> #3 Even his uninteresting questions deserve answers. Everybody here, I am 
> sure, has asked boring or stupid or trivial questions at some stage, 
> especially the newbies. Even when the answer is just "This answer is the 
> same as last time you asked", the question deserves an answer. This is a 
> matter of simple respect. We should treat others in the way we would hope 
> to be treated if we were in their shoes.

Steve with Nikos's MO this means you risk a thread with nothing but a
cycle of Nikos repeating his question and others repeating the question
was already answered in the thread.

And you don't treat all others in the way you hope to be treated if you
would be in their shoes. I suspect that should you one day feel so
frustrated you need to vent, you will hope to get treated differently
than how you treat those that need to vent now. You are very selective
about the people in whose shoes you can imagine yourself.

> #4 Explicit is better than implicit. Even if nobody has an answer, or if 
> it is off-topic, it is better to explicitly say that we have no answer 
> and remove all doubt than to respond with nothing but silence and leave 
> open the hope that if you just ask again more loudly someone will answer.
>
> #5 In the long run, encouraging good behaviour is more effective at 
> changing people's behaviour than merely punishing bad behaviour.

But you don't encourage good behaviour by rewarding bad behaviour.
Even when Nikos has ignored previous answers and has ignored advise
to read up on a particular subject, you are still inclined to answer
him. That is not encouraging good bahaviour, that is rewarding bad
behaviour.

All these reasons you have given above, don't differentiate between
Nikos behaving good or badly while asking his questions. You giving a
reason that depends on making such a differentiation doesn't make any
sense after that.

> #6 Consider the first impression of a newbie, joining this community with 
> questions about Python. The first thing they see is Nikos asking 
> questions, and being ignored, or worse, being abused. Does that send the 
> message that we want, that their questions are welcome?

Newbie may be new to python, that doesn't mean they are new to social
interaction. I think people can understand someone has been behaving
badly enough so people won't engage with him anymore.

This reason here implies, that no matter what a nuissance Nikos is,
we should still answer his questions, which blantantly contradicts
your "encourage good behaviour" reason above. There is no encouragement
for good behaviour is you provide an answer anyway, whether the
asker is showing good behaviour or not.

-- 
Antoon Pardon

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#55329

On Wed, 02 Oct 2013 13:28:11 +0200, Antoon Pardon wrote:

> Op 02-10-13 11:08, Steven D'Aprano schreef:
>> On Wed, 02 Oct 2013 12:32:57 +0530, Ravi Sahni wrote:
>> 
>>> I find this real confused!! Why they are answering then?!?! As far as
>>> I can make out everyone who is answering (helping!) doing it
>>> frustratation and disgust.  But still they keep answering and
>>> answering!!
>>>
>>> Makes no sense
>> 
>> 
>> If you want to ask why people are answering Nikos' questions, you
>> should ask them directly. I won't speak for others, but I'll answer for
>> myself: I answer Nikos' questions because:
>> 
>> #1 He is a member of our community who needs help with Python, and this
>> is a welcoming community, not an elitist one.
> 
> Come on Steve. You have kill filed people. So you don't think that
> merely being a member is enough. Or are you being elistist when you kill
> file someone?

When I kill-file somebody, I tell them, and I always make it temporary. 
This is not a matter of elitism, it is a matter of responding to bad 
behaviour and sending a message that it is inappropriate -- if you behave 
badly, I will not see your messages. Think of it as "time out", or for 
sports fans, "the sin bin".

I expect some people have probably kill-filed me, although (to the best 
of me knowledge) none of them have had the elementary decency to tell me.

[...]
> And you don't treat all others in the way you hope to be treated if you
> would be in their shoes. I suspect that should you one day feel so
> frustrated you need to vent, you will hope to get treated differently
> than how you treat those that need to vent now. You are very selective
> about the people in whose shoes you can imagine yourself.

