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I hate you all

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  I hate you all terminatorul@gmail.com - 2013-04-05 14:41 -0700
    Re: I hate you all Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-04-06 08:53 +1100
    Re: I hate you all John Gordon <gordon@panix.com> - 2013-04-05 21:55 +0000
      Re: I hate you all terminatorul@gmail.com - 2013-04-05 15:04 -0700
        Re: I hate you all Andrew Berg <bahamutzero8825@gmail.com> - 2013-04-05 17:28 -0500
        Re: I hate you all Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-04-05 16:42 -0600
          Re: I hate you all terminatorul@gmail.com - 2013-04-05 17:22 -0700
            Re: I hate you all Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-04-06 11:35 +1100
              Re: I hate you all Timothy Madden <terminatorul@gmail.com> - 2013-04-06 08:07 +0300
                Re: I hate you all Benjamin Kaplan <benjamin.kaplan@case.edu> - 2013-04-05 22:28 -0700
                Re: I hate you all Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-04-05 23:53 -0600
                  Re: I hate you all Timothy Madden <terminatorul@gmail.com> - 2013-04-06 09:56 +0300
                    Re: I hate you all Joshua Landau <joshua.landau.ws@gmail.com> - 2013-04-06 11:17 +0100
                      Re: I hate you all Timothy Madden <terminatorul@gmail.com> - 2013-04-06 17:22 +0300
                        Re: I hate you all Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-04-06 15:30 +0000
                        Re: I hate you all Roland Koebler <r.koebler@yahoo.de> - 2013-04-08 00:52 +0200
                Re: I hate you all Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2013-04-05 23:59 -0600
                  Re: I hate you all Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-04-06 06:19 +0000
                Re: I hate you all Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2013-04-05 23:49 -0600
            Re: I hate you all Andrew Berg <bahamutzero8825@gmail.com> - 2013-04-05 19:50 -0500
            Re: I hate you all Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-04-06 02:07 +0000
            Re: I hate you all Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-04-05 21:53 -0600
              Re: I hate you all Timothy Madden <terminatorul@gmail.com> - 2013-04-06 08:36 +0300
                Re: I hate you all Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-04-06 16:44 +1100
                Re: I hate you all Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2013-04-05 23:58 -0600
                  Re: I hate you all Timothy Madden <terminatorul@gmail.com> - 2013-04-06 10:07 +0300
                Re: I hate you all Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2013-04-05 23:00 -0700
                  Re: I hate you all Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-04-06 15:37 +0000
                    Re: I hate you all Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-04-06 11:49 -0400
                Re: I hate you all Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-04-06 06:55 +0000
                Re: I hate you all Larry Hudson <orgnut@yahoo.com> - 2013-04-06 13:17 -0700
                  Re: I hate you all Timothy Madden <terminatorul@gmail.com> - 2013-04-07 14:37 +0300
              Re: I hate you all Nobody <nobody@nowhere.com> - 2013-04-06 14:52 +0100
                Re: I hate you all Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-04-07 01:20 +1100
                  Re: I hate you all Timothy Madden <terminatorul@gmail.com> - 2013-04-06 17:37 +0300
                  Re: I hate you all Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-04-06 11:01 -0400
                    Re: I hate you all Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2013-04-06 15:15 +0000
                      Re: I hate you all Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-04-06 15:41 +0000
                        Re: I hate you all rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-04-06 09:00 -0700
                      Re: I hate you all Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-04-06 11:59 -0400
                        Re: I hate you all Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2013-04-06 18:48 +0000
                    Re: I hate you all rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-04-06 08:31 -0700
                    Re: I hate you all Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-04-07 07:29 +1000
                    Re: I hate you all Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-04-07 01:38 +0000
                  Re: I hate you all Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-04-07 01:30 +0000
