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Re: the Gravity of Python 2

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  Re: the Gravity of Python 2 Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-01-07 11:19 +1100
    Re: the Gravity of Python 2 Martijn Faassen <faassen@startifact.com> - 2014-01-07 13:54 +0100
      Re: the Gravity of Python 2 Martijn Faassen <faassen@startifact.com> - 2014-01-07 17:07 +0100
        Re: the Gravity of Python 2 Martijn Faassen <faassen@startifact.com> - 2014-01-07 17:42 +0100
          Re: the Gravity of Python 2 Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-01-08 04:00 +1100
            Re: the Gravity of Python 2 Martijn Faassen <faassen@startifact.com> - 2014-01-08 13:36 +0100
              Re: the Gravity of Python 2 Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-01-08 23:46 +1100
                Re: the Gravity of Python 2 Martijn Faassen <faassen@startifact.com> - 2014-01-08 16:08 +0100
              Re: the Gravity of Python 2 Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-01-09 00:01 +1100
                Re: the Gravity of Python 2 Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-01-08 14:08 +0000
                Re: the Gravity of Python 2 Martijn Faassen <faassen@startifact.com> - 2014-01-08 16:22 +0100
                  Re: the Gravity of Python 2 Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-01-09 02:39 +1100
                  Re: the Gravity of Python 2 Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-01-08 15:50 +0000
                  Re: the Gravity of Python 2 Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-01-09 08:55 +1100
              Re: the Gravity of Python 2 Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-01-08 09:15 -0500
                Re: the Gravity of Python 2 Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-01-08 14:30 +0000
                  Re: the Gravity of Python 2 Martijn Faassen <faassen@startifact.com> - 2014-01-08 16:26 +0100
                  Re: the Gravity of Python 2 Kevin Walzer <kw@codebykevin.com> - 2014-01-08 18:42 -0500
                    Re: the Gravity of Python 2 Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-01-08 20:27 -0500
                      Re: the Gravity of Python 2 Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-01-09 12:47 +1100
                        Re: the Gravity of Python 2 Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-01-08 21:25 -0500
                          Re: the Gravity of Python 2 Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-01-09 14:17 +1100
                            Re: the Gravity of Python 2 Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-01-08 22:35 -0500
                              Re: the Gravity of Python 2 Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-01-09 15:03 +1100
                                Re: the Gravity of Python 2 Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-01-08 23:29 -0500
                                  Re: the Gravity of Python 2 Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-01-09 15:34 +1100
                                  Re: the Gravity of Python 2 Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-01-09 15:38 +1100
                                  Re: the Gravity of Python 2 Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2014-01-08 21:31 -0800
                                  Re: the Gravity of Python 2 Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-01-09 17:34 +1100
                                  Re: the Gravity of Python 2 Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-01-09 17:57 +1100
                                  Re: the Gravity of Python 2 Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-01-09 18:56 +1100
                                    Re: the Gravity of Python 2 Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-01-09 09:14 -0500
                                      Re: the Gravity of Python 2 Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-01-10 01:57 +1100
                                        Re: the Gravity of Python 2 Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-01-09 08:21 -0800
                                          Re: the Gravity of Python 2 Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-01-09 16:30 +0000
                                            Re: the Gravity of Python 2 Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-01-09 09:07 -0800
                                              Re: the Gravity of Python 2 Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-01-09 18:20 +0000
                                              Re: the Gravity of Python 2 Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2014-01-09 10:29 -0800
                                          Re: the Gravity of Python 2 Tim Golden <mail@timgolden.me.uk> - 2014-01-09 16:41 +0000
                                          RE: the Gravity of Python 2 Nick Cash <nick.cash@npcinternational.com> - 2014-01-09 16:42 +0000
                                          Re: the Gravity of Python 2 Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-01-09 16:50 +0000
                                          Re: the Gravity of Python 2 Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-01-10 07:35 +1100
                                            Re: the Gravity of Python 2 Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-01-09 12:54 -0800
                                              Re: the Gravity of Python 2 Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-01-10 08:12 +1100
                                      Re: the Gravity of Python 2 Dan Sommers <dan@tombstonezero.net> - 2014-01-09 15:01 +0000
                                        Re: the Gravity of Python 2 Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-01-10 02:17 +1100
                                      Re: the Gravity of Python 2 Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2014-01-09 07:56 -0800
                                  Re: the Gravity of Python 2 Kushal Kumaran <kushal.kumaran@gmail.com> - 2014-01-09 11:36 +0530
                                  Re: the Gravity of Python 2 Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-01-09 08:53 +0000
                                  Re: the Gravity of Python 2 Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-01-09 20:03 +1100