I am only an imperfect human being. I don't always live up to my ideals. 
Sometimes I behave poorly. I have a tendency to react to newbies' poor 
questions with sarcasm. Perhaps a little bit of sarcasm is okay, but 
there is a fine line between making a point and being unnecessarily 
nasty. If I cross that line, I hope that somebody will call me out on it.


-- 
Steven

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#55356

On 2013-10-02, Steven D'Aprano
<steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> wrote:
> When I kill-file somebody, I tell them, and I always make it
> temporary. This is not a matter of elitism, it is a matter of
> responding to bad behaviour and sending a message that it is
> inappropriate -- if you behave badly, I will not see your
> messages. Think of it as "time out", or for sports fans, "the
> sin bin".
>
> I expect some people have probably kill-filed me, although (to
> the best of me knowledge) none of them have had the elementary
> decency to tell me.

I do think there is some value in telling someone why you might
killfile them. But actual *plonks* are, I think, manifestation of
spotlight syndrome.

-- 
Neil Cerutti

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#55404

Op 02-10-13 15:17, Steven D'Aprano schreef:

> [...]
>> And you don't treat all others in the way you hope to be treated if you
>> would be in their shoes. I suspect that should you one day feel so
>> frustrated you need to vent, you will hope to get treated differently
>> than how you treat those that need to vent now. You are very selective
>> about the people in whose shoes you can imagine yourself.
> 
> I am only an imperfect human being. I don't always live up to my ideals. 
> Sometimes I behave poorly. I have a tendency to react to newbies' poor 
> questions with sarcasm. Perhaps a little bit of sarcasm is okay, but 
> there is a fine line between making a point and being unnecessarily 
> nasty. If I cross that line, I hope that somebody will call me out on it.

Steve it is not about failing. It is about not even trying. You don't
follow the principle of treating others in the way you hope to be
treated if you were in their shoes. You just mention the principle if
you think it can support your behaviour.

Your paragraph above is a nice illustration. Suppose you develop a new
interest in which you are now the newbie and you go to a newsgroup or
forum where as a nebie you ask a poor question. Are you hoping they will
answer with sarcasm? I doubt that very much. Yet here you are telling
us sarcasm is okay as long as you don't cross the line instead of
you showing us that you would like to follow this priciple although you
find it hard in a number of circumstances.

-- 
Antoon Pardon

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#55408

On Thu, 03 Oct 2013 09:01:29 +0200, Antoon Pardon wrote:

> You don't
> follow the principle of treating others in the way you hope to be 
> treated if you were in their shoes.
[...] 
> Suppose you develop a new
> interest in which you are now the newbie and you go to a newsgroup or
> forum where as a nebie you ask a poor question. Are you hoping they will
> answer with sarcasm? I doubt that very much.

Then you would be wrong. You don't know me very well at all.

If I asked a dumb question -- not an ignorant question, but a dumb 
question -- then I hope somebody will rub my nose in it. Sarcasm strikes 
me as a good balance between being too namby-pamby to correct me for 
wasting everyone's time, and being abusive.

An ignorant question would be:

"I don't understand closures, can somebody help me?"

or even:

"I wrote this function:

    def f(arg=[]):
        arg.append(1); return arg

and it behaves strangely. Is that a bug in Python?"

This, on the other hand, is a dumb question:

"I wrote a function to print prime numbers, and it didn't work. What did 
I do wrong?"

In the last case, the question simply is foolish. Short of mind-reading, 
how is anyone supposed to know which of the infinite number of errors I 
made? In this case, I would *much* prefer a gentle, or even not-so-
gentle, reminder of my foolishness via a sarcastic retort about looking 
in crystal balls or reading minds, than either being ignored or being 
abused.

And quite frankly, although I might *prefer* a gentle request asking for 
more information, I might *need* something harsher for the lesson to 
really sink in. Negative reinforcement is a legitimate teaching tool, 
provided it doesn't cross the line into abuse.