                    Re: I hate you all Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-04-06 22:15 -0400
                    Re: I hate you all Jason Friedman <jsf80238@gmail.com> - 2013-04-06 20:42 -0600
                    Re: I hate you all Nobody <nobody@nowhere.com> - 2013-04-08 19:43 +0100
                      Re: I hate you all Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-04-08 19:48 +0000
                        Re: I hate you all Walter Hurry <walterhurry@lavabit.com> - 2013-04-08 21:25 +0000
                          Re: I hate you all Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-04-08 21:29 +0000
                            Re: I hate you all Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-04-09 08:00 +1000
                              Re: I hate you all Walter Hurry <walterhurry@lavabit.com> - 2013-04-08 22:51 +0000
                                Re: I hate you all Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-04-09 08:57 +1000
                                Re: I hate you all Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-04-09 09:33 +0100
                                  Re: I hate you all Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-04-09 13:39 +0000
                                    Re: I hate you all Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2013-04-09 09:17 -0500
                                    Re: I hate you all Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-04-10 00:20 +1000
                                    Re: I hate you all Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-04-09 16:51 +0100
                                      Re: I hate you all Walter Hurry <walterhurry@lavabit.com> - 2013-04-09 21:09 +0000
                                        Re: I hate you all Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-04-09 23:09 +0100
                                          Re: I hate you all Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-04-09 23:21 +0000
                                            Re: I hate you all Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-04-10 09:28 +1000
                                              Re: I hate you all Walter Hurry <walterhurry@lavabit.com> - 2013-04-09 23:50 +0000
                                                Re: I hate you all Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-04-10 10:31 +1000
                                                  Re: I hate you all Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-04-10 02:00 +0000
                                                    Re: I hate you all Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-04-10 12:14 +1000
                                            Re: I hate you all Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-04-10 00:39 +0100
                                            Re: I hate you all Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-04-10 00:41 +0100
                                      Re: I hate you all Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-04-09 21:43 +0000
                      Re: I hate you all Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-04-09 02:51 +0000
                        Re: I hate you all rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-04-08 21:06 -0700
                          Re: I hate you all rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-04-08 21:52 -0700
                          Re: I hate you all Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-04-09 05:19 +0000
            Re: I hate you all "Günther Dietrich" <gd.usenet@spamfence.net> - 2013-04-06 14:55 +0200
          Re: I hate you all terminatorul@gmail.com - 2013-04-05 17:22 -0700
        Re: I hate you all Isaac To <isaac.to@gmail.com> - 2013-04-06 06:35 +0800
        Re: I hate you all Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-04-05 17:00 -0600
    Re: I hate you all Dylan Evans <dylan@dje.me> - 2013-04-06 14:28 +1000
      Re: I hate you all terminatorul@gmail.com - 2013-04-05 22:13 -0700
        Re: I hate you all Dylan Evans <dylan@dje.me> - 2013-04-07 13:00 +1000
          Re: I hate you all Timothy Madden <terminatorul@gmail.com> - 2013-04-07 14:44 +0300
            Re: I hate you all Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2013-04-07 11:12 -0700
              Re: I hate you all Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-04-07 14:33 -0400
      Re: I hate you all terminatorul@gmail.com - 2013-04-05 22:13 -0700
    Re: I hate you all Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-04-06 15:27 +0000
      Re: I hate you all Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-04-06 11:58 -0400
    Re: I hate you all Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-04-07 19:25 +0100

