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Groups > comp.lang.python > #48289 > unrolled thread
| Started by | "D'Arcy J.M. Cain" <darcy@druid.net> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2013-06-15 07:58 -0400 |
| Last post | 2013-06-15 13:04 -0400 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 95 — 22 participants |
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Re: Don't feed the troll... "D'Arcy J.M. Cain" <darcy@druid.net> - 2013-06-15 07:58 -0400
Re: Don't feed the troll... Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-15 15:40 +0000
Re: Don't feed the troll... Chris “Kwpolska” Warrick <kwpolska@gmail.com> - 2013-06-15 18:41 +0200
Re: Don't feed the troll... Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-15 17:12 +0000
Re: Don't feed the troll... Nick the Gr33k <support@superhost.gr> - 2013-06-15 20:30 +0300
Re: Don't feed the troll... rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-06-15 10:36 -0700
Re: Don't feed the troll... Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-15 17:52 +0000
Re: Don't feed the troll... rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-06-15 11:18 -0700
Re: Don't feed the troll... Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-15 19:29 +0000
Re: Don't feed the troll... alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2013-06-15 14:47 -0700
Re: Don't feed the troll... Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-06-15 23:04 +0100
Re: Don't feed the troll... Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-06-16 20:16 +0200
Re: Don't feed the troll... Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-16 20:04 +0000
Re: Don't feed the troll... rurpy@yahoo.com - 2013-06-16 20:46 -0700
Re: Don't feed the troll... Ferrous Cranus <support@superhost.gr> - 2013-06-17 08:04 +0300
Re: Don't feed the troll... Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-17 17:23 +1000
Re: Don't feed the troll... rurpy@yahoo.com - 2013-06-17 07:41 -0700
Re: Don't feed the troll... Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-18 07:43 +1000
Re: Don't feed the troll... rurpy@yahoo.com - 2013-06-17 18:03 -0700
Re: Don't feed the troll... Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-18 11:16 +1000
Re: Don't feed the troll... Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-06-17 23:22 +0100
Re: Don't feed the troll... rurpy@yahoo.com - 2013-06-17 18:08 -0700
Problems with Python documentation [Re: Don't feed the troll...] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-17 22:50 +0000
Re: Problems with Python documentation [Re: Don't feed the troll...] Joel Goldstick <joel.goldstick@gmail.com> - 2013-06-17 21:11 -0400
Re: Don't feed the troll... Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-06-17 10:26 +0200
Re: Don't feed the troll... Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-06-17 10:15 +0200
Re: Don't feed the troll... rurpy@yahoo.com - 2013-06-17 10:56 -0700
Re: Don't feed the troll... Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-06-18 10:22 +0200
Re: Don't feed the troll... Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-06-18 13:42 +0000
Re: Don't feed the troll... rurpy@yahoo.com - 2013-06-18 20:46 -0700
Re: Don't feed the troll... Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-06-19 12:57 +0200
Re: Don't feed the troll... rurpy@yahoo.com - 2013-06-19 14:13 -0700
Re: Don't feed the troll... Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-06-21 21:32 +0200
Re: Don't feed the troll... rurpy@yahoo.com - 2013-06-23 07:29 -0700
Re: Don't feed the troll... Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-06-24 15:37 +0200
Re: Don't feed the troll... rurpy@yahoo.com - 2013-06-25 08:56 -0700
Re: Don't feed the troll... Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-06-26 21:46 +0200
Re: Don't feed the troll... Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-06-26 15:02 -0600
Re: Don't feed the troll... Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-06-27 20:13 +0200
Re: Don't feed the troll... Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-06-28 11:20 -0600
Re: Don't feed the troll... Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-06-30 19:25 +0200
Re: Don't feed the troll... rurpy@yahoo.com - 2013-07-01 07:02 -0700
Re: Don't feed the troll... Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-07-01 21:38 +0200
Re: Don't feed the troll... rurpy@yahoo.com - 2013-07-02 16:41 -0700
Re: Don't feed the troll... Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-07-02 00:09 +1000
Re: Don't feed the troll... Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-06-30 11:50 -0600
Re: Don't feed the troll... Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-06-30 19:56 +0200
Re: Don't feed the troll... Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-06-25 11:25 -0600