                                  Re: the Gravity of Python 2 Kushal Kumaran <kushal.kumaran@gmail.com> - 2014-01-09 14:51 +0530
                                    Re: the Gravity of Python 2 Piet van Oostrum <piet@vanoostrum.org> - 2014-01-09 12:26 +0100
                                  Re: the Gravity of Python 2 Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-01-09 09:51 +0000
                                  Re: the Gravity of Python 2 Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-01-10 00:35 +1100
                                    Re: the Gravity of Python 2 Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-01-09 09:32 -0500
                          Re: the Gravity of Python 2 Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-01-09 14:34 +1100
                            Re: the Gravity of Python 2 Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-01-08 22:44 -0500
                          Re: the Gravity of Python 2 Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-01-09 14:42 +1100
                            Re: the Gravity of Python 2 Piet van Oostrum <piet@vanoostrum.org> - 2014-01-09 15:06 +0100
                              Re: the Gravity of Python 2 Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-01-10 01:34 +1100
                                Re: the Gravity of Python 2 Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-01-09 09:44 -0500
                                Re: the Gravity of Python 2 Piet van Oostrum <piet@vanoostrum.org> - 2014-01-09 17:51 +0100
                                  Re: the Gravity of Python 2 Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-01-10 07:43 +1100
                          Time zones and why they change so damned often (was: the Gravity of Python 2) Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-01-09 14:54 +1100
                          Re: Time zones and why they change so damned often (was: the Gravity of Python 2) Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-01-09 15:14 +1100
                            Re: Time zones and why they change so damned often (was: the Gravity of Python 2) Peter Pearson <ppearson@nowhere.invalid> - 2014-01-10 18:22 +0000
                              Re: Time zones and why they change so damned often MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2014-01-10 18:48 +0000
                              Re: Time zones and why they change so damned often Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-01-10 18:53 +0000
                                Re: Time zones and why they change so damned often Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2014-01-10 19:55 +0000
                                  Re: Time zones and why they change so damned often Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2014-01-10 19:45 -0500
                                  Re: Time zones and why they change so damned often Gene Heskett <gheskett@wdtv.com> - 2014-01-10 21:53 -0500
                              Re: Time zones and why they change so damned often (was: the Gravity of Python 2) Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2014-01-10 19:43 -0500
                              Re: Time zones and why they change so damned often (was: the Gravity of Python 2) Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-01-10 19:49 -0500
                          Re: the Gravity of Python 2 Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-01-09 07:10 +0000
                          Re: Time zones and why they change so damned often Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-01-09 07:17 +0000
                            Re: Time zones and why they change so damned often Alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2014-01-09 12:07 +0000
                              Re: Time zones and why they change so damned often Bob Martin <bob.martin@excite.com> - 2014-01-10 07:31 +0000
                                Re: Time zones and why they change so damned often Alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2014-01-10 09:04 +0000
                                  Re: Time zones and why they change so damned often Bob Martin <bob.martin@excite.com> - 2014-01-11 07:52 +0000
                                    Re: Time zones and why they change so damned often Alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2014-01-11 11:10 +0000
                                      Re: Time zones and why they change so damned often Alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2014-01-11 11:14 +0000
                                      Re: Time zones and why they change so damned often Alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2014-01-11 11:14 +0000
                          Re: Time zones and why they change so damned often (was: the Gravity
 of Python 2) Dave Angel <davea@davea.name> - 2014-01-09 10:34 -0500
                      Re: the Gravity of Python 2 Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2014-01-08 17:52 -0800
                      Re: the Gravity of Python 2 Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-01-09 13:09 +1100
                      Re: the Gravity of Python 2 Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-01-09 08:42 +0000
                      Re: the Gravity of Python 2 Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2014-01-09 08:01 -0800
                      Re: the Gravity of Python 2 Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-01-09 18:18 +0000
                      Re: the Gravity of Python 2 Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2014-01-09 10:33 -0800
                Re: the Gravity of Python 2 Pedro Larroy <pedro.larroy.lists@gmail.com> - 2014-01-08 15:45 +0100
                Re: the Gravity of Python 2 Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-01-09 01:50 +1100
                  Re: the Gravity of Python 2 Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2014-01-08 15:06 +0000
                    Re: the Gravity of Python 2 Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-01-09 02:31 +1100
                Re: the Gravity of Python 2 Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-01-08 15:45 -0500
              Re: the Gravity of Python 2 Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-01-08 14:15 +0000

