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Python education survey

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  Python education survey Raymond Hettinger <raymond.hettinger@gmail.com> - 2011-12-19 19:51 -0800
    Re: Python education survey Alec Taylor <alec.taylor6@gmail.com> - 2011-12-20 17:27 +1100
    Re: Python education survey Luka Dornhecker <luka.dornhecker@googlemail.com> - 2011-12-19 23:20 -0800
    Re: Python education survey Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierreda@gmail.com> - 2011-12-20 02:32 -0500
    Re: Python education survey Stefan Behnel <stefan_ml@behnel.de> - 2011-12-20 09:14 +0100
      Re: Python education survey Eelco <hoogendoorn.eelco@gmail.com> - 2011-12-20 03:02 -0800
      Re: Python education survey Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2011-12-20 06:45 -0800
        Re: Python education survey Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-12-21 02:51 +1100
    Re: Python education survey Andrea Crotti <andrea.crotti.0@gmail.com> - 2011-12-20 10:58 +0000
      Re: Python education survey Carl Smith <carl.input@gmail.com> - 2011-12-26 21:59 -0800
        Re: Python education survey Eelco <hoogendoorn.eelco@gmail.com> - 2011-12-27 03:41 -0800
          Re: Python education survey Lie Ryan <lie.1296@gmail.com> - 2011-12-28 04:53 +1100
            Re: Python education survey Eelco <hoogendoorn.eelco@gmail.com> - 2011-12-27 11:45 -0800
              Re: Python education survey Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2011-12-27 12:04 -0800
                Re: Python education survey Eelco <hoogendoorn.eelco@gmail.com> - 2011-12-27 13:44 -0800
                  Re: Python education survey Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2011-12-27 17:56 -0800
                    Re: Python education survey Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2011-12-27 20:21 -0600
                      Re: Python education survey Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2011-12-27 18:42 -0800
                        Re: Python education survey Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-12-28 14:54 +1100
                        Re: Python education survey Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-12-28 06:59 +0000
                          Re: Python education survey rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2011-12-27 23:49 -0800
                          Re: Python education survey Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-12-31 16:27 +0000
                            Re: Python education survey Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2011-12-31 13:23 -0500
                              Re: Python education survey Alexander Kapps <alex.kapps@web.de> - 2011-12-31 20:06 +0100
                                Re: Python education survey Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2012-01-01 02:36 +0000
                                  Re: Python education survey Alexander Kapps <alex.kapps@web.de> - 2012-01-01 05:53 +0100
                                    Re: Python education survey Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2012-01-02 17:02 +0000
                              Re: Python education survey Andrew Berg <bahamutzero8825@gmail.com> - 2011-12-31 23:44 -0600
                        Re: Python education survey Dominic Binks <dbinks@codeaurora.org> - 2011-12-31 21:12 -0800
                          Re: Python education survey Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2012-01-02 21:27 -0800
                            Re: Python education survey Dominic Binks <dbinks@codeaurora.org> - 2012-01-02 22:03 -0800
                            Re: Python education survey Evan Driscoll <edriscoll@wisc.edu> - 2012-01-03 01:31 -0500
                            Re: Python education survey Eelco <hoogendoorn.eelco@gmail.com> - 2012-01-03 04:33 -0800
                              Re: Python education survey Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-01-04 01:30 +0000
                        Re: Python education survey Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-01-01 16:50 +1100
                    Re: Python education survey Eelco <hoogendoorn.eelco@gmail.com> - 2011-12-28 04:25 -0800
    Re: Python education survey Miki Tebeka <miki.tebeka@gmail.com> - 2011-12-20 10:07 -0800
    Re: Python education survey Fernando Perez <fperez.net@gmail.com> - 2011-12-21 01:40 +0000
    Re: Python education survey Ashton Fagg <ashton@fagg.id.au> - 2011-12-21 12:06 +1000
      Re: Python education survey Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2011-12-20 21:34 -0500
        Re: Python education survey Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-12-21 13:44 +1100
        Re: Python education survey Nathan Rice <nathan.alexander.rice@gmail.com> - 2011-12-21 11:57 -0500
          Re: Python education survey Raymond Hettinger <raymond.hettinger@gmail.com> - 2011-12-22 12:01 -0800
          Re: Python education survey rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2011-12-22 19:05 -0800
    Re: Python education survey Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2011-12-25 09:44 -0800
      Re: Python education survey Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-12-26 14:27 +1100
        Re: Python education survey Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2011-12-26 06:52 -0800
          Re: Python education survey Nathan Rice <nathan.alexander.rice@gmail.com> - 2011-12-26 11:11 -0500
            Re: Python education survey Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2011-12-26 09:27 -0800
          Re: Python education survey Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-12-26 18:04 +0000
            Re: Python education survey Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2011-12-26 10:32 -0800
              Re: Python education survey Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-12-27 06:56 +1100
      Re: Python education survey Carl Smith <carl.input@gmail.com> - 2011-12-26 22:14 -0800
        Re: Python education survey Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2011-12-27 08:37 -0800
          Re: Python education survey Lie Ryan <lie.1296@gmail.com> - 2011-12-28 04:50 +1100
            Re: Python education survey Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2011-12-27 10:11 -0800
              Re: Python education survey Lie Ryan <lie.1296@gmail.com> - 2011-12-28 08:13 +1100
              Re: Python education survey Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2011-12-27 14:31 -0700
    Re: Python education survey Monte Milanuk <memilanuk@gmail.com> - 2011-12-25 22:02 -0800
    Re: Python education survey K Richard Pixley <rich@noir.com> - 2011-12-27 09:59 -0800
      Re: Python education survey Andrew Berg <bahamutzero8825@gmail.com> - 2011-12-27 12:26 -0600
        Re: Python education survey K Richard Pixley <rich@noir.com> - 2011-12-27 14:04 -0800
          Re: Python education survey Andrew Berg <bahamutzero8825@gmail.com> - 2011-12-27 16:57 -0600
            Re: Python education survey 88888 Dihedral <dihedral88888@googlemail.com> - 2011-12-27 17:21 -0800
              Re: Python education survey Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2011-12-27 18:01 -0800
            Re: Python education survey 88888 Dihedral <dihedral88888@googlemail.com> - 2011-12-27 17:21 -0800
        Re: Python education survey rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2011-12-27 21:50 -0800
      Re: Python education survey Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2011-12-27 10:21 -0800
        Re: Python education survey K Richard Pixley <rich@noir.com> - 2011-12-27 12:39 -0800