Re: Don't feed the troll... Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-06-26 20:18 +0200
Re: Don't feed the troll... Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-06-19 12:40 -0600
Re: Don't feed the troll... Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-20 00:47 +0000
Re: Don't feed the troll... Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2013-06-19 19:45 -0400
Re: Don't feed the troll... Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-06-20 11:41 +0200
Re: Don't feed the troll... Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-06-20 20:40 -0600
Re: Don't feed the troll... Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-06-21 11:18 +0200
Re: Don't feed the troll... Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-06-21 10:19 -0600
Re: Don't feed the troll... rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-06-21 11:27 -0700
Re: Don't feed the troll... Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-06-17 09:31 +0200
Re: Don't feed the troll... Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-17 23:02 +0000
Re: Don't feed the troll... Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-06-18 11:02 +0200
Re: Don't feed the troll... rurpy@yahoo.com - 2013-06-15 12:54 -0700
Re: Don't feed the troll... Nick the Gr33k <support@superhost.gr> - 2013-06-15 23:04 +0300
Re: Don't feed the troll... rurpy@yahoo.com - 2013-06-15 13:12 -0700
Re: Don't feed the troll... rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-06-16 22:52 -0700
Re: Don't feed the troll... Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-06-16 20:39 +0200
Re: Don't feed the troll... Simpleton <support@superhost.gr> - 2013-06-17 19:03 +0300
Re: Don't feed the troll... Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-06-17 16:14 +0000
Re: Don't feed the troll... Simpleton <support@superhost.gr> - 2013-06-17 19:19 +0300
Re: Don't feed the troll... alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2013-06-17 21:39 -0700
Re: Don't feed the troll... Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-18 17:21 +1000
Re: Don't feed the troll... Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-06-18 13:38 +0000
Re: Don't feed the troll... Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2013-06-18 19:48 -0400
Re: Don't feed the troll... Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-06-19 03:57 +0000
Re: Don't feed the troll... rurpy@yahoo.com - 2013-06-18 20:49 -0700
Re: Don't feed the troll... Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-19 17:07 +1000
Re: Don't feed the troll... Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-19 07:27 +0000
Re: Don't feed the troll... Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-19 17:33 +1000
Re: Don't feed the troll... Joel Goldstick <joel.goldstick@gmail.com> - 2013-06-17 11:53 -0400
Re: Don't feed the troll... Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2013-06-15 11:49 -0600
Re: Don't feed the troll... Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-06-15 18:45 +0100
Re: Don't feed the troll... Andreas Perstinger <andipersti@gmail.com> - 2013-06-15 19:58 +0200
Re: Don't feed the troll... Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-06-17 14:39 +0000
Re: Don't feed the troll... "D'Arcy J.M. Cain" <darcy@druid.net> - 2013-06-17 12:35 -0400
Re: Don't feed the troll... Oscar Benjamin <oscar.j.benjamin@gmail.com> - 2013-06-17 18:42 +0100
Re: Don't feed the troll... Νίκος <support@superhost.gr> - 2013-06-17 20:52 +0300
Re: Don't feed the troll... Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2013-06-18 22:21 +1000
Re: Don't feed the troll... "D'Arcy J.M. Cain" <darcy@druid.net> - 2013-06-15 13:07 -0400
Mailman forwarding (was: Don't feed the troll...) "W. Trevor King" <wking@tremily.us> - 2013-06-15 13:25 -0400
Re: Don't feed the troll... Chris “Kwpolska” Warrick <kwpolska@gmail.com> - 2013-06-15 19:25 +0200
Re: Don't feed the troll... Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-15 17:47 +0000
Re: Don't feed the troll... Nick the Gr33k <support@superhost.gr> - 2013-06-15 21:59 +0300
Re: Don't feed the troll... Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-16 09:09 +1000
Re: Don't feed the troll... Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-16 00:51 +0000
CC etiquette for mailing lists (was: Don't feed the troll...) "W. Trevor King" <wking@tremily.us> - 2013-06-15 21:29 -0400
Re: Don't feed the troll... "D'Arcy J.M. Cain" <darcy@druid.net> - 2013-06-15 13:04 -0400
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| From | "D'Arcy J.M. Cain" <darcy@druid.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-06-15 07:58 -0400 |
| Subject | Re: Don't feed the troll... |
| Message-ID | <mailman.3375.1371297517.3114.python-list@python.org> |