-- 
Steven

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#55478

Op 03-10-13 13:30, Steven D'Aprano schreef:
> On Thu, 03 Oct 2013 09:01:29 +0200, Antoon Pardon wrote:
> 
>> You don't
>> follow the principle of treating others in the way you hope to be 
>> treated if you were in their shoes.
> [...] 
>> Suppose you develop a new
>> interest in which you are now the newbie and you go to a newsgroup or
>> forum where as a nebie you ask a poor question. Are you hoping they will
>> answer with sarcasm? I doubt that very much.
> 
> Then you would be wrong. You don't know me very well at all.
> 
> If I asked a dumb question -- not an ignorant question, but a dumb 
> question -- then I hope somebody will rub my nose in it. Sarcasm strikes 
> me as a good balance between being too namby-pamby to correct me for 
> wasting everyone's time, and being abusive.

You are contradicting yourself with previous contributions. If you
yourself want to be treated with sarcasm when you ask a poor question
and you follow the priciple of trying to treat people the same way as
you like to be treated should you be in their shoes. Then it doesn't
make sense that you should judge yourself as not living up to your
ideals because of having a tendency to react to newbies' poor questions
with sarcasm, as you did earlier. That tendency would then make you
live up to your ideals.

I have the impression you haven't thought this through much and are just
making it up as you go along.

> And quite frankly, although I might *prefer* a gentle request asking for 
> more information, I might *need* something harsher for the lesson to 
> really sink in. Negative reinforcement is a legitimate teaching tool, 
> provided it doesn't cross the line into abuse.

But need was orginally not a consideration. You certainly never seem to
consider Nikos might need something harsher than a polite answer,
labeling almost any criticism almost automaticcaly as hate.

-- 
Antoon Pardon

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#55336

On 2013-10-02, Ravi Sahni <ganeshsahni07@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 2, 2013 at 12:19 PM, Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> wrote:
>> Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> writes:
>>> Op 02-10-13 00:06, Ben Finney schreef:

>>> And what about the impuls control and the maturity of people who can't
>>> stop answering [a nuisance], knowing they contribute to the nuisance
>>> to the group?
>>
>> Yes, we are in firm agreement here.
>
> So Ben,Antoon you are saying that Nikos is a minor problem --
> spam-like -- Whereas people answering him are a bigger problem??!

I think that's true.  If people stopped responding to Nikos (either
positively or negatively), he'd stop posting and go away.

> I find this real confused!! Why they are answering then?!?!

Many of them are trying to help Nikos.

Others are just poking him with a stick to watch him jump [a Usenet
tradition since before the Internet itself].

-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! I am covered with
                                  at               pure vegetable oil and I am
                              gmail.com            writing a best seller!

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#55360

On 10/02/2013 01:02 AM, Ravi Sahni wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 2, 2013 at 12:19 PM, Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> wrote:
>> Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> writes:
>>
>>> Op 02-10-13 00:06, Ben Finney schreef:
>>> > This is an unmoderated forum, so we have occasional spates of
>>> > persistent nuisances, and those who respond with the maturity level
>>> > and impulse control of an average six-year-old.
>> […]
>>>
>>> And what about the impuls control and the maturity of people who can't
>>> stop answering [a nuisance], knowing they contribute to the nuisance
>>> to the group?
>>
>> Yes, we are in firm agreement here.
> 
> So Ben,Antoon you are saying that Nikos is a minor problem -- spam-like --
> Whereas people answering him are a bigger problem??!
> 
> I find this real confused!! Why they are answering then?!?!
> As far as I can make out everyone who is answering (helping!) doing it
> frustratation and disgust.  But still they keep answering and
> answering!!
> 
> Makes no sense
> 
> [Sorry -- old programmer (C,C++ etc) -- new to python. If there is
> some secret to this list's culture that I missed will be pleased to be
> educated!]