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#63601

In article <mailman.5259.1389278063.18130.python-list@python.org>,
 Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> wrote:

> Actually, the nearest parallel to Unicode is probably "use UTC
> everywhere", which makes for a superb internal representation and
> transmission format, but bugs most human beings :)

It is, by the way, the solution that the aviation industry has adopted.  
All communication between aircraft and controllers is in UTC (pronounced 
"zulu").  Weather reports and forecasts are in UTC.  Regulatory notices 
are in UTC.  The time when one edition of a chart will be replaced by 
the next edition is in UTC.

If I'm somewhere over the Atlantic, talking to a controller sitting in 
Shannon, Ireland, negotiating when I'm going to be allowed to continue 
on my route from New York to Istambul, the last thing I want is anybody 
to be confused about timezones.

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#63617

Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> writes:

> On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 1:06 AM, Piet van Oostrum <piet@vanoostrum.org> wrote:
>> Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 2:34 PM, Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> wrote:
>>>> With time zones, as with text encodings, there is a single technically
>>>> elegant solution (for text: Unicode; for time zones: twelve simple,
>>>> static zones that never change)
>>>
>>> Twelve or twenty-four? Or are you thinking we should all be an even
>>> number of hours away from UTC, which would also work?
>>
>> Even 24 doesn't take into account DST.
>
> That was the point. We can abolish codepages by using Unicode, which
> covers everything. We could abolish time messes by having every
> locality settle permanently on one timezone; Ben's theory demands that
> all timezones be some integer number of hours +/- UTC, which IMO is
> optional, but mainly it should be easy to figure out any two
> locations' difference: just subtract one's UTC offset from the
> other's. Similarly, you can calculate the difference between two times
> at the same location by simple subtraction; currently, you also have
> to consider the possibility of a DST switch (from noon to noon across
> a switch is either 23 or 25 hours).
>
> Actually, the nearest parallel to Unicode is probably "use UTC
> everywhere", which makes for a superb internal representation and
> transmission format, but bugs most human beings :)

I don't know how other countries do it, but here, when the clock goes back, it goes from 03:00 to 02:00. So I wonder how they communicate when your plane leaves at 02:30 in that night. Which 02:30? In that case using UTC may come out handy, if it would be understood. Or do the planes just stop leaving during that interval? Not that there will be many leaving during that time in general, I presume.

-- 
Piet van Oostrum <piet@vanoostrum.org>
WWW: http://pietvanoostrum.com/
PGP key: [8DAE142BE17999C4]

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#63632

On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 3:51 AM, Piet van Oostrum <piet@vanoostrum.org> wrote:
> I don't know how other countries do it, but here, when the clock goes back, it goes from 03:00 to 02:00. So I wonder how they communicate when your plane leaves at 02:30 in that night. Which 02:30? In that case using UTC may come out handy, if it would be understood. Or do the planes just stop leaving during that interval? Not that there will be many leaving during that time in general, I presume.
>

The fundamental is that the timezone changes. Times roll from 02:00
Daylight time through 02:30 Daylight time to the instant before 03:00
Daylight time, which doesn't happen, and instead time jumps to 02:00
Standard time and starts rolling forward.

How this is adequately communicated on the plane ticket is a separate
issue, though, and as I've never actually flown during a DST
changeover, I wouldn't know. I'm sure there would be planes departing
during those two hours (neither airlines nor airports can afford to
have two, or even one, "dead" hour!), so this must have been solved
somehow. Maybe people could figure it out from the "check-in by" time?
For instance, last time I flew, the plane departed at 0240 local time
(but this was in July, so not anywhere near changeover), and check-in
opened at 2340; so if it were the "other" 0240, then check-in would
have opened at 0040 instead. Either that, or they'll tell everyone to
arrive in time for the first instance of that time, and then just make
us all wait around for an extra hour....

ChrisA

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#63563 — Time zones and why they change so damned often (was: the Gravity of Python 2)

Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> writes:

> On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 2:34 PM, Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> wrote:
> > With time zones, as with text encodings, there is a single
> > technically elegant solution (for text: Unicode; for time zones:
> > twelve simple, static zones that never change)
>
> Twelve or twenty-four?

Twenty-four time zones, yes. My mistake.

I'm currently reading <URL:http://savingthedaylight.com/> David Prerau's
_Saving the Daylight: Why We Put The Clocks Forward_. It's got an
acknowledged bias, that DST is overall a good thing; I disagree strongly
with that position. But it's also very well researched and engagingly
written.

Not only does it explain the motivations and history of the present
system of Daylight Shifting Time (or, as the world misleadingly calls
it, Daylight “Saving” Time), it goes into the history that pre-dates
that system and led to the system of time zones at all.