On Sat, 15 Jun 2013 21:29:35 +1000 Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> wrote: > > Bah. Plenty of us like both. In the inbox alerts me that someone > > replied to _my_ post, and in the python mail gets it nicely > > threaded. > > Your mail client doesn't alert you to a message addressed to you? Every message in my mailbox is addressed to me otherwise I wouldn't get it. Do you mean the To: line? Which address? I have about a dozen addresses not counting the plus sign addresses like the one you use for this list. Which one should I treat as special? > > Sorry, I could have sworn you said you weren't using a mail client > > for this... > > As I already said, this is demonstrating the fact that “reply to all” > is broken even for the use case of participating via email. As the person who proposed this I would like to point out that I never suggested "reply to all”. I suggested including the poster that you are replying to. -- D'Arcy J.M. Cain <darcy@druid.net> | Democracy is three wolves http://www.druid.net/darcy/ | and a sheep voting on +1 416 788 2246 (DoD#0082) (eNTP) | what's for dinner. IM: darcy@Vex.Net, VOIP: sip:darcy@Vex.Net
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| From | Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-06-15 15:40 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <51bc8af2$0$29997$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com> |
| In reply to | #48289 |
On Sat, 15 Jun 2013 07:58:27 -0400, D'Arcy J.M. Cain wrote: > I suggested including the poster that you are replying to. In the name of all that's good and decent in the world, why on earth would you do that when replying to a mailing list??? They're already getting a reply. Sending them TWO identical replies is just rude. -- Steven
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| From | Chris “Kwpolska” Warrick <kwpolska@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-06-15 18:41 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <mailman.3386.1371314532.3114.python-list@python.org> |
| In reply to | #48312 |
On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 5:40 PM, Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> wrote: > On Sat, 15 Jun 2013 07:58:27 -0400, D'Arcy J.M. Cain wrote: > >> I suggested including the poster that you are replying to. > > In the name of all that's good and decent in the world, why on earth > would you do that when replying to a mailing list??? They're already > getting a reply. Sending them TWO identical replies is just rude. Mailman is intelligent enough not to send a second copy in that case. This message was sent with a CC, and you got only one copy. -- Kwpolska <http://kwpolska.tk> | GPG KEY: 5EAAEA16 stop html mail | always bottom-post http://asciiribbon.org | http://caliburn.nl/topposting.html
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| From | Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-06-15 17:12 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <51bca091$0$29997$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com> |
| In reply to | #48319 |
On Sat, 15 Jun 2013 18:41:41 +0200, Chris “Kwpolska” Warrick wrote: > On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 5:40 PM, Steven D'Aprano > <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> wrote: >> On Sat, 15 Jun 2013 07:58:27 -0400, D'Arcy J.M. Cain wrote: >> >>> I suggested including the poster that you are replying to. >> >> In the name of all that's good and decent in the world, why on earth >> would you do that when replying to a mailing list??? They're already >> getting a reply. Sending them TWO identical replies is just rude. > > Mailman is intelligent enough not to send a second copy in that case. > This message was sent with a CC, and you got only one copy. Wrong. I got two copies. One via comp.lang.python, and one direct to me. -- Steven
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| From | Nick the Gr33k <support@superhost.gr> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-06-15 20:30 +0300 |
| Message-ID | <kpi8bk$n5$5@news.ntua.gr> |
| In reply to | #48319 |
On 15/6/2013 7:41 μμ, Chris “Kwpolska” Warrick wrote: > On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 5:40 PM, Steven D'Aprano > <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> wrote: >> On Sat, 15 Jun 2013 07:58:27 -0400, D'Arcy J.M. Cain wrote: >> >>> I suggested including the poster that you are replying to. >> >> In the name of all that's good and decent in the world, why on earth >> would you do that when replying to a mailing list??? They're already >> getting a reply. Sending them TWO identical replies is just rude. > > Mailman is intelligent enough not to send a second copy in that case. > This message was sent with a CC, and you got only one copy. > > -- > Kwpolska <http://kwpolska.tk> | GPG KEY: 5EAAEA16 > stop html mail | always bottom-post > http://asciiribbon.org | http://caliburn.nl/topposting.html > You are spamming my thread. -- What is now proved was at first only imagined!