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#17548 — Python education survey

Do you use IDLE when teaching Python?
If not, what is the tool of choice?

Students may not be experienced with the command-line and may be
running Windows, Linux, or Macs.  Ideally, the tool or IDE will be
easy to install and configure (startup directory, path, associated
with a particular version of Python etc).

Though an Emacs user myself, I've been teaching with IDLE because it's
free; it runs on multiple OSes, it has tooltips and code colorization
and easy indent/dedent/comment/uncomment commands, it has tab
completion; it allows easy editing at the interactive prompt; it has
an easy run-script command (F5); it has direct access to source code
(File OpenModule) and a class browser (Cntl+B).

On the downside, some python distros aren't built with the requisite
Tcl/Tk support; some distros like the Mac OS ship with a broken Tcl/Tk
so users have to install a fix to that as well; and IDLE sometimes
just freezes for no reason.  It also doesn't have an easy way to
specify the startup directory.

If your goal is to quickly get new users up and running in Python,
what IDE or editor do you recommend?


Raymond

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#17561

Two suggestions:

- Editra (free): Requires a little bit of fiddling around and enabling
Shelf, installing plugins but then it is great
- Recently I was introduced to Sublime Text 2 which has an über
streamlined layout.

On Tue, Dec 20, 2011 at 2:51 PM, Raymond Hettinger
<raymond.hettinger@gmail.com> wrote:
> Do you use IDLE when teaching Python?
> If not, what is the tool of choice?
>
> Students may not be experienced with the command-line and may be
> running Windows, Linux, or Macs.  Ideally, the tool or IDE will be
> easy to install and configure (startup directory, path, associated
> with a particular version of Python etc).
>
> Though an Emacs user myself, I've been teaching with IDLE because it's
> free; it runs on multiple OSes, it has tooltips and code colorization
> and easy indent/dedent/comment/uncomment commands, it has tab
> completion; it allows easy editing at the interactive prompt; it has
> an easy run-script command (F5); it has direct access to source code
> (File OpenModule) and a class browser (Cntl+B).
>
> On the downside, some python distros aren't built with the requisite
> Tcl/Tk support; some distros like the Mac OS ship with a broken Tcl/Tk
> so users have to install a fix to that as well; and IDLE sometimes
> just freezes for no reason.  It also doesn't have an easy way to
> specify the startup directory.
>
> If your goal is to quickly get new users up and running in Python,
> what IDE or editor do you recommend?
>
>
> Raymond
> --
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

