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Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly

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  Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-11-30 00:44 +0000
    Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-11-30 01:07 +0000
    Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-11-29 21:08 -0500
      Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-11-30 13:12 +1100
        Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-11-29 21:28 -0500
          Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly Dave Angel <davea@davea.name> - 2013-11-29 22:06 -0500
      Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-11-30 04:21 +0000
        Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-11-29 23:30 -0500
        Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly Zero Piraeus <z@etiol.net> - 2013-11-30 02:05 -0300
          Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-11-30 06:25 +0000
        Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly Gene Heskett <gheskett@wdtv.com> - 2013-11-30 00:25 -0500
        Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-11-30 00:37 -0500
          Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-11-29 23:00 -0700
            Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-11-30 07:11 +0000
          Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-11-30 07:41 +0000
            Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2013-12-01 11:41 +1300
      Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-11-30 08:07 +0000
      Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2013-11-30 11:11 -0800
        Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2013-12-01 11:37 +1300
          Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2013-11-30 18:07 -0500
            Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2013-12-01 08:57 -0800
          Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-12-01 00:22 +0000
            Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2013-11-30 18:52 -0600
              Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-12-01 00:54 +0000
                Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2013-11-30 19:05 -0600
                Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-01 12:13 +1100
                  Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-11-30 20:27 -0500
                    Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-01 12:31 +1100
    Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly Serhiy Storchaka <storchaka@gmail.com> - 2013-12-01 20:00 +0200
      Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2013-12-01 12:15 -0800
        Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly Tim Delaney <timothy.c.delaney@gmail.com> - 2013-12-02 07:54 +1100
          Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2013-12-02 04:39 -0800
            Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-12-02 14:46 +0000
            Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2013-12-02 10:22 -0500
            Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-12-02 15:45 +0000
            Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-03 02:49 +1100
            Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2013-12-02 10:58 -0500
            Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2013-12-02 15:26 -0500
            Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-12-02 20:45 +0000
            Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2013-12-02 16:44 -0500
            Code of Conduct, Trolls, and Thankless Jobs  [was Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly] Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2013-12-02 13:25 -0800
            Re: Code of Conduct, Trolls, and Thankless Jobs  [was Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly] Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-12-02 22:04 +0000
              Re: Code of Conduct, Trolls, and Thankless Jobs  [was Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly] Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-12-02 20:38 -0500
                Pythonista Goals  [was Re: Code of Conduct, Trolls, and Thankless Jobs] Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2013-12-02 17:56 -0800
                Re: Code of Conduct, Trolls, and Thankless Jobs  [was Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly] Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-12-03 04:32 +0000
                  Re: Code of Conduct, Trolls, and Thankless Jobs  [was Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly] Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2013-12-03 05:41 +0000
                  Re: Code of Conduct, Trolls, and Thankless Jobs  [was Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly] Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-12-03 12:14 +0000
                Re: Code of Conduct, Trolls, and Thankless Jobs [was Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly] Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-12-03 12:11 +0000
            Re: Code of Conduct, Trolls, and Thankless Jobs  [was Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly] Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2013-12-02 17:23 -0500
            Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2013-12-02 17:24 -0500
            Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-12-02 22:32 +0000
            Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2013-12-02 17:53 -0500
            Re: Code of Conduct, Trolls, and Thankless Jobs Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2013-12-03 10:11 +1100
            Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2013-12-02 14:41 -0800
            Re: Code of Conduct, Trolls, and Thankless Jobs  [was Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly] Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2013-12-02 22:22 -0500
            Re: Code of Conduct, Trolls, and Thankless Jobs Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2013-12-02 22:39 -0500
            Re: Code of Conduct, Trolls, and Thankless Jobs  [was Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly] Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2013-12-02 20:11 -0800
        Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-12-01 22:06 +0000
        Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly Tim Delaney <timothy.c.delaney@gmail.com> - 2013-12-02 09:29 +1100
        Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-12-01 23:10 +0000
        Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2013-12-01 14:50 -0800
        Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-12-02 00:43 +0000
    Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2013-12-02 12:38 -0800
    Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2013-12-02 16:14 -0500
      Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2013-12-03 05:06 +0000
        Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly joe <joeedh@gmail.com> - 2013-12-02 23:35 -0800
        Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2013-12-03 10:34 -0800
    Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-03 08:23 +1100
    Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2013-12-02 21:27 +0000
    Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2013-12-02 13:27 -0800
    Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2013-12-03 09:56 +1100
    Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2013-12-03 13:47 +0000
    Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2013-12-03 06:26 -0800
      Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2013-12-04 05:52 -0800
        Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-12-04 14:07 +0000
        Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2013-12-04 14:38 +0000