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| From | rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-06-15 10:36 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <6dc5124d-3b00-4d53-a555-b7f31765abd7@ow4g2000pbc.googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #48329 |
On Jun 15, 10:30 pm, Nick the Gr33k <supp...@superhost.gr> wrote: > > You are spamming my thread. With you as our spamming-guru, Onward! Sky is the limit!
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| From | Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-06-15 17:52 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <51bca9eb$0$29997$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com> |
| In reply to | #48330 |
On Sat, 15 Jun 2013 10:36:00 -0700, rusi wrote: > With you as our spamming-guru, Onward! Sky is the limit! If you're going to continue making unproductive, off-topic, inflammatory posts that prolong these already excessively large threads, Nikos won't be the only one kill-filed. If you have nothing helpful to say, send it to /dev/null. -- Steven
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| From | rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-06-15 11:18 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <35734e52-2396-4ec2-938f-d5b0f592adf5@4g2000pbf.googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #48339 |
On Jun 15, 10:52 pm, Steven D'Aprano <steve +comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info> wrote: > On Sat, 15 Jun 2013 10:36:00 -0700, rusi wrote: > > With you as our spamming-guru, Onward! Sky is the limit! > > If you're going to continue making unproductive, off-topic, inflammatory > posts that prolong these already excessively large threads, Nikos won't > be the only one kill-filed. At least two people -- Alex and Antoon -- have told you that by supporting Nikos, when everyone else wants him off list, you are part of the problem. Others -- Fabio -- have indicated their wish to leave the list due to everything becoming Nikos-tainted. Everyone is exasperated and talking of kill-filing him. Let me remind you of your post: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2013-June/649581.html In this post you have imputed masturbation to first-time poster for a quite valid question. [I am assuming that google is correct in informing me that choking the chicken means that]. This is way beyond being rude uncalled-for and generally unacceptable. I suggest it is because of something else you said -- viz that Nikos mails are draining you. In short because you are unable to restrain your charitable behavior towards Nikos -- note that this is charity at public (the group) expense -- you are behaving abominably in other contexts, including towards first time posters. If you must help Nikos, please do it in private. He is not wanted here. [This is not specifically addressed to you Steven alone but to all who are feeling charitable at public expense]
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| From | Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-06-15 19:29 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <51bcc094$0$29997$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com> |
| In reply to | #48345 |
On Sat, 15 Jun 2013 11:18:03 -0700, rusi wrote: > At least two people -- Alex and Antoon -- have told you that by > supporting Nikos, when everyone else wants him off list, you are part of > the problem. And others have publicly thanked me for giving useful answers to Nikos, because they have learned from them. You replied to Antoon, and agreed with his position that we should shun Nikos, then *immediately* contradicted yourself by stating that Robert Kern's helpful answers were "the ideal". And then, just to further demonstrate that your actions are at best inconsistent and at worst hypocritical, you have since gone on to fire barbs at Nikos instead of ignoring him. So please tend to the beam in your own eye before pointing at the mote in mine. > Others -- Fabio -- have indicated their wish to leave the list due to > everything becoming Nikos-tainted. That would be disappointing, but there's nothing I can do about it. > Everyone is exasperated and talking of kill-filing him. Then why don't they? "Don't feed the troll" includes trying to beat him into submission with insults and half-witty remarks. This is not about Nikos. It's about those who are also doing their bit to make this community an ugly, hostile place. I won't mention names -- you know who you are. Those who take it upon themselves to bait and prod and poke Nikos with insults and inflammatory replies. Appointing themselves Internet Police and making ridiculous claims that Nikos ought to be reported to the police. Sending bogus complaints to the domain registrar. There is a word for this sort of behaviour: bullying. I don't care how morally justified you think you are, you are now just as big a part of the problem as Nikos. > Let me remind you of your post: > http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2013-June/649581.html > > In this post you have imputed masturbation to first-time poster for a > quite valid question. > [I am assuming that google is correct in informing me that choking the > chicken means that]. > This is way beyond being rude uncalled-for and generally unacceptable. Not as rude as making such a misleading characterisation of my post. The original poster's reply is one click away from that link: "Thank you for your help and sense of humor... all the best, Buford" http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2013-June/649680.html If you insist on taking umbrage on behalf of the OP, I can't stop you, but that says more about you than about me. -- Steven