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#17563

On Tuesday, December 20, 2011 4:51:00 AM UTC+1, Raymond Hettinger wrote:
> Do you use IDLE when teaching Python?
> If not, what is the tool of choice?
> 
> Students may not be experienced with the command-line and may be
> running Windows, Linux, or Macs.  Ideally, the tool or IDE will be
> easy to install and configure (startup directory, path, associated
> with a particular version of Python etc).
> 
> Though an Emacs user myself, I've been teaching with IDLE because it's
> free; it runs on multiple OSes, it has tooltips and code colorization
> and easy indent/dedent/comment/uncomment commands, it has tab
> completion; it allows easy editing at the interactive prompt; it has
> an easy run-script command (F5); it has direct access to source code
> (File OpenModule) and a class browser (Cntl+B).
> 
> On the downside, some python distros aren't built with the requisite
> Tcl/Tk support; some distros like the Mac OS ship with a broken Tcl/Tk
> so users have to install a fix to that as well; and IDLE sometimes
> just freezes for no reason.  It also doesn't have an easy way to
> specify the startup directory.
> 
> If your goal is to quickly get new users up and running in Python,
> what IDE or editor do you recommend?
> 
> 
> Raymond

If you want an easy to use, cross-platform editor with lots of nice features I would also recommend Sulbime Text 2.
You would have to teach how to use the terminal on different platforms but for basic stuff, like running a python program it's basically the same on Linux, Windows and OSX.

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#17564

My university (University of Toronto) helped design Wing 101, and uses
it exclusively in introductory courses.

Overall, the only major sticking points that I saw (as a TA who helped
with the code labs and setup) were installation issues on OS X
(relating to X11) and some confusion on when the embedded interactive
interpreter gets refreshed ("hit run first"). It's a "big" editor with
lots of buttons, but IME students are good at ignoring things.

Truthfully I'm not sure why it's great for teaching, though. And there
were some discussions I overheard about perhaps switching to PyCharm,
which at least one professor thought was much better. And I personally
prefer simpler editors for my own use, not just for educational
purposes. Eh.

-- Devin

On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 10:51 PM, Raymond Hettinger
<raymond.hettinger@gmail.com> wrote:
> Do you use IDLE when teaching Python?
> If not, what is the tool of choice?
>
> Students may not be experienced with the command-line and may be
> running Windows, Linux, or Macs.  Ideally, the tool or IDE will be
> easy to install and configure (startup directory, path, associated
> with a particular version of Python etc).
>
> Though an Emacs user myself, I've been teaching with IDLE because it's
> free; it runs on multiple OSes, it has tooltips and code colorization
> and easy indent/dedent/comment/uncomment commands, it has tab
> completion; it allows easy editing at the interactive prompt; it has
> an easy run-script command (F5); it has direct access to source code
> (File OpenModule) and a class browser (Cntl+B).
>
> On the downside, some python distros aren't built with the requisite
> Tcl/Tk support; some distros like the Mac OS ship with a broken Tcl/Tk
> so users have to install a fix to that as well; and IDLE sometimes
> just freezes for no reason.  It also doesn't have an easy way to
> specify the startup directory.
>
> If your goal is to quickly get new users up and running in Python,
> what IDE or editor do you recommend?
>
>
> Raymond
> --
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

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#17566

Devin Jeanpierre, 20.12.2011 08:32:
> Truthfully I'm not sure why it's great for teaching, though. And there
> were some discussions I overheard about perhaps switching to PyCharm,
> which at least one professor thought was much better.

I recently started using PyCharm personally, but not for my courses. 
There's a free OSS developers licence and it's a really nice (although 
young and somewhat resource hungry) IDE, but you can't really advocate a 
non-free IDE for teaching. "Buy me as a teacher, and, BTW, buy this IDE for 
everyone as well or I won't teach you"? Doesn't quite work.

For teaching, I think it's better to come around with something simpler 
than a full-blown IDE, so that you can show off interactive development, 
help() and other introspection features. IMHO much better than hiding all 
that behind an IDE, especially behind the additional complexity of an IDE. 
IPython is much better suited to present an interactive language like Python.

Stefan

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#17572

I taught a Python class just recently, and thought long and hard about
this problem. I settled on PyCharm and was happy with that.