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#43233

On 09/04/2013 22:09, Walter Hurry wrote:
> On Tue, 09 Apr 2013 16:51:26 +0100, Mark Lawrence wrote:
>> Having never really used a *nix box in anger how would I know?  A
>> substantial portion of my career was spent on a combination of VMS, C
>> with embedded SQL and Ingres.  Please don't ask as I don't know the
>> answer :)
>
> Anti-virus, anti-malware, defragmenters, registry cleaners, needing to
> reboot every time I install or update software?
>
> No grep, no awk, no sed?
>
> No thanks.
>
> But never mind; each to his own. I don't want to spark OS wars.
>

I haven't the faintest idea what your response means so please explainn.

-- 
If you're using GoogleCrap™ please read this 
http://wiki.python.org/moin/GoogleGroupsPython.

Mark Lawrence

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#43236

On Tue, 09 Apr 2013 23:09:19 +0100, Mark Lawrence wrote:

> On 09/04/2013 22:09, Walter Hurry wrote:
>> On Tue, 09 Apr 2013 16:51:26 +0100, Mark Lawrence wrote:
>>> Having never really used a *nix box in anger how would I know?  A
>>> substantial portion of my career was spent on a combination of VMS, C
>>> with embedded SQL and Ingres.  Please don't ask as I don't know the
>>> answer :)
>>
>> Anti-virus, anti-malware, defragmenters, registry cleaners, needing to
>> reboot every time I install or update software?
>>
>> No grep, no awk, no sed?
>>
>> No thanks.
>>
>> But never mind; each to his own. I don't want to spark OS wars.
>>
>>
> I haven't the faintest idea what your response means so please explainn.


Walter is pointing out that as a Windows user, you probably have to deal 
with problems that Unix users are barely even aware of, like viruses, the 
registry, having to reboot after installing software, etc., and you are 
missing out on oodles of useful and powerful tools like grep. He finds 
your decision to use Windows curious, but respects your decision to use 
it and doesn't want to get into an unproductive war over which is the 
best OS.



-- 
Steven

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#43237

On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 9:21 AM, Steven D'Aprano
<steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> wrote:
> Walter is pointing out that as a Windows user...

Walter is also assuming that Mark is a Windows user, which was never
actually stated :)

ChrisA

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#43240

On Wed, 10 Apr 2013 09:28:26 +1000, Chris Angelico wrote:

> On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 9:21 AM, Steven D'Aprano
> <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> wrote:
>> Walter is pointing out that as a Windows user...
> 
> Walter is also assuming that Mark is a Windows user, which was never
> actually stated :)

From Mark's reply to me:
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.0;
	rv:17.0) Gecko/20130328 Thunderbird/17.0.5

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#43241

On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 9:50 AM, Walter Hurry <walterhurry@lavabit.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 10 Apr 2013 09:28:26 +1000, Chris Angelico wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 9:21 AM, Steven D'Aprano
>> <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> wrote:
>>> Walter is pointing out that as a Windows user...
>>
>> Walter is also assuming that Mark is a Windows user, which was never
>> actually stated :)
>
> From Mark's reply to me:
> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.0;
>         rv:17.0) Gecko/20130328 Thunderbird/17.0.5

My headers say I use Windows, too, but I actually use Linux.

ChrisA

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#43242

On Wed, 10 Apr 2013 10:31:44 +1000, Chris Angelico wrote:

> On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 9:50 AM, Walter Hurry <walterhurry@lavabit.com>
> wrote:
>> On Wed, 10 Apr 2013 09:28:26 +1000, Chris Angelico wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 9:21 AM, Steven D'Aprano
>>> <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> wrote:
>>>> Walter is pointing out that as a Windows user...
>>>
>>> Walter is also assuming that Mark is a Windows user, which was never
>>> actually stated :)
>>
>> From Mark's reply to me:
>> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.0;
>>         rv:17.0) Gecko/20130328 Thunderbird/17.0.5
> 
> My headers say I use Windows, too, but I actually use Linux.

Actually, no they don't. They don't say anything about your OS, and there 
is no User-Agent string.

Since Mark claims to have not seriously used Unix, that rules out Linux, 
FreeBSD, OpenBSD, and modern Apple Mac. It's just barely possible that 
he's still using VMS or Hurd, but really, by a process of elimination the 
most likely answer is that he's using Windows.


-- 
Steven

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#43243

On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 12:00 PM, Steven D'Aprano
<steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> wrote:
> On Wed, 10 Apr 2013 10:31:44 +1000, Chris Angelico wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 9:50 AM, Walter Hurry <walterhurry@lavabit.com>
>> wrote:
>>> From Mark's reply to me:
>>> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.0;
>>>         rv:17.0) Gecko/20130328 Thunderbird/17.0.5
>>
>> My headers say I use Windows, too, but I actually use Linux.
>
> Actually, no they don't. They don't say anything about your OS, and there
> is no User-Agent string.
>
> Since Mark claims to have not seriously used Unix, that rules out Linux,
> FreeBSD, OpenBSD, and modern Apple Mac. It's just barely possible that
> he's still using VMS or Hurd, but really, by a process of elimination the
> most likely answer is that he's using Windows.

Heh, I didn't actually check. But if my user-agent _were_ being
recorded anywhere, it would make it seem that I use Windows.