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| From | alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-06-15 14:47 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <60445b41-bf0b-47fc-9941-de4a7ad36195@wf10g2000pbc.googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #48352 |
On Jun 16, 5:29 am, Steven D'Aprano <steve +comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info> wrote: > And others have publicly thanked me for giving useful answers to Nikos, > because they have learned from them. I take it you'll also be critical of people on list now saying "we don't do your homework for you"? Or is there some fundamental difference here that I'm missing? That others have derived value from some of the desperate flailings to fill Nikos' alleged ignorance doesn't mean there's any value in his original posts. I also strongly disagree with your claim that you've given "useful answers" to him: his reposting *code you've written for him* asking others to modify it to his liking would indicate he's learned nothing at all from your approach. Well, nothing other than that if he keeps this crap up, there apparently *are* people who will repeatedly do his job for him, which I guess makes you the current god of his cargo cult. So, uh, well done?
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| From | Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-06-15 23:04 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <mailman.3415.1371333939.3114.python-list@python.org> |
| In reply to | #48376 |
On 15/06/2013 22:47, alex23 wrote: > On Jun 16, 5:29 am, Steven D'Aprano <steve > +comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info> wrote: >> And others have publicly thanked me for giving useful answers to Nikos, >> because they have learned from them. > > I take it you'll also be critical of people on list now saying "we > don't do your homework for you"? Or is there some fundamental > difference here that I'm missing? > > That others have derived value from some of the desperate flailings to > fill Nikos' alleged ignorance doesn't mean there's any value in his > original posts. I also strongly disagree with your claim that you've > given "useful answers" to him: his reposting *code you've written for > him* asking others to modify it to his liking would indicate he's > learned nothing at all from your approach. > > Well, nothing other than that if he keeps this crap up, there > apparently *are* people who will repeatedly do his job for him, which > I guess makes you the current god of his cargo cult. So, uh, well done? > +1 -- "Steve is going for the pink ball - and for those of you who are watching in black and white, the pink is next to the green." Snooker commentator 'Whispering' Ted Lowe. Mark Lawrence
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| From | Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-06-16 20:16 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <mailman.3449.1371406662.3114.python-list@python.org> |
| In reply to | #48352 |
Op 15-06-13 21:29, Steven D'Aprano schreef: > On Sat, 15 Jun 2013 11:18:03 -0700, rusi wrote: > >> At least two people -- Alex and Antoon -- have told you that by >> supporting Nikos, when everyone else wants him off list, you are part of >> the problem. > > And others have publicly thanked me for giving useful answers to Nikos, > because they have learned from them. That doesn't contradict that you may be part of the problem. There is something like the law of diminishing returns. So the kind of respons that is helpful at the beginnig can become part of the problem when it becomes part of a seemingly endless cycle. > You replied to Antoon, and agreed with his position that we should shun > Nikos, then *immediately* contradicted yourself by stating that Robert > Kern's helpful answers were "the ideal". And then, just to further > demonstrate that your actions are at best inconsistent and at worst > hypocritical, you have since gone on to fire barbs at Nikos instead of > ignoring him. So please tend to the beam in your own eye before pointing > at the mote in mine. So what. We all are somewhat inconsistent and hypocritical. That doesn't make your responses unproblematic. If in the future you want to respond like Robert Kern that seems fine enough. But if you continue like you are now, I'll consider you an enabler. >> Others -- Fabio -- have indicated their wish to leave the list due to >> everything becoming Nikos-tainted. > > That would be disappointing, but there's nothing I can do about it. Yes you can. You can stop enabling his behaviour. Now you may think this is an unacceptable option for and that is something you will have to decide for yourself but you do have a choice. >> Everyone is exasperated and talking of kill-filing him. > > Then why don't they? "Don't feed the troll" includes trying to beat him > into submission with insults and half-witty remarks. Not feeding the troll doesn't help. If people are transgressing the social norms in a community, they need to get a response that makes it clear they crossed the line. If they don't you are implicetly broadcasting the message there is no out of bound behaviour. > This is not about Nikos. It's about those who are also doing their bit to > make this community an ugly, hostile place. I won't mention names -- you > know who you are. Those who