Actually it does make sense when one thinks of the psychology.
It is fun to bash other people on the internet.  There are few
consequences and it makes up for the lack of authority and
control we experience in our real daily lives.  

When someone like Nikos appears and irritates enough people
to exceed a critical mass, it becomes socially ok to bash
him and one gets a _Lord of the Flies_ [*1] effect.

Further it is nothing new -- this kind of spiral down
into chaos and noise of an unmoderated online community
has been happening since the earliest days of the internet.

For decades a useful way to combat this has been summarized
in the phase "don't feed the trolls".  But that only works 
when people are able sacrifice their own fun (giving up the
joy of joining in publicly bashing a scapegoat by simply not
responding to inflammatory posts) for a common good (a mailing 
list with a good signal-to-noise ratio and non-hostile atmosphere.)

It would seem that enough Python regulars here get enjoyment
from the current state of affairs that the situation is likely
to last indefinitely.

The rest of us try to make do by using restraint, filtering and 
alternate forums (Stackoverflow, etc).

----
[*1] http://www.cliffsnotes.com/literature/l/lord-of-the-flies/lord-of-the-flies-at-a-glance

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#55372

On Wed, Oct 2, 2013 at 10:14 PM,  <rurpy@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On 10/02/2013 01:02 AM, Ravi Sahni wrote:
>> On Wed, Oct 2, 2013 at 12:19 PM, Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> wrote:
>>> Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> writes:
>>>
>>>> Op 02-10-13 00:06, Ben Finney schreef:
>>>> > This is an unmoderated forum, so we have occasional spates of
>>>> > persistent nuisances, and those who respond with the maturity level
>>>> > and impulse control of an average six-year-old.
>>> […]
>>>>
>>>> And what about the impuls control and the maturity of people who can't
>>>> stop answering [a nuisance], knowing they contribute to the nuisance
>>>> to the group?
>>>
>>> Yes, we are in firm agreement here.
>>
>> So Ben,Antoon you are saying that Nikos is a minor problem -- spam-like --
>> Whereas people answering him are a bigger problem??!
>>
>> I find this real confused!! Why they are answering then?!?!
>> As far as I can make out everyone who is answering (helping!) doing it
>> frustratation and disgust.  But still they keep answering and
>> answering!!
>>
>> Makes no sense
>>
>> [Sorry -- old programmer (C,C++ etc) -- new to python. If there is
>> some secret to this list's culture that I missed will be pleased to be
>> educated!]
>
> Actually it does make sense when one thinks of the psychology.
> It is fun to bash other people on the internet.  There are few
> consequences and it makes up for the lack of authority and
> control we experience in our real daily lives.
>
> When someone like Nikos appears and irritates enough people
> to exceed a critical mass, it becomes socially ok to bash
> him and one gets a _Lord of the Flies_ [*1] effect.
>
> Further it is nothing new -- this kind of spiral down
> into chaos and noise of an unmoderated online community
> has been happening since the earliest days of the internet.
>
> For decades a useful way to combat this has been summarized
> in the phase "don't feed the trolls".  But that only works
> when people are able sacrifice their own fun (giving up the
> joy of joining in publicly bashing a scapegoat by simply not
> responding to inflammatory posts) for a common good (a mailing
> list with a good signal-to-noise ratio and non-hostile atmosphere.)
>
> It would seem that enough Python regulars here get enjoyment
> from the current state of affairs that the situation is likely
> to last indefinitely.
>
> The rest of us try to make do by using restraint, filtering and
> alternate forums (Stackoverflow, etc).
>
> ----
> [*1] http://www.cliffsnotes.com/literature/l/lord-of-the-flies/lord-of-the-flies-at-a-glance

That (link) is an ugly stupid view of humanness.
Why should I want to piss on you and flame you and shoot you for fun?
I have never met anyone like that and dont believe that anyone is like that.
[We are told about Hitler and Stalin and so on. I have never met them :-) ]
And if you believe everyone is like that -- sorry - please go to
psychatrist -- serious!