I'm approaching it with the goal of knowing better what I'm talking
about when I advocate scrapping the whole DST system :-)

-- 
 \              “Only the educated are free.” —Epictetus, _Discourses_ |
  `\                                                                   |
_o__)                                                                  |
Ben Finney

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#63565 — Re: Time zones and why they change so damned often (was: the Gravity of Python 2)

On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 2:54 PM, Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> wrote:
> I'm approaching it with the goal of knowing better what I'm talking
> about when I advocate scrapping the whole DST system :-)

I would definitely support the scrapping of DST. I'm less sure that we
need exactly 24 timezones around the world, though. It's not nearly as
big a problem to have the half-hour and quarter-hour timezones -
though it would be easier if timezone were strictly an integer number
of hours. But DST is the real pain.

What I find, most of the time, is that it's Americans who can't handle
DST. I run an international Dungeons and Dragons campaign (we play
online, and new players are most welcome, as are people watching!),
and the Aussies (myself included) know to check UTC time, the Brits
and Europeans check UTC or just know what UTC is, and the Americans
say "Doesn't that happen at 8 o'clock Eastern time?" and get confused.
I don't understand this. Are my players drawn exclusively from the
pool of people who've never worked with anyone in Arizona [1]? Yes,
I'm stereotyping a bit here, and not every US player has had problems
with this, but it's the occasional US player who knows to check, and
the rare European, British, or Aussie player who doesn't.

In any case, the world-wide abolition of DST would eliminate the
problem. The only remaining problem would be reminding people to
change the batteries in their smoke detectors.

ChrisA

[1] For those who aren't right up on timezone trivia, AZ has no DST.
Similarly the Australian state of Queensland does not shift its
clocks.

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#63650 — Re: Time zones and why they change so damned often (was: the Gravity of Python 2)

On Thu, 9 Jan 2014 15:14:55 +1100, Chris Angelico wrote:
[snip]
> What I find, most of the time, is that it's Americans who can't handle
> DST. I run an international Dungeons and Dragons campaign (we play
> online, and new players are most welcome, as are people watching!),
> and the Aussies (myself included) know to check UTC time, the Brits
> and Europeans check UTC or just know what UTC is, and the Americans
> say "Doesn't that happen at 8 o'clock Eastern time?" and get confused.

Around 30 years ago, the Wall Street Journal ran an opinion piece
advocating the abandonment of time zones and the unification of the
globe into a single glorious time zone.  After enumerating the 
efficiencies to be achieved by this system, the writer briefly
addressed the question of whose time zone would become the global
standard, promptly arriving at the conclusion that, due to the
concentration of important commerce, the logical choice was the
east coast of the United States.

My point: we deserve the teasing.

-- 
To email me, substitute nowhere->spamcop, invalid->net.

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#63652 — Re: Time zones and why they change so damned often

On 2014-01-10 18:22, Peter Pearson wrote:
> On Thu, 9 Jan 2014 15:14:55 +1100, Chris Angelico wrote:
> [snip]
>> What I find, most of the time, is that it's Americans who can't handle
>> DST. I run an international Dungeons and Dragons campaign (we play
>> online, and new players are most welcome, as are people watching!),
>> and the Aussies (myself included) know to check UTC time, the Brits
>> and Europeans check UTC or just know what UTC is, and the Americans
>> say "Doesn't that happen at 8 o'clock Eastern time?" and get confused.
>
> Around 30 years ago, the Wall Street Journal ran an opinion piece
> advocating the abandonment of time zones and the unification of the
> globe into a single glorious time zone.  After enumerating the
> efficiencies to be achieved by this system, the writer briefly
> addressed the question of whose time zone would become the global
> standard, promptly arriving at the conclusion that, due to the
> concentration of important commerce, the logical choice was the
> east coast of the United States.
>
What a silly idea!

The logical choice is UTC. :-)

> My point: we deserve the teasing.
>

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#63653 — Re: Time zones and why they change so damned often