My reasons:
 - available on all main platoforms
 - not entirely broken code completion (ive tried literally every
python editor, and pycharm is the only one that meets this requirement
on all platforms. Try import numpy; numpy.array. 90% of editors with
'code completion' will fail that simple benchmark. The only thing
worse than no completion list is an incomplete list of completions.
Only pyscripter is better in this regard, but win-only.)
 - easy installation
 - integrated console
 - integrated debugger
 - free (for classroom use)
 - fairly uncluttered

> I recently started using PyCharm personally, but not for my courses.
> There's a free OSS developers licence and it's a really nice (although
> young and somewhat resource hungry) IDE, but you can't really advocate a
> non-free IDE for teaching. "Buy me as a teacher, and, BTW, buy this IDE for
> everyone as well or I won't teach you"? Doesn't quite work.

PyCharm provides a free 1 year classroom license.

> For teaching, I think it's better to come around with something simpler
> than a full-blown IDE, so that you can show off interactive development,
> help() and other introspection features. IMHO much better than hiding all
> that behind an IDE, especially behind the additional complexity of an IDE.
> IPython is much better suited to present an interactive language like Python.

PyCharm has an integrated interpreter (a wrapper around Ipython that
superimposes the pycharm based code completion stuff).
Plus, it does not start by default into a clutter-overload mode, and
if you click away a pane or two, you have a rather clean editor.

Aside from worrying about your editor, worry about how to install
python. As a windows user, I had scarcely imagined the nightmares of
installing everything on all platforms, different OS versions, and so
forth. DONT install/compile via the command line, and DO use a
precompiled distro like enthought. Macosx does not come with a C
compiler, and your only recourse is the 4-gig xcode download. That is,
if *friggin ITunes* lets you install it, and does not silently screw
up your installation. I could go on, but anyway you get the point.
Unless its your own computer, anything more complex than double
clicking an installer WILL GO WRONG, and spending hours debugging
other peoples computers is not how you want to spend your time.

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#17579

On Dec 20, 2:14 am, Stefan Behnel <stefan...@behnel.de> wrote:

> For teaching, I think it's better to come around with something simpler
> than a full-blown IDE, so that you can show off interactive development,
> help() and other introspection features. IMHO much better than hiding all
> that behind an IDE,

That is a damn good point Stefan. Too many noobs step passed the
introspection features of Python without knowing what happened. help,
dir, type, isinstance, id... to name a few. Heck for most things,
considering you have at least basic programming experience, the help
function is all you need to learn the language.

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#17586

On Wed, Dec 21, 2011 at 1:45 AM, Rick Johnson
<rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> wrote:
> Heck for most things,
> considering you have at least basic programming experience, the help
> function is all you need to learn the language.

I know I shouldn't feed the troll, but this is more general.

You cannot learn the _language_ from help() - it's more like a
dictionary. You still need something that explains the grammar, and
you also need to have some ideas of what names to look up.

The help() function in Python is actually not as helpful as could be
desired, in many cases. I think "help()" on its own is probably a good
thing, but... I didn't know about it until I tried it right while
typing up this email. (That's probably my fault more than Python's,
though.)

help(functionname) is usually fairly helpful - but most of that is
just from the function's docstring. Unfortunately help(classname) and
help(modulename) are way too spammy to be much use. Look for instance
at help(decimal.Decimal) - quite a few dunder methods are listed,
uselessly. What does "__deepcopy__(self, memo)" do? What about
"__ge__(self, other, context=None)"? Unless you happen to know that
__ge__ is the greater-than-or-equal function, it's not going to do you
much good to see the method listed. They're just spam, forcing you to
read through more screed to figure out what's going on.

Same, and even worse, with modules - help(decimal) is pages and pages
of text, detailing the exceptions supported etc. Unlike the class's,
though, the module's docstring is actually quite helpful. (It also
hints at what the context=None arguments are on a lot of the methods.)

Please note that this is not a criticism of the decimal module
specifically; and the help() function can't really be written any
other way, short of having it emit ONLY docstrings, and then demand
that module authors maintain perfect class and module docstrings (like
that's gonna happen).

Hmm. Another feature I didn't know about help() - instead of passing
it an object, you can pass it a string. This gets around the fact that
"help(class)" doesn't work - "help('class')" does. I think I should
reword this from "possible feature request" to "does this already
exist", because it probably does... so...

Is there a less spammy documentation utility, in-built into Python?