Basically I am a software engineer. A engineer believes in right design.
Mess happens with wrong design. Something is making ppl behave crazy.
What is it?  If we are engineers we should do analysis.

No I dont think it is Nikos. I think it is ppl answering nonsense
questions and shouting and keep on answering nonsense with more
nonsense and keep on shouting. Why this crazy behavior?? So far Anton
has given me the best explanaton

-- 
Ravi

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#56148

Ravi Sahni <ganeshsahni07@gmail.com> writes:

> I find this real confused!! Why they are answering then?!?!
> As far as I can make out everyone who is answering (helping!) doing it
> frustratation and disgust.  But still they keep answering and
> answering!!

I answered him because I wanted to help him. I also find it interesting to solve Python problems. 

I did not like Nikos' arrogance, ignorance and his refusal to use perfectly good solutions.
-- 
Piet van Oostrum <piet@vanoostrum.org>
WWW: http://pietvanoostrum.com/
PGP key: [8DAE142BE17999C4]

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#55278

Ravi Sahni <ganeshsahni07@gmail.com> writes:

> So Ben,Antoon you are saying that [demands for off-topic help with
> demonstrated history of unwillingness to learn] is a minor problem […]
> Whereas [baiting and enabling that behaviour is] a bigger problem??!

(I edited the above to focus on behaviour, not people. Let's not vilify
a person when what is objectionable is the behaviour.)

No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying that both those behaviours are
significant nuisances, both are against our community guidelines of
mutual respect, and both should stop.

Comparing the magnitude of those problems to see which is worse isn't of
interest to me, they're both objectionable to the point of noise and
disruption.

I'd like them both to stop, in the interest of keeping this forum
functional for its intended purposes.

-- 
 \       “If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; |
  `\     but if you really make them think, they'll hate you.” —Donald |
_o__)                                             Robert Perry Marquis |
Ben Finney

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#55283

On Wed, Oct 2, 2013 at 12:54 PM, Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> wrote:
>
> Ravi Sahni <ganeshsahni07@gmail.com> writes:
>
> > So Ben,Antoon you are saying that [demands for off-topic help with
> > demonstrated history of unwillingness to learn] is a minor problem […]
> > Whereas [baiting and enabling that behaviour is] a bigger problem??!
>
> (I edited the above to focus on behaviour, not people. Let's not vilify
> a person when what is objectionable is the behaviour.)

Good... Sorry

>
> No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying that both those behaviours are
> significant nuisances, both are against our community guidelines of
> mutual respect, and both should stop.
>
> Comparing the magnitude of those problems to see which is worse isn't of
> interest to me, they're both objectionable to the point of noise and
> disruption.
>
> I'd like them both to stop, in the interest of keeping this forum
> functional for its intended purposes.
>

Thanks Ben   for clarification and understanding

-- 
- Ravi

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#55284

Op 02-10-13 09:02, Ravi Sahni schreef:
> On Wed, Oct 2, 2013 at 12:19 PM, Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> wrote:
>> Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> writes:
>>
>>> Op 02-10-13 00:06, Ben Finney schreef:
>>>> This is an unmoderated forum, so we have occasional spates of
>>>> persistent nuisances, and those who respond with the maturity level
>>>> and impulse control of an average six-year-old.
>> […]
>>>
>>> And what about the impuls control and the maturity of people who can't
>>> stop answering [a nuisance], knowing they contribute to the nuisance
>>> to the group?
>>
>> Yes, we are in firm agreement here.
> 
> So Ben,Antoon you are saying that Nikos is a minor problem -- spam-like --
> Whereas people answering him are a bigger problem??!
> 
> I find this real confused!! Why they are answering then?!?!
> As far as I can make out everyone who is answering (helping!) doing it
> frustratation and disgust.  But still they keep answering and
> answering!!