take it upon themselves to bait and prod and > poke Nikos with insults and inflammatory replies. Appointing themselves > Internet Police and making ridiculous claims that Nikos ought to be > reported to the police. Sending bogus complaints to the domain registrar. > There is a word for this sort of behaviour: bullying. I don't care how > morally justified you think you are, you are now just as big a part of > the problem as Nikos. You are trying to get it both ways. On the one hand you try to argue that there are no boundaries to what is acceptable by calling people who do try to enforce such boundaries the Internet Police. On the other hand you do suggest that playing Internet Police is out of bound behaviour. You have to make a choice. Either you don't want to recognize there can be something like out of bound behaviour and then people making this community an ugly hostile place is acceptable. Or you think there is behaviour that is out of bounds and then you must consider the possiblity that Nikos behaviour is an example of that and that what you consider ugly responses are people trying to address that out of bound behaviour and that you responding to Nikos as you do for the moment is perpetuating Nokos's unacceptable behaviour. -- Antoon Pardon
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| From | Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-06-16 20:04 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <51be1a42$0$29966$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com> |
| In reply to | #48464 |
On Sun, 16 Jun 2013 20:16:34 +0200, Antoon Pardon wrote: > You are trying to get it both ways. On the one hand you try to argue > that there are no boundaries I have never, ever argued that there are no boundaries. I have repeatedly made it clear to Nikos when I thought he was behaving improperly. And I've done the same to others when they've acted improperly. > to what is acceptable by calling people who > do try to enforce such boundaries the Internet Police. On the other hand > you do suggest that playing Internet Police is out of bound behaviour. Yes. Trying to start flame wars with Nikos is unacceptable behaviour. It is unproductive, it makes this a hostile, unpleasant place to be, it ruins the environment for the rest of the community, it's off topic, and it simply doesn't work to discourage trolls. -- Steven
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| From | rurpy@yahoo.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-06-16 20:46 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <96ed14e3-79dd-40c2-8063-aa58a42c7b57@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #48477 |
On 06/16/2013 02:04 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote: > On Sun, 16 Jun 2013 20:16:34 +0200, Antoon Pardon wrote: > >> You are trying to get it both ways. On the one hand you try to argue >> that there are no boundaries > > I have never, ever argued that there are no boundaries. I have repeatedly > made it clear to Nikos when I thought he was behaving improperly. And > I've done the same to others when they've acted improperly. > >> to what is acceptable by calling people who >> do try to enforce such boundaries the Internet Police. On the other hand >> you do suggest that playing Internet Police is out of bound behaviour. > > Yes. Trying to start flame wars with Nikos is unacceptable behaviour. It > is unproductive, it makes this a hostile, unpleasant place to be, it > ruins the environment for the rest of the community, it's off topic, and > it simply doesn't work to discourage trolls. The difficulty with trying to suppress such responses is that the flamers get just as much pleasure from having a target to unrestrainedly spew their pent up anger and vile at, as the troll gets from simulating that reaction. The result is a positive feedback loop. I could be wrong but I don't think Nikos is a pure troll -- someone motivated purely by provoking reaction and discord. He has a real website and his problems with Python seem like genuine problems many beginners have. He seems to have little knowledge, not much concern for anyone else but a lot of determination to get things working. I have certainly known people like that in the real world. I speculate that half of his "bad behavior" is simple "I want now and don't care about your conventions". The rest is a reaction to "we're the alphas, your a beta" attitude expressed by many here and later, overt hostility directed at him. He has changed some things -- his posting method, he's made an effort to understand his encoding issues, etc. So I think Steven's approach of responding to his questions, at least those that are coherent and don't require reading a dozen posts over several threads to piece together, with an actual attempt to help (not a bunch of obscure hints, links to wikipedia, and "you're an idiot" replies) is right. If Nikos fails to respond with better questions, then those that do answer will get tired of trying to help and stop answering. In the meantime everyone else can just killfile or otherwise ignore him rather than egging him on by intentionally provoking him (unless of course you enjoy the results.) So positive reinforcement for less bad behavior, negative reinforcement (which for trolling is NO response, not negative responses) for more bad. Standard behavioral conditioning. And if it doesn't work it will still be a much nicer and quieter here with only Nikos' trolling than with 10x as much garbage from the local vigilantes who are more obnoxious than he.