ChrisA

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#43238

On 10/04/2013 00:21, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> On Tue, 09 Apr 2013 23:09:19 +0100, Mark Lawrence wrote:
>
>> On 09/04/2013 22:09, Walter Hurry wrote:
>>> On Tue, 09 Apr 2013 16:51:26 +0100, Mark Lawrence wrote:
>>>> Having never really used a *nix box in anger how would I know?  A
>>>> substantial portion of my career was spent on a combination of VMS, C
>>>> with embedded SQL and Ingres.  Please don't ask as I don't know the
>>>> answer :)
>>>
>>> Anti-virus, anti-malware, defragmenters, registry cleaners, needing to
>>> reboot every time I install or update software?
>>>
>>> No grep, no awk, no sed?
>>>
>>> No thanks.
>>>
>>> But never mind; each to his own. I don't want to spark OS wars.
>>>
>>>
>> I haven't the faintest idea what your response means so please explainn.
>
>
> Walter is pointing out that as a Windows user, you probably have to deal
> with problems that Unix users are barely even aware of, like viruses, the
> registry, having to reboot after installing software, etc., and you are
> missing out on oodles of useful and powerful tools like grep. He finds
> your decision to use Windows curious, but respects your decision to use
> it and doesn't want to get into an unproductive war over which is the
> best OS.
>

How did VMS get translated into Windows? :)

-- 
If you're using GoogleCrap™ please read this 
http://wiki.python.org/moin/GoogleGroupsPython.

Mark Lawrence

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#43239

On 10/04/2013 00:28, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 9:21 AM, Steven D'Aprano
> <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> wrote:
>> Walter is pointing out that as a Windows user...
>
> Walter is also assuming that Mark is a Windows user, which was never
> actually stated :)
>
> ChrisA
>

Another unicode error with VMS being transposed to Windows? :)

-- 
If you're using GoogleCrap™ please read this 
http://wiki.python.org/moin/GoogleGroupsPython.

Mark Lawrence

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#43232

On 2013-04-09, Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> On 09/04/2013 14:39, Grant Edwards wrote:
>> On 2013-04-09, Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> But wouldn't it have been easier simply to do do a quick sed or whatever
>>>> rather than to spend hours here arguing?
>>>
>>> Where's the fun in that? :)
>>
>> What, you don't think sed is fun?
>
> Having never really used a *nix box in anger how would I know?  A 
> substantial portion of my career was spent on a combination of VMS,

That's no excuse -- DECShell for VMS included sed!  :)

I spent many months months writing a set of shell-scripts and
makefiles that used awk, sed, and their brethren to do automated
testing and building of an 1100 page document that was written in
LaTeX.  It was all on a VMS system.  Unfortunately, the massive
process-creation overhead of VMS hit shell-scripts pretty hard -- a
full V&V run and document build took something like 7 hours.  We
usually only ran it overnight.

> C with embedded SQL and Ingres.  Please don't ask as I don't know the
> answer :)

-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! FROZEN ENTREES may
                                  at               be flung by members of
                              gmail.com            opposing SWANSON SECTS ...

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#43106

On Mon, 08 Apr 2013 19:43:51 +0100, Nobody wrote:

> On Sun, 07 Apr 2013 01:30:45 +0000, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> 
>> Am I the only one here who has used a typewriter?
>> 
>> Tab stops were set manually, to a physical distance into the page,
>> using a mechanical stop. This long predates the "rule" that tab stops
>> are every 8 characters.
> 
> And your point is?
> 
> Typewriters don't have a tab "character". The information regarding tab
> stops is conveyed out-of-band from the typist to the typewriter, and
> doesn't need to persist beyond the time taken to type the document.

Both text editors and typewriters encode information about tab settings 
out of band. Editors encode that information in some combination of 
program configuration, command-line switches, environment variables, and 
embedded mode lines in the document itself. Typewriters encode that 
information in the typists' memory, or failing that, in the actual 
physical space left on the page. That's a difference that makes no 
difference.