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#60890 — Code of Conduct, Trolls, and Thankless Jobs [was Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly]

On 12/02/2013 12:45 PM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
> On 02/12/2013 20:26, Terry Reedy wrote:
>> On 12/2/2013 10:45 AM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
>>
>>> the worst loser in the world
>>
>> Mark, I consider your continual direct personal attacks on other posters
>> to be a violation of the PSF Code of Conduct, which *does* apply to
>> python-list. Please stop.
>
> The attacks that "Joseph McCarthy" has been launching on the core developers for the last 15 months are in my view now
> perfectly acceptable.  This is excellent news.  Everybody can now say what they like about the core developers and
> there's no comeback.
>
> You can also stuff the code of conduct, it's quite clearly only brought into play when it suits.  Never, ever aim it at
> somebody who goes out of their way to stir things up, always target it at the people who fight back *IS THE RULE HERE*.

Mark,  I sympathize with your feelings.  jmf is certainly a troll, and it doesn't feel like anything has been, or is 
being, done about that situation (or for that matter, the help vampire situation... although I haven't seen any threads 
from that one lately -- did he give up, or has he been moderated away?).  However, I would suggest that when you are 
venting, you write the email and then just delete it.  I personally don't mind the light and humorous posts, but when 
the name-calling starts it makes the list an unfriendly place to be.  And, to be clear, the coddling of trolls and 
help-vampires also makes the list an unfriendly place to be.

Terry, would it be appropriate to share some of what the moderators do do for us on this list and the others?  And what 
does the Code of Conduct have to say about trolls and help-vampires?

--
~Ethan~

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#60892 — Re: Code of Conduct, Trolls, and Thankless Jobs [was Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly]

On 02/12/2013 21:25, Ethan Furman wrote:
> On 12/02/2013 12:45 PM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
>> On 02/12/2013 20:26, Terry Reedy wrote:
>>> On 12/2/2013 10:45 AM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
>>>
>>>> the worst loser in the world
>>>
>>> Mark, I consider your continual direct personal attacks on other posters
>>> to be a violation of the PSF Code of Conduct, which *does* apply to
>>> python-list. Please stop.
>>
>> The attacks that "Joseph McCarthy" has been launching on the core
>> developers for the last 15 months are in my view now
>> perfectly acceptable.  This is excellent news.  Everybody can now say
>> what they like about the core developers and
>> there's no comeback.
>>
>> You can also stuff the code of conduct, it's quite clearly only
>> brought into play when it suits.  Never, ever aim it at
>> somebody who goes out of their way to stir things up, always target it
>> at the people who fight back *IS THE RULE HERE*.
>
> Mark,  I sympathize with your feelings.  jmf is certainly a troll, and
> it doesn't feel like anything has been, or is being, done about that
> situation (or for that matter, the help vampire situation... although I
> haven't seen any threads from that one lately -- did he give up, or has
> he been moderated away?).  However, I would suggest that when you are
> venting, you write the email and then just delete it.  I personally
> don't mind the light and humorous posts, but when the name-calling
> starts it makes the list an unfriendly place to be.  And, to be clear,
> the coddling of trolls and help-vampires also makes the list an
> unfriendly place to be.
>
> Terry, would it be appropriate to share some of what the moderators do
> do for us on this list and the others?  And what does the Code of
> Conduct have to say about trolls and help-vampires?
>
> --
> ~Ethan~

I deleted the first really spiteful reply, but the hypocrisy that 
continues to be shown gets right up both of my nostrils, hence I 
couldn't resist the above, greatly toned down response.  This will 
surely give an indication of how strongly I feel on issues such as this. 
  Rules are rules to be applied evenly, not on a pick and choose basis.