On 10/01/2014 18:48, MRAB wrote:
> On 2014-01-10 18:22, Peter Pearson wrote:
>> On Thu, 9 Jan 2014 15:14:55 +1100, Chris Angelico wrote:
>> [snip]
>>> What I find, most of the time, is that it's Americans who can't handle
>>> DST. I run an international Dungeons and Dragons campaign (we play
>>> online, and new players are most welcome, as are people watching!),
>>> and the Aussies (myself included) know to check UTC time, the Brits
>>> and Europeans check UTC or just know what UTC is, and the Americans
>>> say "Doesn't that happen at 8 o'clock Eastern time?" and get confused.
>>
>> Around 30 years ago, the Wall Street Journal ran an opinion piece
>> advocating the abandonment of time zones and the unification of the
>> globe into a single glorious time zone.  After enumerating the
>> efficiencies to be achieved by this system, the writer briefly
>> addressed the question of whose time zone would become the global
>> standard, promptly arriving at the conclusion that, due to the
>> concentration of important commerce, the logical choice was the
>> east coast of the United States.
>>
> What a silly idea!
>
> The logical choice is UTC. :-)

Hell will freeze over first.  But apparently it already has in 
Minnesota.  Drat, drat and double drat!!!

>
>> My point: we deserve the teasing.
>>
>


-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence

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#63658 — Re: Time zones and why they change so damned often

On 2014-01-10, Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

> Hell will freeze over first.  But apparently it already has in 
> Minnesota.  Drat, drat and double drat!!!

It got darned cold here in Minnesota on Monday (-23F in Minneapolis,
-35F in Embarass), but Hell is in Michigan -- where it only got down
to -15F.

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell,_Michigan
  http://www.roadsideamerica.com/tip/2456

  

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#63678 — Re: Time zones and why they change so damned often

On Fri, 10 Jan 2014 19:55:37 +0000 (UTC), Grant Edwards
<invalid@invalid.invalid> declaimed the following:

>It got darned cold here in Minnesota on Monday (-23F in Minneapolis,
>-35F in Embarass), but Hell is in Michigan -- where it only got down
>to -15F.

	Does that mean that Hell should be Embarassed?
-- 
	Wulfraed                 Dennis Lee Bieber         AF6VN
    wlfraed@ix.netcom.com    HTTP://wlfraed.home.netcom.com/

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#63689 — Re: Time zones and why they change so damned often

On Friday 10 January 2014 21:52:49 Dennis Lee Bieber did opine:

> On Fri, 10 Jan 2014 19:55:37 +0000 (UTC), Grant Edwards
> 
> <invalid@invalid.invalid> declaimed the following:
> >It got darned cold here in Minnesota on Monday (-23F in Minneapolis,
> >-35F in Embarass), but Hell is in Michigan -- where it only got down
> >to -15F.
> 
> 	Does that mean that Hell should be Embarassed?

Nah, they are used to it by now.

Cheers, Gene
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>

May cause drowsiness.
A pen in the hand of this president is far more
dangerous than 200 million guns in the hands of
         law-abiding citizens.

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#63676 — Re: Time zones and why they change so damned often (was: the Gravity of Python 2)

On 10 Jan 2014 18:22:41 GMT, Peter Pearson <ppearson@nowhere.invalid>
declaimed the following:

>Around 30 years ago, the Wall Street Journal ran an opinion piece
>advocating the abandonment of time zones and the unification of the
>globe into a single glorious time zone.  After enumerating the 
>efficiencies to be achieved by this system, the writer briefly
>addressed the question of whose time zone would become the global
>standard, promptly arriving at the conclusion that, due to the
>concentration of important commerce, the logical choice was the
>east coast of the United States.
>

	Why show favoritism...

	Clocks should be calibrated to show Sidereal time...
-- 
	Wulfraed                 Dennis Lee Bieber         AF6VN
    wlfraed@ix.netcom.com    HTTP://wlfraed.home.netcom.com/

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#63677 — Re: Time zones and why they change so damned often (was: the Gravity of Python 2)

In article <bjas3gFg58aU1@mid.individual.net>,
 Peter Pearson <ppearson@nowhere.invalid> wrote:

> Around 30 years ago, the Wall Street Journal ran an opinion piece
> advocating the abandonment of time zones and the unification of the
> globe into a single glorious time zone.  After enumerating the 
> efficiencies to be achieved by this system, the writer briefly
> addressed the question of whose time zone would become the global
> standard, promptly arriving at the conclusion that, due to the
> concentration of important commerce, the logical choice was the
> east coast of the United States.

30 years ago, that would have been a plausible choice.  Today, not so 
much.