My point is that there were well-established semantics for what a tab 
should do, and the "8 character tab" is not that. Pressing the tab key on 
a keyboard while entering text ought to instruct the editor to advance to 
a specified tab stop capable of being set anywhere on the page. Word 
processors use that model: the word processor stores the positions of the 
tab stops out of band, usually in the "paragraph formatting" or "style 
sheet", but in principle they could keep the position of the tab stops 
global to the document or even global to the application.

Good text editors also support this model. Some versions of Vim, for 
example, include a feature called "variable tabstops". Emacs includes a 
variable called tab-stop-list which can set variable tab stops[1]. Even 
the Linux command "less" supports variable width tabs, with the -x option.

In case you think this is only for Unix editors, the Windows "Boxer Text 
Editor" also supports variable tab stops.

There may, or may not be, good reasons for an eight character default 
setting for tab stops. But eight characters is not, and never has been, 
the One True Way of setting tab stops.




[1] Although what happens when you press the tab key in Emacs is so 
complicated that only three people in the world have ever understood it 
fully. The first is Richard Stallman, then second is dead, and the third 
has gone mad.


-- 
Steven

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#43111

On Apr 9, 7:51 am, Steven D'Aprano <steve
+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info> wrote:
> On Mon, 08 Apr 2013 19:43:51 +0100, Nobody wrote:
> > On Sun, 07 Apr 2013 01:30:45 +0000, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>
> >> Am I the only one here who has used a typewriter?
>
> >> Tab stops were set manually, to a physical distance into the page,
> >> using a mechanical stop. This long predates the "rule" that tab stops
> >> are every 8 characters.
>
> > And your point is?
>
> > Typewriters don't have a tab "character". The information regarding tab
> > stops is conveyed out-of-band from the typist to the typewriter, and
> > doesn't need to persist beyond the time taken to type the document.
>
> Both text editors and typewriters encode information about tab settings
> out of band. Editors encode that information in some combination of
> program configuration, command-line switches, environment variables, and
> embedded mode lines in the document itself. Typewriters encode that
> information in the typists' memory, or failing that, in the actual
> physical space left on the page. That's a difference that makes no
> difference.
>
> My point is that there were well-established semantics for what a tab
> should do, and the "8 character tab" is not that. Pressing the tab key on
> a keyboard while entering text ought to instruct the editor to advance to
> a specified tab stop capable of being set anywhere on the page. Word
> processors use that model: the word processor stores the positions of the
> tab stops out of band, usually in the "paragraph formatting" or "style
> sheet", but in principle they could keep the position of the tab stops
> global to the document or even global to the application.

Dunno what you mean by 'out-of-band'
If I set tabstops for a para to say 4-13-25-36 in a wordprocessor,
save the file and look inside, I will find the tuple (4,13,25,36) in
some encoded form.
For a typewritten page, if the margin seems to be at 11th col, the
reader cannot know from the page alone whether the typist
1. set the tab at 11
2. set the tab at 8 and pressed TAB followed by 3 SPC
3. Started with 2 and switched to 1

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#43113

On Apr 9, 9:06 am, rusi <rustompm...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Dunno what you mean by 'out-of-band'
> If I set tabstops for a para to say 4-13-25-36 in a wordprocessor,
> save the file and look inside, I will find the tuple (4,13,25,36) in
> some encoded form.

To make this conform to current practices, I should use some length-
unit not characters which I had in mind.

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#43115

On Mon, 08 Apr 2013 21:06:42 -0700, rusi wrote:

> On Apr 9, 7:51 am, Steven D'Aprano <steve
> +comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info> wrote:
>> On Mon, 08 Apr 2013 19:43:51 +0100, Nobody wrote:
>> > On Sun, 07 Apr 2013 01:30:45 +0000, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>>
>> >> Am I the only one here who has used a typewriter?
>>
>> >> Tab stops were set manually, to a physical distance into the page,
>> >> using a mechanical stop. This long predates the "rule" that tab
>> >> stops are every 8 characters.
>>
>> > And your point is?
>>
>> > Typewriters don't have a tab "character". The information regarding
>> > tab stops is conveyed out-of-band from the typist to the typewriter,
>> > and doesn't need to persist beyond the time taken to type the
>> > document.
>>
>> Both text editors and typewriters encode information about tab settings
>> out of band. Editors encode that information in some combination of
>> program configuration, command-line switches, environment variables,
>> and embedded mode lines in the document itself. Typewriters encode that
>> information in the typists' memory, or failing that, in the actual
>> physical space left on the page. That's a difference that makes no
>> difference.
>>
>> My point is that there were well-established semantics for what a tab
>> should do, and the "8 character tab" is not that. Pressing the tab key
>> on a keyboard while entering text ought to instruct the editor to
>> advance to a specified tab stop capable of being set anywhere on the
>> page. Word processors use that model: the word processor stores the
>> positions of the tab stops out of band, usually in the "paragraph
>> formatting" or "style sheet", but in principle they could keep the
>> position of the tab stops global to the document or even global to the
>> application.
> 
> Dunno what you mean by 'out-of-band'