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| From | Ferrous Cranus <support@superhost.gr> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-06-17 08:04 +0300 |
| Message-ID | <kpm5d1$250s$1@news.ntua.gr> |
| In reply to | #48491 |
On 17/6/2013 6:46 πμ, rurpy@yahoo.com wrote: > I could be wrong but I don't think Nikos is a pure troll -- > someone motivated purely by provoking reaction and discord. > He has a real website and his problems with Python seem like > genuine problems many beginners have. He seems to have little > knowledge, not much concern for anyone else but a lot of > determination to get things working. I have certainly known > people like that in the real world. This is the best definition of me. It is very nice to see that someone has understood my character and intentions. The only thing i'm feeling guilty is that instead of reading help files and PEP's which seem too technical for me, i prefer the live help of an actual expert human being. An yes, i'm not trolling this fine newsgroup. If it wasn't for the help of some of the nicest fellows here my site would be up and working neither with Python 3.3.2 nor with 2.6. Many difficulties that occurred to me when trying to write some code were addresses here making my website actually happen. I could have made it to Joomla(that's web design) instead of Python(web development_ but i really like Python and the reason i ask in detail is because i don't want only provided code that will help address an issue i have, but i want to know "how" things work. Thanks for understanding me ruspy. -- What is now proved was at first only imagined!
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| From | Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-06-17 17:23 +1000 |
| Message-ID | <mailman.3470.1371453847.3114.python-list@python.org> |
| In reply to | #48492 |
On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 3:04 PM, Ferrous Cranus <support@superhost.gr> wrote: > The only thing i'm feeling guilty is that instead of reading help files and > PEP's which seem too technical for me, i prefer the live help of an actual > expert human being. > This is definitely a reason to feel guilty. You are asking people to provide live help for free, rather than simply reading the documentation. If the help files are too technical for you, you will need to improve your technical ability. (Though the PEPs shouldn't need to concern you, generally.) Live help is a VERY expensive service to offer, because it involves an expert's time dedicated to one single person. Collective help is far more efficient - that's why documentation exists, because it gets read by far more people than wrote it (at least, that's the theory). ChrisA
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| From | rurpy@yahoo.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-06-17 07:41 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <6ef1ab49-4596-4204-b0f6-10decd4f0d31@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #48503 |
On 06/17/2013 01:23 AM, Chris Angelico wrote: > On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 3:04 PM, Ferrous Cranus <support@superhost.gr> wrote: >> The only thing i'm feeling guilty is that instead of reading help files and >> PEP's which seem too technical for me, i prefer the live help of an actual >> expert human being. > > This is definitely a reason to feel guilty. You are asking people to > provide live help for free, rather than simply reading the > documentation. It is NOT a matter of simply reading the documentation. I have posted here several times as have many others about some of the problems the documentation has, especially for people who don't already know Python. Take a look at issue http://bugs.python.org/issue16665 for an example of why the Python doc has some of the problems that it does. (Please change the subject line if you want to discuss the documentation rather than Nikos.) While the Python tutorial is a good answer for many people it is not the answer for everyone. Many people don't have a large block of time to sit down and go through it from beginning to end. Many people don't learn well reading a large volume of not-immediately-relevant material, trying to commit it to memory, and then trying to apply it all later, as opposed to looking up those aspects of python relevant to what they are attempting at that moment. (I am in that category.) All these problems are aggravated for people whose native language is not English. > If the help files are too technical for you, you will > need to improve your technical ability. (Though the PEPs shouldn't > need to concern you, generally.) Live help is a VERY expensive service > to offer, because it involves an expert's time dedicated to one single > person. Luckily, in a group of volunteers, participants can individually decide how much their time is worth and answer if they want or not if they don't. The reality, regardless of whether you or I think the world should not be this way, is that Nikos has embarked on his website building project and telling him to drop it and come back after he has learned more is totally ineffectual noise. > Collective help is far more efficient - that's why > documentation exists, because it gets read by far more people than > wrote it (at least, that's the theory). Yup. And it works well most of the time but occasionally not.