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#63578

On 09/01/2014 03:42, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 2:34 PM, Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> wrote:
>> [ a bunch of stuff that I totally agree with ]
>
> No response needed here :)
>
> So I was wrong on the specific example of .today(), but asking the
> question the other way is at least helpful. Maybe the best solution is
> exactly what Roy already posted, or maybe there's some other way to
> achieve that. In any case, there is a solution, albeit not as clean as
> I would have liked.
>
>> With time zones, as with text encodings, there is a single technically
>> elegant solution (for text: Unicode; for time zones: twelve simple,
>> static zones that never change)
>
> Twelve or twenty-four? Or are you thinking we should all be an even
> number of hours away from UTC, which would also work?
>
> ChrisA
>

I don't care what anyone says, I'm sticking with GMT.  ("UTC" == 
"Universal Coordinated Time") == False.  And what the hell *IS* 
coordinated?  If that was the case this part of this thread wouldn't 
exist :)

Perhaps the solution is the Chinese way, don't have timezones at all.

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence

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#63579 — Re: Time zones and why they change so damned often

On 09/01/2014 04:14, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 2:54 PM, Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> wrote:
>> I'm approaching it with the goal of knowing better what I'm talking
>> about when I advocate scrapping the whole DST system :-)
>
> I would definitely support the scrapping of DST. I'm less sure that we
> need exactly 24 timezones around the world, though. It's not nearly as
> big a problem to have the half-hour and quarter-hour timezones -
> though it would be easier if timezone were strictly an integer number
> of hours. But DST is the real pain.
>
> What I find, most of the time, is that it's Americans who can't handle
> DST. I run an international Dungeons and Dragons campaign (we play
> online, and new players are most welcome, as are people watching!),
> and the Aussies (myself included) know to check UTC time, the Brits
> and Europeans check UTC or just know what UTC is, and the Americans
> say "Doesn't that happen at 8 o'clock Eastern time?" and get confused.
> I don't understand this. Are my players drawn exclusively from the
> pool of people who've never worked with anyone in Arizona [1]? Yes,
> I'm stereotyping a bit here, and not every US player has had problems
> with this, but it's the occasional US player who knows to check, and
> the rare European, British, or Aussie player who doesn't.
>
> In any case, the world-wide abolition of DST would eliminate the
> problem. The only remaining problem would be reminding people to
> change the batteries in their smoke detectors.
>
> ChrisA
>
> [1] For those who aren't right up on timezone trivia, AZ has no DST.
> Similarly the Australian state of Queensland does not shift its
> clocks.
>

I remember this "From February 1968 to November 1971 the UK kept 
daylight saving time throughout the year mainly for commercial reasons, 
especially regarding time conformity with other European countries".  My 
source http://www.timeanddate.com/time/uk/time-zone-background.html

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence

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#63595 — Re: Time zones and why they change so damned often

On Thu, 09 Jan 2014 07:17:25 +0000, Mark Lawrence wrote:

> On 09/01/2014 04:14, Chris Angelico wrote:
>> On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 2:54 PM, Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au>
>> wrote:
>>> I'm approaching it with the goal of knowing better what I'm talking
>>> about when I advocate scrapping the whole DST system :-)
>>
>> I would definitely support the scrapping of DST. I'm less sure that we
>> need exactly 24 timezones around the world, though. It's not nearly as
>> big a problem to have the half-hour and quarter-hour timezones -
>> though it would be easier if timezone were strictly an integer number
>> of hours. But DST is the real pain.
>>
>> What I find, most of the time, is that it's Americans who can't handle
>> DST. I run an international Dungeons and Dragons campaign (we play
>> online, and new players are most welcome, as are people watching!),
>> and the Aussies (myself included) know to check UTC time, the Brits and
>> Europeans check UTC or just know what UTC is, and the Americans say
>> "Doesn't that happen at 8 o'clock Eastern time?" and get confused.
>> I don't understand this. Are my players drawn exclusively from the pool
>> of people who've never worked with anyone in Arizona [1]? Yes,
>> I'm stereotyping a bit here, and not every US player has had problems
>> with this, but it's the occasional US player who knows to check, and
>> the rare European, British, or Aussie player who doesn't.
>>
>> In any case, the world-wide abolition of DST would eliminate the
>> problem. The only remaining problem would be reminding people to change
>> the batteries in their smoke detectors.
>>
>> ChrisA
>>
>> [1] For those who aren't right up on timezone trivia, AZ has no DST.
>> Similarly the Australian state of Queensland does not shift its clocks.
>>
>>
> I remember this "From February 1968 to November 1971 the UK kept
> daylight saving time throughout the year mainly for commercial reasons,
> especially regarding time conformity with other European countries".  My
> source http://www.timeanddate.com/time/uk/time-zone-background.html

we dont have "Daylight saving time" we switch between GMT (Greenwich Mean 
Time) and BST (British Summer Time) at some point in the past we have 
also used DST (Double Summer Time).