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence

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#60905 — Re: Code of Conduct, Trolls, and Thankless Jobs [was Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly]

In article <mailman.3485.1386021891.18130.python-list@python.org>,
 Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

> My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
> what you can do for our language.

"I believe that Pythonistas should commit themselves to achieving the 
goal, before this decade is out, of making Python 3 the default version 
and having everybody be cool with unicode."

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#60910 — Pythonista Goals [was Re: Code of Conduct, Trolls, and Thankless Jobs]

On 12/02/2013 05:38 PM, Roy Smith wrote:
> Mark Lawrence wrote:
>>
>> My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask
>> what you can do for our language.
>
> "I believe that Pythonistas should commit themselves to achieving the
> goal, before this decade is out, of making Python 3 the default version
> and having everybody be cool with unicode."

Hear, Hear!

+1000!  :D

--
~Ethan~

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#60916 — Re: Code of Conduct, Trolls, and Thankless Jobs [was Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly]

On 2013-12-03, Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> wrote:

> "I believe that Pythonistas should commit themselves to achieving the 
> goal, before this decade is out, of making Python 3 the default version 
> and having everybody be cool with unicode."

I'm cool with Unicode as long as it "just works" without me ever
having to understand it and I can interact effortlessly with plain old
ASCII files.  Evertime I start to read anything about Unicode with any
technical detail at all, I start to get dizzy and bleed from the ears.

-- 
Grant

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#60919 — Re: Code of Conduct, Trolls, and Thankless Jobs [was Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly]

On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 04:32:13 +0000, Grant Edwards wrote:

> On 2013-12-03, Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> wrote:
> 
>> "I believe that Pythonistas should commit themselves to achieving the
>> goal, before this decade is out, of making Python 3 the default version
>> and having everybody be cool with unicode."
> 
> I'm cool with Unicode as long as it "just works" without me ever having
> to understand it 

That will never happen. Unicode is a bit like floating point maths: 
there's always *some* odd corner case that will lead to annoyance and 
confusion and even murder:

http://gizmodo.com/382026/a-cellphones-missing-dot-kills-two-people-puts-three-more-in-jail

And then there are legacy encodings. There are three things in life that 
are inevitable: death, taxes, and text with the wrong encoding. Anyone 
dealing with text they didn't generate themselves is going to have to 
deal with mojibake at some point.

Having said that, if you control the text and always use UTF-8 for 
storage and transmission, Unicode isn't that hard. Decode bytes to 
Unicode as early as possible, do all your work in text rather than bytes, 
then encode back to bytes as late as possible, and you'll be fine.


> and I can interact effortlessly with plain old ASCII files.  

That at least is easy, provided you can guarantee that what you think if 
plain ol' ASCII actually is plain ol' ASCII, which isn't as easy as you 
might think given that an awful lot of people think that "extended ASCII" 
is a thing and that you ought to be able to deal with it just like ASCII.


> Evertime I start to read anything about Unicode with any
> technical detail at all, I start to get dizzy and bleed from the ears.

Heh, the standard certainly covers a lot of ground.


-- 
Steven

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#60927 — Re: Code of Conduct, Trolls, and Thankless Jobs [was Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly]

On 03/12/2013 04:32, Grant Edwards wrote:
> On 2013-12-03, Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> wrote:
>
>> "I believe that Pythonistas should commit themselves to achieving the
>> goal, before this decade is out, of making Python 3 the default version
>> and having everybody be cool with unicode."
>
> I'm cool with Unicode as long as it "just works" without me ever
> having to understand it and I can interact effortlessly with plain old
> ASCII files.  Evertime I start to read anything about Unicode with any
> technical detail at all, I start to get dizzy and bleed from the ears.
>

I'm pleased to see that I'm not the only one who suffers in this way :)

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence

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#60929 — Re: Code of Conduct, Trolls, and Thankless Jobs [was Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly]

On 03/12/2013 01:38, Roy Smith wrote:
> In article <mailman.3485.1386021891.18130.python-list@python.org>,
>   Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask
>> what you can do for our language.
>
> "I believe that Pythonistas should commit themselves to achieving the
> goal, before this decade is out, of making Python 3 the default version
> and having everybody be cool with unicode."
>

I like that, thank you.