Chris Angelico

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#17571

On 12/20/2011 03:51 AM, Raymond Hettinger wrote:
> Do you use IDLE when teaching Python?
> If not, what is the tool of choice?
>
> Students may not be experienced with the command-line and may be
> running Windows, Linux, or Macs.  Ideally, the tool or IDE will be
> easy to install and configure (startup directory, path, associated
> with a particular version of Python etc).
>
> Though an Emacs user myself, I've been teaching with IDLE because it's
> free; it runs on multiple OSes, it has tooltips and code colorization
> and easy indent/dedent/comment/uncomment commands, it has tab
> completion; it allows easy editing at the interactive prompt; it has
> an easy run-script command (F5); it has direct access to source code
> (File OpenModule) and a class browser (Cntl+B).
>
> On the downside, some python distros aren't built with the requisite
> Tcl/Tk support; some distros like the Mac OS ship with a broken Tcl/Tk
> so users have to install a fix to that as well; and IDLE sometimes
> just freezes for no reason.  It also doesn't have an easy way to
> specify the startup directory.
>
> If your goal is to quickly get new users up and running in Python,
> what IDE or editor do you recommend?
>
>
> Raymond

I think ipython and a good editor gives a much nicer experience
than IDLE, which I actually almost never used, and
for everything else there is python and python-mode.

New users however can be pointed to something like PyCharm
or Eclipse+PyDev if they are more familiar to IDEs..

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#18011

On Dec 20, 10:58 am, Andrea Crotti <andrea.crott...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 12/20/2011 03:51 AM, Raymond Hettinger wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Do you use IDLE when teaching Python?
> > If not, what is the tool of choice?
>
> > Students may not be experienced with the command-line and may be
> > running Windows, Linux, or Macs.  Ideally, the tool or IDE will be
> > easy to install and configure (startup directory, path, associated
> > with a particular version of Python etc).
>
> > Though an Emacs user myself, I've been teaching with IDLE because it's
> > free; it runs on multiple OSes, it has tooltips and code colorization
> > and easy indent/dedent/comment/uncomment commands, it has tab
> > completion; it allows easy editing at the interactive prompt; it has
> > an easy run-script command (F5); it has direct access to source code
> > (File OpenModule) and a class browser (Cntl+B).
>
> > On the downside, some python distros aren't built with the requisite
> > Tcl/Tk support; some distros like the Mac OS ship with a broken Tcl/Tk
> > so users have to install a fix to that as well; and IDLE sometimes
> > just freezes for no reason.  It also doesn't have an easy way to
> > specify the startup directory.
>
> > If your goal is to quickly get new users up and running in Python,
> > what IDE or editor do you recommend?
>
> > Raymond
>
> I think ipython and a good editor gives a much nicer experience
> than IDLE, which I actually almost never used, and
> for everything else there is python and python-mode.
>
> New users however can be pointed to something like PyCharm
> or Eclipse+PyDev if they are more familiar to IDEs..

I agree; IPython is a excellent choice. You have a much more powerful
interactive Python experience, with all the features you need from an
IDE. You can use any editor (VIM) and you can also readily hack
IPython to death.

I think the fact that anyone with basic programming skills can
substantially enhance their console is a big winner in CS education.
It gives students something they personally value to work on, it's a
place to store all their little bits of code and actually benefit from
them in real life.

I've never met a programmer that got familiar with IPython and then
went on to stop using it. It should be included in the standard
library and used as the default Python interactive environment.

The last line of my .bashrc file:

ipython3

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#18022

On Dec 27, 6:59 am, Carl Smith <carl.in...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Dec 20, 10:58 am, Andrea Crotti <andrea.crott...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 12/20/2011 03:51 AM, Raymond Hettinger wrote:
>
> > > Do you use IDLE when teaching Python?
> > > If not, what is the tool of choice?
>
> > > Students may not be experienced with the command-line and may be
> > > running Windows, Linux, or Macs.  Ideally, the tool or IDE will be
> > > easy to install and configure (startup directory, path, associated
> > > with a particular version of Python etc).
>
> > > Though an Emacs user myself, I've been teaching with IDLE because it's
> > > free; it runs on multiple OSes, it has tooltips and code colorization
> > > and easy indent/dedent/comment/uncomment commands, it has tab
> > > completion; it allows easy editing at the interactive prompt; it has
> > > an easy run-script command (F5); it has direct access to source code
> > > (File OpenModule) and a class browser (Cntl+B).
>
> > > On the downside, some python distros aren't built with the requisite
> > > Tcl/Tk support; some distros like the Mac OS ship with a broken Tcl/Tk
> > > so users have to install a fix to that as well; and IDLE sometimes
> > > just freezes for no reason.  It also doesn't have an easy way to
> > > specify the startup directory.
>
> > > If your goal is to quickly get new users up and running in Python,
> > > what IDE or editor do you recommend?
>
> > > Raymond
>
> > I think ipython and a good editor gives a much nicer experience
> > than IDLE, which I actually almost never used, and
> > for everything else there is python and python-mode.
>
> > New users however can be pointed to something like PyCharm
> > or Eclipse+PyDev if they are more familiar to IDEs..
>
> I agree; IPython is a excellent choice. You have a much more powerful
> interactive Python experience, with all the features you need from an
> IDE. You can use any editor (VIM) and you can also readily hack
> IPython to death.
>
> I think the fact that anyone with basic programming skills can
> substantially enhance their console is a big winner in CS education.
> It gives students something they personally value to work on, it's a
> place to store all their little bits of code and actually benefit from
> them in real life.
>
> I've never met a programmer that got familiar with IPython and then
> went on to stop using it. It should be included in the standard
> library and used as the default Python interactive environment.
>
> The last line of my .bashrc file:
>
> ipython3

Youve got one here. I like IPython a lot, but it quite rarely enters
into my workflow.

While I agree that a good interactive python console is a good way to
get your feet wet with programming, I also strongly feel that a more
comprehensive programming environment should be introduced to
students. That includes opening and editing files, syntax
highlighting, and code completion. And painless installation. There
are no lightweight editors that provide all this functionality in
conjuction with Ipython*. So I prefer to work the other way around;
use something like pycharm, and open an IPython interactive session
within it.

*Your suggestion of VIM is especially objectionable. Though I am sure
it is a great tool to you, the subject here is beginner education.
Just because it is a good tool for you, does not make it a good tool
for a beginner.

IPython bundled with a lightweight but function-rich and non-hacker-
but-WYSIWYG editor would be a great choice. But until that comes
around, pycharm it is for me.

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#18034

On 12/27/2011 10:41 PM, Eelco wrote:
>
> *Your suggestion of VIM is especially objectionable. Though I am sure
> it is a great tool to you, the subject here is beginner education.
> Just because it is a good tool for you, does not make it a good tool
> for a beginner.

Before using VIM, I used to use gedit (and still do, though not as often 
now); I don't think I've ever had any problem with not using a full 
blown IDE with Python. I generally don't miss not using an IDE since 
Python doesn't have the tradition of using overly verbose names like in 
Java.

I'm personally of the opinion that beginners generally should start with 
a simple programmer text editors (gedit is a good example). Firstly, you 
don't want to confuse beginners with IDE vs language features; secondly, 
at the size of the problem beginners typically had, they don't **need** 
95% of those features; and if you teach beginners powerful IDE features 
too early, by the time their problem gets big enough that the IDE 
features would actually help, they'd already forgotten about them.

> IPython bundled with a lightweight but function-rich and non-hacker-
> but-WYSIWYG editor would be a great choice. But until that comes
> around, pycharm it is for me.

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#18047

On Dec 27, 6:53 pm, Lie Ryan <lie.1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 12/27/2011 10:41 PM, Eelco wrote:
>
>
>
> > *Your suggestion of VIM is especially objectionable. Though I am sure
> > it is a great tool to you, the subject here is beginner education.
> > Just because it is a good tool for you, does not make it a good tool
> > for a beginner.
>
> Before using VIM, I used to use gedit (and still do, though not as often
> now); I don't think I've ever had any problem with not using a full
> blown IDE with Python. I generally don't miss not using an IDE since
> Python doesn't have the tradition of using overly verbose names like in
> Java.

As for my personal use, I very much prefer an IDE. I hate having only
crappy code completion, for starters, and I like a good integrated
debugger. But then again, im spoiled I suppose coming from C#. On the
other hand, ive worked for many years using a very minimal notepad
+command line compilation setup as well.

But I can very well imagine that people are perfectly happy with more
hackerish tools. That is, once they have gotten past the learning
curve.

> I'm personally of the opinion that beginners generally should start with
> a simple programmer text editors (gedit is a good example). Firstly, you
> don't want to confuse beginners with IDE vs language features; secondly,
> at the size of the problem beginners typically had, they don't **need**
> 95% of those features; and if you teach beginners powerful IDE features
> too early, by the time their problem gets big enough that the IDE
> features would actually help, they'd already forgotten about them.