I mean that the information about the tab stops are not inherent to the 
tab itself.


> If I set tabstops for a para to say 4-13-25-36 in a wordprocessor, save
> the file and look inside, I will find the tuple (4,13,25,36) in some
> encoded form.

There's nothing about the *tab character itself* that says "jump to 
column 25". That information is metadata, stored external to the tab. 
That doesn't necessarily mean external to the file. A word-processing 
file carries a lot of metadata about the document.

A plain text file is a better example. If I type up a document in (say) 
OpenOffice and use tabs to align a table, I might manually set the tabs 
to 4cm, 9cm, 18cm. When I hit tab, the cursor will jump to (say) 18cm, 
but if I save the document as plain text, that information is not stored 
anywhere in the document. It may be encoded in the OpenOffice config, 
e.g. in the "Normal" stylesheet.

The same applies for documents created in a text editor, say Vim or 
Emacs. They may store the metadata about tab settings as mode lines in 
the document, or in an environment variable, or in a config file, or 
perhaps nowhere at all. Just like a typewriter.


> For a typewritten page, if the margin seems to be at 11th col, the
> reader cannot know from the page alone whether the typist 1. set the tab
> at 11
> 2. set the tab at 8 and pressed TAB followed by 3 SPC 3. Started with 2
> and switched to 1

Very true. Manual typewriters are not identical to text editors. 
Typewriters can do both more *and* less than text editors. E.g. you can 
compose extra symbols by backspacing and overtyping, but you cannot 
usually distinguish between space-tab and space-space-tab.

But from the perspective of "duplicate what you see on the page", the 
difference between space-tab and space-space-tab does not matter. What 
matters is where you end up, not how you get there.



-- 
Steven

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#42909

terminatorul@gmail.com wrote:

>[...]
>> The "def" line has four spaces.  The "for" line then has a hard tab.
>> This is ambiguous.  If the hard tab is assumed to have a width of four
>> spaces, then they are at the same indentation level.  If it is assumed
>> to have a width of eight spaces, then they are not.
>[...]
>
>The correct tab stop positions have always been at 8 character columns apart.
>The "ambiguity" was introduced by editors that do not follow the default value 
>set in hardware like printers or used by consoles and terminal emulators.
>
>And now python forces me out of using any tab characters at all. I believe I 
>should still have a choice, python should at lest give an option to set tab 
>size, if the default of 8 is ambiguous now.

You know the Unix command 'expand'? If you used tabs representing eight 
columns consequently, use expand on your python scripts to convert tabs 
to spaces before running them.



Best regards,

Günther

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#42868

On Saturday, April 6, 2013 1:42:15 AM UTC+3, Ian wrote:
[...]
> The "def" line has four spaces.  The "for" line then has a hard tab.
> This is ambiguous.  If the hard tab is assumed to have a width of four
> spaces, then they are at the same indentation level.  If it is assumed
> to have a width of eight spaces, then they are not.
[...]

The correct tab stop positions have always been at 8 character columns apart.
The "ambiguity" was introduced by editors that do not follow the default value set in hardware like printers or used by consoles and terminal emulators.

And now python forces me out of using any tab characters at all. I believe I should still have a choice, python should at lest give an option to set tab size, if the default of 8 is ambiguous now.