-- 
Endless the world's turn, endless the sun's spinning
Endless the quest;
I turn again, back to my own beginning,
And here, find rest.

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#63641 — Re: Time zones and why they change so damned often

in 714232 20140109 120741 Alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>On Thu, 09 Jan 2014 07:17:25 +0000, Mark Lawrence wrote:
>
>> On 09/01/2014 04:14, Chris Angelico wrote:
>>> On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 2:54 PM, Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au>
>>> wrote:
>>>> I'm approaching it with the goal of knowing better what I'm talking
>>>> about when I advocate scrapping the whole DST system :-)
>>>
>>> I would definitely support the scrapping of DST. I'm less sure that we
>>> need exactly 24 timezones around the world, though. It's not nearly as
>>> big a problem to have the half-hour and quarter-hour timezones -
>>> though it would be easier if timezone were strictly an integer number
>>> of hours. But DST is the real pain.
>>>
>>> What I find, most of the time, is that it's Americans who can't handle
>>> DST. I run an international Dungeons and Dragons campaign (we play
>>> online, and new players are most welcome, as are people watching!),
>>> and the Aussies (myself included) know to check UTC time, the Brits and
>>> Europeans check UTC or just know what UTC is, and the Americans say
>>> "Doesn't that happen at 8 o'clock Eastern time?" and get confused.
>>> I don't understand this. Are my players drawn exclusively from the pool
>>> of people who've never worked with anyone in Arizona [1]? Yes,
>>> I'm stereotyping a bit here, and not every US player has had problems
>>> with this, but it's the occasional US player who knows to check, and
>>> the rare European, British, or Aussie player who doesn't.
>>>
>>> In any case, the world-wide abolition of DST would eliminate the
>>> problem. The only remaining problem would be reminding people to change
>>> the batteries in their smoke detectors.
>>>
>>> ChrisA
>>>
>>> [1] For those who aren't right up on timezone trivia, AZ has no DST.
>>> Similarly the Australian state of Queensland does not shift its clocks.
>>>
>>>
>> I remember this "From February 1968 to November 1971 the UK kept
>> daylight saving time throughout the year mainly for commercial reasons,
>> especially regarding time conformity with other European countries".  My
>> source http://www.timeanddate.com/time/uk/time-zone-background.html
>
>we dont have "Daylight saving time" we switch between GMT (Greenwich Mean
>Time) and BST (British Summer Time) at some point in the past we have
>also used DST (Double Summer Time).

British Summer Time *is* Daylight Saving Time.

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#63644 — Re: Time zones and why they change so damned often

On Fri, 10 Jan 2014 07:31:11 +0000, Bob Martin wrote:

> in 714232 20140109 120741 Alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>>On Thu, 09 Jan 2014 07:17:25 +0000, Mark Lawrence wrote:
>>
>>> On 09/01/2014 04:14, Chris Angelico wrote:
>>>> On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 2:54 PM, Ben Finney
>>>> <ben+python@benfinney.id.au>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> I'm approaching it with the goal of knowing better what I'm talking
>>>>> about when I advocate scrapping the whole DST system :-)
>>>>
>>>> I would definitely support the scrapping of DST. I'm less sure that
>>>> we need exactly 24 timezones around the world, though. It's not
>>>> nearly as big a problem to have the half-hour and quarter-hour
>>>> timezones - though it would be easier if timezone were strictly an
>>>> integer number of hours. But DST is the real pain.
>>>>
>>>> What I find, most of the time, is that it's Americans who can't
>>>> handle DST. I run an international Dungeons and Dragons campaign (we
>>>> play online, and new players are most welcome, as are people
>>>> watching!), and the Aussies (myself included) know to check UTC time,
>>>> the Brits and Europeans check UTC or just know what UTC is, and the
>>>> Americans say "Doesn't that happen at 8 o'clock Eastern time?" and
>>>> get confused.
>>>> I don't understand this. Are my players drawn exclusively from the
>>>> pool of people who've never worked with anyone in Arizona [1]? Yes,
>>>> I'm stereotyping a bit here, and not every US player has had problems
>>>> with this, but it's the occasional US player who knows to check, and
>>>> the rare European, British, or Aussie player who doesn't.
>>>>
>>>> In any case, the world-wide abolition of DST would eliminate the
>>>> problem. The only remaining problem would be reminding people to
>>>> change the batteries in their smoke detectors.
>>>>
>>>> ChrisA
>>>>
>>>> [1] For those who aren't right up on timezone trivia, AZ has no DST.
>>>> Similarly the Australian state of Queensland does not shift its
>>>> clocks.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> I remember this "From February 1968 to November 1971 the UK kept
>>> daylight saving time throughout the year mainly for commercial
>>> reasons, especially regarding time conformity with other European
>>> countries".  My source
>>> http://www.timeanddate.com/time/uk/time-zone-background.html
>>
>>we dont have "Daylight saving time" we switch between GMT (Greenwich
>>Mean Time) and BST (British Summer Time) at some point in the past we
>>have also used DST (Double Summer Time).
> 
> British Summer Time *is* Daylight Saving Time.