A good IDE should get out of your way if you want it to. I like
pycharm in this regard; click an x or two, and you are facing just
your text editor and console/output window.

Generally, I think a non-cluttered IDE is ideal for a beginner. You
dont have to explain to them how to open a file, and if you tell them
to hit the 'play' button to start running their code (not a hard
concept to grasp or remember either) they are good to start hacking.
Also, I think code completion is a blessing to beginning programmers.
IPython is good in that regard; until you switch to editing files,
where your choice is between notepad, or configuring an other editor
you dont want your class to spend any time on, and youll end up with
something that still doesnt do much more than syntax highlighting.

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#18048

On Dec 27, 1:45 pm, Eelco <hoogendoorn.ee...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Dec 27, 6:53 pm, Lie Ryan <lie.1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On 12/27/2011 10:41 PM, Eelco wrote:

> > Before using VIM, I used to use gedit

Eelco, please don't get offended, but can you (and everyone else) stop
using silly verbage like "used to", "use to", "suppose to", "hard"
when you "difficult", and "pretty" when you mean "very". I find this
verbiage to be quite ridiculous. In this case you could have simply
said...

"""Before using VIM, I USED gedit."""

or if you want to stress that you don't use gedit anymore you could
say...

""" Previously i used gedit, but have since moved on to VIM."""

Thanks

> As for my personal use, I very much prefer an IDE. I hate having only
> crappy code completion

Syntax highlight is important ESPECIALLY if you're multi-lingual.
Sometimes when i switch between the many languages i know, the
highlight of the syntax is the only blindingly apparent clue. Take
Python and Ruby for example.

> A good IDE should get out of your way if you want it to. I like
> pycharm in this regard; click an x or two, and you are facing just
> your text editor and console/output window.

A "good IDE" is nothing more than an extension of a base text editor
with options to switch on as little or as much IDE machinery as you
like. Why would you have a text editor AND an IDE? When an IDE is just
an intelligent texteditor? That is one thing that i find missing in
IDLE; the ability to turn off certain things. With IDLE, it's all or
nothing.

> Generally, I think a non-cluttered IDE is ideal for a beginner.

Agreed, see last response ^^^

> You
> dont have to explain to them how to open a file, and if you tell them
> to hit the 'play' button to start running their code (not a hard
> concept to grasp or remember either) they are good to start hacking.

I always though "run" was a perfect verb for "running" code... but who
knows :)

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#18066

On Dec 27, 9:04 pm, Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohn...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Dec 27, 1:45 pm, Eelco <hoogendoorn.ee...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Dec 27, 6:53 pm, Lie Ryan <lie.1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > On 12/27/2011 10:41 PM, Eelco wrote:
> > > Before using VIM, I used to use gedit
>
> Eelco, please don't get offended, but can you (and everyone else) stop
> using silly verbage like "used to", "use to", "suppose to", "hard"
> when you "difficult", and "pretty" when you mean "very". I find this
> verbiage to be quite ridiculous. In this case you could have simply
> said...
>
> """Before using VIM, I USED gedit."""
>
> or if you want to stress that you don't use gedit anymore you could
> say...
>
> """ Previously i used gedit, but have since moved on to VIM."""
>
> Thanks

Despite the fact that you mis-attributed that quote to me, im going to
be a little bit offended in the name of its actual author anyway.
Thats a lot of words to waste on your linguistic preferences.
Personally, I reserve the right to botch my non-native languages as
much as I please.

> > You
> > dont have to explain to them how to open a file, and if you tell them
> > to hit the 'play' button to start running their code (not a hard
> > concept to grasp or remember either) they are good to start hacking.
>
> I always though "run" was a perfect verb for "running" code... but who
> knows :)

Im assuming the audience is familiar with an ipod, but not an IDE, or
programming in general. To their eyes, it looks like a 'play' button;
but yes, 'running' is what its called in my mind.

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#18084

On Dec 27, 3:44 pm, Eelco <hoogendoorn.ee...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Despite the fact that you mis-attributed that quote to me, im going to
> be a little bit offended in the name of its actual author anyway.
> Thats a lot of words to waste on your linguistic preferences.
> Personally, I reserve the right to botch my non-native languages as
> much as I please.

I hope you're just joking a bit because i have little respect for
those who refuse to better themselves. If you are learning English as
a second language then you have a legitimacy excuse, but at some point
that excuse just becomes a lie. In any case, i apologize for mis-
quoting you.