You should understand that what is a bigger problem and what is a minor
problem is a personal, subjective judgement and people come to different
conclusions.

So group1 finds Nikos a minor nuisance and is willing to answer him.
Probably because it gives them warm fuzzy feelings knowing they tried
to help someone or because they found the problem interresting to solve.

Now group2 may find Nikos himself not that big a nuisance but they
certainly find Nikos in combination with group1 a major nuisance.
Because it keeps the cycle going and even if they kill file Nikos,
they keep being confronted with his contributions through the responses
of group1.

So frustration builds for those in group2, until it reaches a level
that some of them feel the need to vent that frustration. That can
sometimes be rather ugly to observe and I am sure that some venters
weren't that happy with their own reaction afterwards, but I think
it is an understandable, human reaction.

Now for a number of people in group1, the venting of group2 is a
major nuisance and they start venting their own frustration with that.
Unfortunately, their own need for venting doesn't create any empathy
for the need of group2 for venting. They only see groups2 as the
cause for their own frustration with very little willingness to see
their own contribution to the original built up.

-- 
Antoon Pardon

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#55343

On Wed, Oct 2, 2013 at 1:21 PM, Antoon Pardon
<antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> wrote:
> Op 02-10-13 09:02, Ravi Sahni schreef:
>> On Wed, Oct 2, 2013 at 12:19 PM, Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> wrote:
>>> Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> writes:
>>>
>>>> Op 02-10-13 00:06, Ben Finney schreef:
>>>>> This is an unmoderated forum, so we have occasional spates of
>>>>> persistent nuisances, and those who respond with the maturity level
>>>>> and impulse control of an average six-year-old.
>>> […]
>>>>
>>>> And what about the impuls control and the maturity of people who can't
>>>> stop answering [a nuisance], knowing they contribute to the nuisance
>>>> to the group?
>>>
>>> Yes, we are in firm agreement here.
>>
>> So Ben,Antoon you are saying that Nikos is a minor problem -- spam-like --
>> Whereas people answering him are a bigger problem??!
>>
>> I find this real confused!! Why they are answering then?!?!
>> As far as I can make out everyone who is answering (helping!) doing it
>> frustratation and disgust.  But still they keep answering and
>> answering!!
>
> You should understand that what is a bigger problem and what is a minor
> problem is a personal, subjective judgement and people come to different
> conclusions.
>
> So group1 finds Nikos a minor nuisance and is willing to answer him.
> Probably because it gives them warm fuzzy feelings knowing they tried
> to help someone or because they found the problem interresting to solve.
>
> Now group2 may find Nikos himself not that big a nuisance but they
> certainly find Nikos in combination with group1 a major nuisance.
> Because it keeps the cycle going and even if they kill file Nikos,
> they keep being confronted with his contributions through the responses
> of group1.
>
> So frustration builds for those in group2, until it reaches a level
> that some of them feel the need to vent that frustration. That can
> sometimes be rather ugly to observe and I am sure that some venters
> weren't that happy with their own reaction afterwards, but I think
> it is an understandable, human reaction.
>
> Now for a number of people in group1, the venting of group2 is a
> major nuisance and they start venting their own frustration with that.
> Unfortunately, their own need for venting doesn't create any empathy
> for the need of group2 for venting. They only see groups2 as the
> cause for their own frustration with very little willingness to see
> their own contribution to the original built up.

Thanks Antoon for explaining so clearly and taking trouble to explain.
As said above, Im newbie to python and to this group, (done C, C++
before) and was too confused by the BS to ask/speak.
Daniel's post gave me courage to ask.

Hope to get back to python now!