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence

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#60893 — Re: Code of Conduct, Trolls, and Thankless Jobs [was Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly]

On 12/2/13 4:25 PM, Ethan Furman wrote:
> On 12/02/2013 12:45 PM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
>> On 02/12/2013 20:26, Terry Reedy wrote:
>>> On 12/2/2013 10:45 AM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
>>>
>>>> the worst loser in the world
>>>
>>> Mark, I consider your continual direct personal attacks on other posters
>>> to be a violation of the PSF Code of Conduct, which *does* apply to
>>> python-list. Please stop.
>>
>> The attacks that "Joseph McCarthy" has been launching on the core
>> developers for the last 15 months are in my view now
>> perfectly acceptable.  This is excellent news.  Everybody can now say
>> what they like about the core developers and
>> there's no comeback.
>>
>> You can also stuff the code of conduct, it's quite clearly only
>> brought into play when it suits.  Never, ever aim it at
>> somebody who goes out of their way to stir things up, always target it
>> at the people who fight back *IS THE RULE HERE*.
>
> Mark,  I sympathize with your feelings.  jmf is certainly a troll, and
> it doesn't feel like anything has been, or is being, done about that
> situation (or for that matter, the help vampire situation... although I
> haven't seen any threads from that one lately -- did he give up, or has
> he been moderated away?).  However, I would suggest that when you are
> venting, you write the email and then just delete it.  I personally
> don't mind the light and humorous posts, but when the name-calling
> starts it makes the list an unfriendly place to be.  And, to be clear,
> the coddling of trolls and help-vampires also makes the list an
> unfriendly place to be.
>
> Terry, would it be appropriate to share some of what the moderators do
> do for us on this list and the others?  And what does the Code of
> Conduct have to say about trolls and help-vampires?
>
> --
> ~Ethan~

We have pointed help-vampires at the Code of Conduct: 
https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2013-November/660343.html

He's also banned from the mailing list, which reduces the number of 
people who see his questions, and helps keep threads from exploding. For 
example, this message to the newsgroup 
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/comp.lang.python/fdhF_Fr4fX0/9B0iK8jGigkJ (sorry 
for the groups link, didn't know how else to link to a post) doesn't 
appear at all in the mailing list, and therefore, in gmane.

But the mailing list ban isn't why you aren't seeing posts from him: he 
hasn't posted again since that linked message, on Nov 21.

I think he's not posting in part because we adopted a uniform stance of 
politely refusing to answer his questions, or even completely ignoring 
his questions.

Of course, he could be back at any time.  I hope we'll continue to 
present a calm unified front.

--Ned.

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#60894

On 12/2/13 4:44 PM, Ned Batchelder wrote:
> On 12/2/13 3:45 PM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
>> On 02/12/2013 20:26, Terry Reedy wrote:
>>> On 12/2/2013 10:45 AM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
>>>
>>>> the worst loser in the world
>>>
>>> Mark, I consider your continual direct personal attacks on other posters
>>> to be a violation of the PSF Code of Conduct, which *does* apply to
>>> python-list. Please stop.
>>>
>>
>> The attacks that "Joseph McCarthy" has been launching on the core
>> developers for the last 15 months are in my view now perfectly
>> acceptable.  This is excellent news.  Everybody can now say what they
>> like about the core developers and there's no comeback.
>>
>> You can also stuff the code of conduct, it's quite clearly only brought
>> into play when it suits.  Never, ever aim it at somebody who goes out of
>> their way to stir things up, always target it at the people who fight
>> back *IS THE RULE HERE*.
>>
>
> The point is that in this thread, no one was making attacks on core
> developers.  You were bringing up old animosity here for no reason at
> all, and making them personal attacks to boot.
>
> I don't see how you think wxjmfauth was "going out of his way to stir
> things up" in *this* thread.  He made three comments, none of which
> mentioned the FSR or any other controversial topic.  Can't we respond to
> the content of posts, and not to past offenses by the poster?
>
> Additionally, wxjmfauth's past complaints about the flexible string
> representation were not personal.  He didn't say, "Joe Smith is the
> worst loser in the world for writing the FSR".  He complained about a
> feature of CPython, baselessly, but he never attacked the people doing
> the work.  His continued complaints were aggravating, I agree. I don't
> know that they rose to the level of "disrespectful".
>
> I know that your behavior here is disrespectful.
>
> As to when the code of conduct is brought up, it's only fairly recently
> that it has been mentioned in this forum.  There have clearly been posts
> in recent memory (the last year) which could have been examined in light
> of the code of conduct, and were not. I think we are using it more
> uniformly now. You helped me realize better how to apply it to this
> forum, and I thank you for that.  I welcome your help in applying it
> better still.  But it applies to you as well and I don't think it's too
> much to ask that you abide by it.
>
> The way to improve this list is to respectfully point to and demonstrate
> community norms and ask people to conform to them.  Spewing vitriol
> isn't going to fix anything.
>
> --Ned.
>
>