> > I always though "run" was a perfect verb for "running" code... but who
> > knows :)
>
> Im assuming the audience is familiar with an ipod, but not an IDE, or
> programming in general. To their eyes, it looks like a 'play' button;

I would be very careful about introducing new words, or borrowing
words, to replace tried and true technical terms that have existed for
along time. As a matter of fact, the BDFL make the point better than i
ever could:

GvR speaking about ABC's design: """ The ABC group assumed that the
users had no prior computer experience (or were willing to forget it).
Thus, alternative terminology was introduced that was considered more
"newbie-friendly" than standard programming terms. For example:
procedures were called "how-tos" and variables "locations". """

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#18086

On 12/27/11 19:56, Rick Johnson wrote:
> On Dec 27, 3:44 pm, Eelco<hoogendoorn.ee...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Despite the fact that you mis-attributed that quote to me,
>> im going to be a little bit offended in the name of its
>> actual author anyway. Thats a lot of words to waste on your
>> linguistic preferences. Personally, I reserve the right to
>> botch my non-native languages as much as I please.
>
> I hope you're just joking a bit because i have little respect
> for those who refuse to better themselves. If you are learning
> English as a second language then you have a legitimacy
> excuse, but at some point that excuse just becomes a lie.

I'm glad you're open to learning more about English as "used to" 
is perfectly acceptable according to the World English Dictionary[1]

"""
2.  	(takes an infinitive or implied infinitive) used as an 
auxiliary to express habitual or accustomed actions, states, etc, 
taking place in the past but not continuing into the present: I 
don't drink these days, but I used to; I used to fish here every day
"""

May you be found better for learning and come to give others the 
benefit of the doubt.

-tkc

[1]
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/used%20to

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#18089

On Dec 27, 8:21 pm, Tim Chase <python.l...@tim.thechases.com> wrote:

> I'm glad you're open to learning more about English as "used to"
> is perfectly acceptable according to the World English Dictionary[1]
> [...]
> May you be found better for learning and come to give others the
> benefit of the doubt.

I don't care what ANY dictionary says. Much less a "world" dictionary.
I don't validate or invalidate a word based on some phony baloney
group of pseudo intellectuals who decided one to day that writing a
dictionary "might be cool". I am against these words and phrases
because we already have words that work just fine. Why rock the boat?

Why would you use a word like "hard" (which describes the physical
properties of a tangible object),  to describe how "difficult" a task
may be? If you insist on this lunacy, then why not use "soft" to
describe how easy a task may be? Seems ridiculous now, huh?

Garbage Verbiage Translator:
 Used to -> previously|before
 Supposed to -> required|expected
 Use to -> accustomed|acquainted
 Right (OOC) -> Correct
 Hard (OOC) -> Difficult
 Pretty (OOC) -> very

This is group has the most dumbest smart people i have ever met!

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#18093

On Wed, Dec 28, 2011 at 1:42 PM, Rick Johnson
<rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> wrote:
> I don't care what ANY dictionary says. Much less a "world" dictionary.
> I don't validate or invalidate a word based on some phony baloney
> group of pseudo intellectuals who decided one to day that writing a
> dictionary "might be cool".

Finally we know who Ranting Rick is the alt of. He's Humpty Dumpty!

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Through_the_Looking-Glass,_and_What_Alice_Found_There/Chapter_VI

ChrisA

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#18104

On Tue, 27 Dec 2011 18:42:05 -0800, Rick Johnson wrote:

> On Dec 27, 8:21 pm, Tim Chase <python.l...@tim.thechases.com> wrote:
> 
>> I'm glad you're open to learning more about English as "used to" is
>> perfectly acceptable according to the World English Dictionary[1] [...]
>> May you be found better for learning and come to give others the
>> benefit of the doubt.
> 
> I don't care what ANY dictionary says. Much less a "world" dictionary. I
> don't validate or invalidate a word based on some phony baloney group of
> pseudo intellectuals who decided one to day that writing a dictionary
> "might be cool". I am against these words and phrases because we already
> have words that work just fine. Why rock the boat?

Why do you say "rock" when the word "shake" is just as good?

Why do you say "boat" when we already have "ship"?

Why do you say "pseudo intellectuals" when you could say "fake 
intellectuals"?

Why do I waste my time reading your pretentious self-important nonsense?


[...]
> This is group has the most dumbest smart people i have ever met!

Considering I keep expecting you to stop trolling, I admit this applies 
to me.


-- 
Steven

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