My point is in the UK we have never refered to it as Daylight saving Time
that is an Americanism :-)



-- 
    if (argc > 1 && strcmp(argv[1], "-advice") == 0) {
	printf("Don't Panic!\n");
	exit(42);
    }
	-- Arnold Robbins in the LJ of February '95, describing RCS

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#63686 — Re: Time zones and why they change so damned often

in 714281 20140110 090409 Alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>On Fri, 10 Jan 2014 07:31:11 +0000, Bob Martin wrote:
>
>> in 714232 20140109 120741 Alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>>>On Thu, 09 Jan 2014 07:17:25 +0000, Mark Lawrence wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 09/01/2014 04:14, Chris Angelico wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 2:54 PM, Ben Finney
>>>>> <ben+python@benfinney.id.au>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> I'm approaching it with the goal of knowing better what I'm talking
>>>>>> about when I advocate scrapping the whole DST system :-)
>>>>>
>>>>> I would definitely support the scrapping of DST. I'm less sure that
>>>>> we need exactly 24 timezones around the world, though. It's not
>>>>> nearly as big a problem to have the half-hour and quarter-hour
>>>>> timezones - though it would be easier if timezone were strictly an
>>>>> integer number of hours. But DST is the real pain.
>>>>>
>>>>> What I find, most of the time, is that it's Americans who can't
>>>>> handle DST. I run an international Dungeons and Dragons campaign (we
>>>>> play online, and new players are most welcome, as are people
>>>>> watching!), and the Aussies (myself included) know to check UTC time,
>>>>> the Brits and Europeans check UTC or just know what UTC is, and the
>>>>> Americans say "Doesn't that happen at 8 o'clock Eastern time?" and
>>>>> get confused.
>>>>> I don't understand this. Are my players drawn exclusively from the
>>>>> pool of people who've never worked with anyone in Arizona [1]? Yes,
>>>>> I'm stereotyping a bit here, and not every US player has had problems
>>>>> with this, but it's the occasional US player who knows to check, and
>>>>> the rare European, British, or Aussie player who doesn't.
>>>>>
>>>>> In any case, the world-wide abolition of DST would eliminate the
>>>>> problem. The only remaining problem would be reminding people to
>>>>> change the batteries in their smoke detectors.
>>>>>
>>>>> ChrisA
>>>>>
>>>>> [1] For those who aren't right up on timezone trivia, AZ has no DST.
>>>>> Similarly the Australian state of Queensland does not shift its
>>>>> clocks.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> I remember this "From February 1968 to November 1971 the UK kept
>>>> daylight saving time throughout the year mainly for commercial
>>>> reasons, especially regarding time conformity with other European
>>>> countries".  My source
>>>> http://www.timeanddate.com/time/uk/time-zone-background.html
>>>
>>>we dont have "Daylight saving time" we switch between GMT (Greenwich
>>>Mean Time) and BST (British Summer Time) at some point in the past we
>>>have also used DST (Double Summer Time).
>>
>> British Summer Time *is* Daylight Saving Time.
>
>My point is in the UK we have never refered to it as Daylight saving Time
>that is an Americanism :-)

Sorry, but you are wrong again!  
Just Google it.

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#63699 — Re: Time zones and why they change so damned often

On Sat, 11 Jan 2014 07:52:36 +0000, Bob Martin wrote:
>>>>we dont have "Daylight saving time" we switch between GMT (Greenwich
>>>>Mean Time) and BST (British Summer Time) at some point in the past we
>>>>have also used DST (Double Summer Time).
>>>
>>> British Summer Time *is* Daylight Saving Time.
>>
>>My point is in the UK we have never refered to it as Daylight saving
>>Time that is an Americanism :-)
> 
> Sorry, but you are wrong again!
> Just Google it.

Wikipedia

Daylight saving time (DST)—usually referred to as Summer Time in the 
United Kingdom

I had never heard the term daylight savings untill windows added it as a 
tick box.



-- 
And I alone am returned to wag the tail.

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