BTW: I think Mark has kill-filed me, so if anyone agrees enough with me 
here to want Mark to see it, someone else will have to respond before he 
gets the text.

--Ned.

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#60895

On 02/12/2013 22:24, Ned Batchelder wrote:
> On 12/2/13 4:44 PM, Ned Batchelder wrote:
>> On 12/2/13 3:45 PM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
>>> On 02/12/2013 20:26, Terry Reedy wrote:
>>>> On 12/2/2013 10:45 AM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> the worst loser in the world
>>>>
>>>> Mark, I consider your continual direct personal attacks on other
>>>> posters
>>>> to be a violation of the PSF Code of Conduct, which *does* apply to
>>>> python-list. Please stop.
>>>>
>>>
>>> The attacks that "Joseph McCarthy" has been launching on the core
>>> developers for the last 15 months are in my view now perfectly
>>> acceptable.  This is excellent news.  Everybody can now say what they
>>> like about the core developers and there's no comeback.
>>>
>>> You can also stuff the code of conduct, it's quite clearly only brought
>>> into play when it suits.  Never, ever aim it at somebody who goes out of
>>> their way to stir things up, always target it at the people who fight
>>> back *IS THE RULE HERE*.
>>>
>>
>> The point is that in this thread, no one was making attacks on core
>> developers.  You were bringing up old animosity here for no reason at
>> all, and making them personal attacks to boot.
>>
>> I don't see how you think wxjmfauth was "going out of his way to stir
>> things up" in *this* thread.  He made three comments, none of which
>> mentioned the FSR or any other controversial topic.  Can't we respond to
>> the content of posts, and not to past offenses by the poster?
>>
>> Additionally, wxjmfauth's past complaints about the flexible string
>> representation were not personal.  He didn't say, "Joe Smith is the
>> worst loser in the world for writing the FSR".  He complained about a
>> feature of CPython, baselessly, but he never attacked the people doing
>> the work.  His continued complaints were aggravating, I agree. I don't
>> know that they rose to the level of "disrespectful".
>>
>> I know that your behavior here is disrespectful.
>>
>> As to when the code of conduct is brought up, it's only fairly recently
>> that it has been mentioned in this forum.  There have clearly been posts
>> in recent memory (the last year) which could have been examined in light
>> of the code of conduct, and were not. I think we are using it more
>> uniformly now. You helped me realize better how to apply it to this
>> forum, and I thank you for that.  I welcome your help in applying it
>> better still.  But it applies to you as well and I don't think it's too
>> much to ask that you abide by it.
>>
>> The way to improve this list is to respectfully point to and demonstrate
>> community norms and ask people to conform to them.  Spewing vitriol
>> isn't going to fix anything.
>>
>> --Ned.
>>
>>
>
> BTW: I think Mark has kill-filed me, so if anyone agrees enough with me
> here to want Mark to see it, someone else will have to respond before he
> gets the text.
>
> --Ned.
>

I've kill-filed you on my personnal email address which I asked you 
specifically *NOT* to message me on.  You completely ignored that 
request.  FTR you're only the second person I've ever done that to, the 
other being a pot smoking hippy who thankfully hasn't been seen for years.