Thank you,
Timothy Madden

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#42861

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

You underestimated the arrogance of Python.  Python 3 tab doesn't map to 4
spaces.  It doesn't map to any number of spaces.  Tabs and spaces are
completely unrelated.  If you have a function having the first indentation
level with 4 (or any number of) spaces, the next line starting not with 4
spaces but instead with a tab always lead you to the TabError exception.

If you like to play tricks, you can use "4 spaces plus a tab" as the next
indentation level.  I'd rather not do this kind of things, and forget about
use using tabs at all.  You are out of luck if you want to play the
tab-space tricks, but if you follow the lead, you'll soon find that code
will be more reliable without tabs, especially if you cut-and-paste code of
others.


On Sat, Apr 6, 2013 at 6:04 AM, <terminatorul@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Saturday, April 6, 2013 12:55:29 AM UTC+3, John Gordon wrote:
> > In <64d4fb7c-6a75-4b5f-b5c8-06a4b2b5d0cb@googlegroups.com>
> terminatorul@gmail.com writes:
> >
> > > How can python authors be so arrogant to impose their tabs and spaces
> > > options on me ? It should be my choice if I want to use tabs or not !
> >
> > You are free to use tabs, but you must be consistent.  You can't mix
> > tabs and spaces for lines of code at the same indentation level.
>
> They say so, but python does not work that way. This is a simple script:
>
> from unittest import TestCase
>
> class SvnExternalCmdTests(TestCase) :
>     def test_parse_svn_external(self) :
>         for sample_external in sample_svn_externals :
>             self.assertEqual(parse_svn_externals(sample_external[0][0],
> sample_external[0][1]), [ sample_external[1] ])
>
> And at the `for` statement at line 5 I get:
>
> C:\Documents and Settings\Adrian\Projects>python sample-py3.py
>   File "sample-py3.py", line 5
>     for sample_external in sample_svn_externals :
>                                                 ^
> TabError: inconsistent use of tabs and spaces in indentation
>
>
> Line 5 is the only line in the file that starts at col 9 (after a tab).
> Being the only line in the file with that indent level, how can it be
> inconsistent ?
>
> You can try the script as it is, and see python 3.3 will not run it
> --
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>

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#42862

On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 4:42 PM, Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> wrote:
> Python 2 resolved this ambiguity by assuming that a hard tab was
> simply equivalent to four or eight spaces (I don't remember which).

In fact, neither is correct.  Per the docs:

    ...tabs are replaced (from left to right) by one to eight spaces
such that the total number of characters up to and including the
replacement is a multiple of eight...

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#42884

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On Sat, Apr 6, 2013 at 7:41 AM, <terminatorul@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hello
>
> I just tried python 3.3 with some simple script meant for unit test.
>
> How can python authors be so arrogant to impose their tabs and spaces
> options on me ? It should be my choice if I want to use tabs or not !
>
>
Don't like it? Use ruby.



> I know people have all goten into this frenzy of using either tabs, either
> spaces for indentation, but using a hard-tab of 8 spaces and a soft tab of
> 4 spaces has worked fine long before python 3 showed up.
>
> And if they decided to throw a TabError, they should have at least created
> an option to specify tab size, so I can work around that.
>
> I am aware that so many editors use a tab stop of 4 spaces instead of 8
> (which by the way started as a cheap way to work around their initial lack
> of a "soft tab stop" option, and then was kept at 4 for "compatibility").
> But the rest of us who always use a tab stop of 8 should not be forced to
> change preferences because python reached version 3.
>
> Timothy Madden
> --
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>



-- 
"The UNIX system has a command, nice ... in order to be nice to the other
users. Nobody ever uses it." - Andrew S. Tanenbaum

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#42886

On Saturday, April 6, 2013 7:28:55 AM UTC+3, Dylan Evans wrote:
> On Sat, Apr 6, 2013 at 7:41 AM,  <termin...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Hello
> 
> 
> I just tried python 3.3 with some simple script meant for unit test.
> 
> How can python authors be so arrogant to impose their tabs and spaces options on me ? It should be my choice if I want to use tabs or not !
> 
> 
> Don't like it? Use ruby.


Actually next on my list is perl. I know ruby is sexy, but taming the wild beast is what makes me feel like the real cowboy.

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