-- 
Ravi

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#55381 — Goodbye: was JUST GOT HACKED

On Wed, 02 Oct 2013 09:51:26 +0200, Antoon Pardon wrote:

> Op 02-10-13 09:02, Ravi Sahni schreef:
>> On Wed, Oct 2, 2013 at 12:19 PM, Ben Finney
>> <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> wrote:
>>> Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> writes:
>>>
>>>> Op 02-10-13 00:06, Ben Finney schreef:
>>>>> This is an unmoderated forum, so we have occasional spates of
>>>>> persistent nuisances, and those who respond with the maturity level
>>>>> and impulse control of an average six-year-old.
>>> […]
>>>>
>>>> And what about the impuls control and the maturity of people who
>>>> can't stop answering [a nuisance], knowing they contribute to the
>>>> nuisance to the group?
>>>
>>> Yes, we are in firm agreement here.
>> 
>> So Ben,Antoon you are saying that Nikos is a minor problem -- spam-like
>> -- Whereas people answering him are a bigger problem??!
>> 
>> I find this real confused!! Why they are answering then?!?!
>> As far as I can make out everyone who is answering (helping!) doing it
>> frustratation and disgust.  But still they keep answering and
>> answering!!
> 
> You should understand that what is a bigger problem and what is a minor
> problem is a personal, subjective judgement and people come to different
> conclusions.
> 
> So group1 finds Nikos a minor nuisance and is willing to answer him.
> Probably because it gives them warm fuzzy feelings knowing they tried to
> help someone or because they found the problem interresting to solve.
> 
> Now group2 may find Nikos himself not that big a nuisance but they
> certainly find Nikos in combination with group1 a major nuisance.
> Because it keeps the cycle going and even if they kill file Nikos,
> they keep being confronted with his contributions through the responses
> of group1.
> 
> So frustration builds for those in group2, until it reaches a level that
> some of them feel the need to vent that frustration. That can sometimes
> be rather ugly to observe and I am sure that some venters weren't that
> happy with their own reaction afterwards, but I think it is an
> understandable, human reaction.
> 
> Now for a number of people in group1, the venting of group2 is a major
> nuisance and they start venting their own frustration with that.
> Unfortunately, their own need for venting doesn't create any empathy for
> the need of group2 for venting. They only see groups2 as the cause for
> their own frustration with very little willingness to see their own
> contribution to the original built up.

Ding ding! Nikos is simply trolling. It's easy enough to killfile him but 
inconvenient to skip all the answers to his lengthy threads. If only 
people would just ignore him!

Anyway, the NG/list is spoiled for me. Goodbye.

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#55389 — Re: Goodbye: was JUST GOT HACKED

On 10/2/2013 5:13 PM, Walter Hurry wrote:

> Ding ding! Nikos is simply trolling. It's easy enough to killfile him but
> inconvenient to skip all the answers to his lengthy threads.

Use news.gmane.org newsgroup gmane.comp.python.general and current 
Thunderbird or other newsreader with 'Ignore thread' (right-click 
context menu) option.

Even without that, a read should have the option to expand or condense 
threads. I just read what I want and mark all as read when done.

 > If only people would just ignore him!

I view troll-feeding as a form of trolling.

> Anyway, the NG/list is spoiled for me. Goodbye.

I hope you try again someday.

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy

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#55402 — Re: Goodbye: was JUST GOT HACKED

On Thu, Oct 3, 2013 at 2:43 AM, Walter Hurry <walterhurry@lavabit.com> wrote:
> Ding ding! Nikos is simply trolling. It's easy enough to killfile him but
> inconvenient to skip all the answers to his lengthy threads. If only
> people would just ignore him!

Hello Walter Hurry please wait!

Did I do/say something wrong?!
If one of us should go it should be me -- Im just a newbie here. I
have little time/efforts invested in python anyway.
I was for a long time wasting time choosing upgrading myself from
C/C++ to python or javascript.
javascript -- universal and unavoidable in today's web world, but a mess
python -- looks cleaner and well-designed (and not for heavyweight
phds like FP languages like haskell )

So I finally went with python

Now given the mess out here I need to rethink anyway!


-- 
Ravi

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