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence

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#60897

On 12/2/13 5:32 PM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
> On 02/12/2013 22:24, Ned Batchelder wrote:
>> On 12/2/13 4:44 PM, Ned Batchelder wrote:
>>> On 12/2/13 3:45 PM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
>>>> On 02/12/2013 20:26, Terry Reedy wrote:
>>>>> On 12/2/2013 10:45 AM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> the worst loser in the world
>>>>>
>>>>> Mark, I consider your continual direct personal attacks on other
>>>>> posters
>>>>> to be a violation of the PSF Code of Conduct, which *does* apply to
>>>>> python-list. Please stop.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The attacks that "Joseph McCarthy" has been launching on the core
>>>> developers for the last 15 months are in my view now perfectly
>>>> acceptable.  This is excellent news.  Everybody can now say what they
>>>> like about the core developers and there's no comeback.
>>>>
>>>> You can also stuff the code of conduct, it's quite clearly only brought
>>>> into play when it suits.  Never, ever aim it at somebody who goes
>>>> out of
>>>> their way to stir things up, always target it at the people who fight
>>>> back *IS THE RULE HERE*.
>>>>
>>>
>>> The point is that in this thread, no one was making attacks on core
>>> developers.  You were bringing up old animosity here for no reason at
>>> all, and making them personal attacks to boot.
>>>
>>> I don't see how you think wxjmfauth was "going out of his way to stir
>>> things up" in *this* thread.  He made three comments, none of which
>>> mentioned the FSR or any other controversial topic.  Can't we respond to
>>> the content of posts, and not to past offenses by the poster?
>>>
>>> Additionally, wxjmfauth's past complaints about the flexible string
>>> representation were not personal.  He didn't say, "Joe Smith is the
>>> worst loser in the world for writing the FSR".  He complained about a
>>> feature of CPython, baselessly, but he never attacked the people doing
>>> the work.  His continued complaints were aggravating, I agree. I don't
>>> know that they rose to the level of "disrespectful".
>>>
>>> I know that your behavior here is disrespectful.
>>>
>>> As to when the code of conduct is brought up, it's only fairly recently
>>> that it has been mentioned in this forum.  There have clearly been posts
>>> in recent memory (the last year) which could have been examined in light
>>> of the code of conduct, and were not. I think we are using it more
>>> uniformly now. You helped me realize better how to apply it to this
>>> forum, and I thank you for that.  I welcome your help in applying it
>>> better still.  But it applies to you as well and I don't think it's too
>>> much to ask that you abide by it.
>>>
>>> The way to improve this list is to respectfully point to and demonstrate
>>> community norms and ask people to conform to them.  Spewing vitriol
>>> isn't going to fix anything.
>>>
>>> --Ned.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> BTW: I think Mark has kill-filed me, so if anyone agrees enough with me
>> here to want Mark to see it, someone else will have to respond before he
>> gets the text.
>>
>> --Ned.
>>
>
> I've kill-filed you on my personnal email address which I asked you
> specifically *NOT* to message me on.  You completely ignored that
> request.  FTR you're only the second person I've ever done that to, the
> other being a pot smoking hippy who thankfully hasn't been seen for years.
>

Yes, I've apologized for that faux pas. I hope that you can forgive me. 
  Someday I hope to understand why it angered you so much.  Good to hear 
that we can communicate here.

--Ned.

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#60899 — Re: Code of Conduct, Trolls, and Thankless Jobs

Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> writes:

> […] the hypocrisy that continues to be shown gets right up both of my
> nostrils, hence I couldn't resist the above, greatly toned down
> response. This will surely give an indication of how strongly I feel
> on issues such as this. Rules are rules to be applied evenly, not on a
> pick and choose basis.

This forum doesn't have authorised moderators, and we don't have a body
of state employees charged with meting out justice evenly to all
parties. If you perceive uneven application of our code of conduct, that
will go a long way to explaining it.

What we do have is a community of volunteers whom we expect to both
uphold the code of conduct and self-apply it to the extent feasible.

This works only if we acknowledge both that we are human and will be
inconsistent and make errors, and conversely that what we *intend* to do
matters less than the actual and potential effects of our actions.

Anyone who feels compelled to be vitriolic here needs to find a way to
stop it, regardless how they perceive the treatment of others. We all
need each other's efforts to keep this community healthy.

-- 
 \      “I don't know half of you half as well as I should like, and I |
  `\   like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.” —Bilbo |
_o__)                                                          Baggins |
Ben Finney

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#60900

On 12/02/2013 02:32 PM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
>
> ... the other being a pot smoking hippy who ...

Please trim your posts.  You comment a lot on people sending double-spaced google posts -- not trimming is nearly as bad.

The above is a good example of unnecessary name calling.

I value your good posts.  Please keep a light-hearted and respectful tone.  When light-hearted doesn't cut it, you can 
still be respectful (of the other readers, even if the offender doesn't deserve it).

--
~Ethan~

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#60912 — Re: Code of Conduct, Trolls, and Thankless Jobs [was Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly]

On 12/2/2013 4:25 PM, Ethan Furman wrote:
> jmf is certainly a troll

No, he is a person who discovered a minor performance regression in the 
FSR, which we fixed. Unfortunately, he then continued for a year with a 
strange troll-like anti-FSR crusade. But his posts in the Unicode 
handling thread were not part of that. It seems to me that continually 
beating someone over the head with the past discourages changed 
behavior.  To me, the point of asking someone to 'stop' is to persuade 
them to stop. The reward for stopping should be to let the issue go.

> haven't seen any threads from that one lately -- did he give up, or has
> he been moderated away?).

Action was taken, including changing the usenet (clr) to mailing-list 
gateway. (I already mentioned this twice here.) The was done by one of 
the mailman infrastructure people at the request of the list 
owner/moderators. The people who stuck their necks out to privately 
contact the person in question displeased him and got privately 
mail-bombed with repeated insults. I guess he subsequently gave up.

> the coddling of trolls and help-vampires also makes the list an
> unfriendly place to be.

I agree with the that as a statement, but not the implication. Was I 
hallucinating, or did you not recently participate in the discussion and 
decision to stop coddling our most obnoxious 'troll' in the community?

> Terry, would it be appropriate to share some of what the moderators do
> do for us on this list and the others?

Python-list moderators discard perhaps one spam post a day. You already 
noticed a recent major benefit.

> And what does the Code of
> Conduct have to say about trolls and help-vampires?

I need to re-read it to really answer that adequately. The term and 
defined concept 'help-vampire' is new to me (as of a month ago) and 
probably to the CoC writers.  However, the behavior strikes me as 
disrespectful of the community, and that *is* generically covered.

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy

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#60914 — Re: Code of Conduct, Trolls, and Thankless Jobs

On 12/2/2013 6:11 PM, Ben Finney wrote:

> This forum doesn't have authorised moderators,

At least some PSF mailing lists have 1 or more PSF-authorized moderators 
(currently 4 for python-list) who pretty thanklessly check the initial 
posts of new subscribers and posts flagged by the spam detector as 
possible spam, or with other problems. We do not have 'every-post' 
moderation.

> If you perceive uneven application of our code of conduct,

As far as I know, there has been just one non-spam application of CoC
to python-list: Nikos. I do not see how anyone could call that uneven or 
unfair.

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy

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#60917 — Re: Code of Conduct, Trolls, and Thankless Jobs [was Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly]

On 12/02/2013 07:22 PM, Terry Reedy wrote:
> On 12/2/2013 4:25 PM, Ethan Furman wrote:
>> jmf is certainly a troll
>
> No, he is a person who discovered a minor performance regression in the FSR, which we fixed. Unfortunately, he then
> continued for a year with a strange troll-like anti-FSR crusade. But his posts in the Unicode handling thread were not
> part of that. It seems to me that continually beating someone over the head with the past discourages changed behavior.
> To me, the point of asking someone to 'stop' is to persuade them to stop. The reward for stopping should be to let the
> issue go.

I remember it slightly differently, but you're right -- we should let it drop.


>> the coddling of trolls and help-vampires also makes the list an
>> unfriendly place to be.
>
> I agree with the that as a statement, but not the implication. Was I hallucinating, or did you not recently participate
> in the discussion and decision to stop coddling our most obnoxious 'troll' in the community?

I'm afraid I don't see the point you are trying to make.  I'm against coddling those who refuse to learn and participate 
with respect to the rest of us, and I did vote to stop such coddling [1] of a certain troll.  I don't see the discrepancy.

All that aside, thank you to you and the other moderators for your time and efforts.

--
~Ethan~

[1] Coddling can be an offensive word, and I wish to make clear that initial efforts to educate and help newcomers are 
appropriate and warranted.  However, after some time has passed and the newcomer is no longer a newcomer and is still 
exhibiting rude and ignorant behavior, further attempts to help most likely won't, and that is when I would classify 
such attempts as coddling.

--
~Ethan~

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#60843

On 01/12/2013 20:54, Tim Delaney wrote:
> On 2 December 2013 07:15, <wxjmfauth@gmail.com
> <mailto:wxjmfauth@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>     0.11.13 02:44, Steven D'Aprano написав(ла):
>      > (2) If you reverse that string, does it give "lëon"? The
>     implication of
>      > this question is that strings should operate on grapheme clusters
>     rather
>      > than code points. ...
>      >
>
>     BTW, a grapheme cluster *is* a code points cluster.
>
>
> Anyone with a decent level of reading comprehension would have
> understood that Steven knows that. The implied word is "individual" i.e.
> "... rather than [individual] code points".
>
> Why am I responding to a troll? Probably because out of all his baseless
> complaints about the FSR, he *did* have one valid point about
> performance that has now been fixed.
>
> Tim Delaney
>
>

I don't remember him ever having a valid point, so FTR can we have a 
reference please.  I do remember Steven D'Aprano showing that there was 
a regression which I flagged up here http://bugs.python.org/issue16061. 
  It was fixed by Serhiy Storchaka, who appears to have forgotten more 
about Python than I'll ever know, grrr!!! :)

-- 
Python is the second best programming language in the world.
But the best has yet to be invented.  Christian Tismer

Mark Lawrence

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#60845

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On 2 December 2013 09:06, Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

> I don't remember him ever having a valid point, so FTR can we have a
> reference please.  I do remember Steven D'Aprano showing that there was a
> regression which I flagged up here http://bugs.python.org/issue16061.  It
> was fixed by Serhiy Storchaka, who appears to have forgotten more about
> Python than I'll ever know, grrr!!! :)
>

>From your own bug report (quoting Steven): "Nevertheless, I think there is
something here. The consequences are nowhere near as dramatic as jmf claims
..."

His initial postings did lead to a regression being found.

Tim Delaney

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#60847

On 01/12/2013 22:29, Tim Delaney wrote:
> On 2 December 2013 09:06, Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk
> <mailto:breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk>> wrote:
>
>     I don't remember him ever having a valid point, so FTR can we have a
>     reference please.  I do remember Steven D'Aprano showing that there
>     was a regression which I flagged up here
>     http://bugs.python.org/__issue16061
>     <http://bugs.python.org/issue16061>.  It was fixed by Serhiy
>     Storchaka, who appears to have forgotten more about Python than I'll
>     ever know, grrr!!! :)
>
>
>  From your own bug report (quoting Steven): "Nevertheless, I think there
> is something here. The consequences are nowhere near as dramatic as jmf
> claims ..."
>
> His initial postings did lead to a regression being found.
>
> Tim Delaney
>
>

I'll begrudgungly concede that point, but must state that it was was an 
edge case that is unlikely to have too much impact in the real world. 
Unfortunately he's still making his ridiculous claims about the FSR, 
hence my nickname of "Joseph McCarthy".  I'll admit to liking that, it 
just feels right to me, YMMV.

What also really riles me is that he uses double spaced google crap, 
despite repeated requests from various people here for others to fix how 
they use it, or get a decent email client.

-- 
Python is the second best programming language in the world.
But the best has yet to be invented.  Christian Tismer

Mark Lawrence

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