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| From | Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-06-18 07:43 +1000 |
| Message-ID | <mailman.3494.1371505385.3114.python-list@python.org> |
| In reply to | #48520 |
On Tue, Jun 18, 2013 at 12:41 AM, <rurpy@yahoo.com> wrote: > On 06/17/2013 01:23 AM, Chris Angelico wrote: >> On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 3:04 PM, Ferrous Cranus <support@superhost.gr> wrote: >>> The only thing i'm feeling guilty is that instead of reading help files and >>> PEP's which seem too technical for me, i prefer the live help of an actual >>> expert human being. >> >> This is definitely a reason to feel guilty. You are asking people to >> provide live help for free, rather than simply reading the >> documentation. > > It is NOT a matter of simply reading the documentation. > I have posted here several times as have many others about > some of the problems the documentation has, especially for > people who don't already know Python. I'm aware the docs aren't perfect. But there's a world of difference between: "Here's my code, tell me what's wrong. TELL ME NOW!!" and "Having trouble understanding this function [link to docs] - I expect X but Y happens". That's what I take issue with. The implication behind Nikos's questions is that he *can't be bothered* reading the docs, which he has explicitly confirmed above. That's nothing to do with "the problems the documentation has"; if Python had perfect documentation, he still wouldn't read it. That is a problem. A major problem. ChrisA
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| From | rurpy@yahoo.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-06-17 18:03 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <ad6e5c3c-776e-49c4-b55e-5ab03dc0fad4@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #48566 |
On 06/17/2013 03:43 PM, Chris Angelico wrote: > On Tue, Jun 18, 2013 at 12:41 AM, <rurpy@yahoo.com> wrote: >> On 06/17/2013 01:23 AM, Chris Angelico wrote: >>> On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 3:04 PM, Ferrous Cranus <support@superhost.gr> wrote: >>>> The only thing i'm feeling guilty is that instead of reading help files and >>>> PEP's which seem too technical for me, i prefer the live help of an actual >>>> expert human being. >>> >>> This is definitely a reason to feel guilty. You are asking people to >>> provide live help for free, rather than simply reading the >>> documentation. >> >> It is NOT a matter of simply reading the documentation. >> I have posted here several times as have many others about >> some of the problems the documentation has, especially for >> people who don't already know Python. > > I'm aware the docs aren't perfect. But there's a world of difference between: > > "Here's my code, tell me what's wrong. TELL ME NOW!!" > > and > > "Having trouble understanding this function [link to docs] - I expect > X but Y happens". I'm not sure he even thinks in those terms. He seems to have a hard time isolating misbehaving code to a particular function's behavior. I could speculate that it doesn't occur to him to lookup the function, or it hard to find (I had lots of problems finding stuff in the Python docs at first because the difference between builtins, other functions, methods, classes (look like functions when called) was not clear to me and when I did find the right place the doc was often in terms I didn't understand), or that he does but can't get a clear idea or gets the wrong idea about how it behaves, or... Figuring out how beginners think is something that talented teachers are good at and (from my observations) almost nobody here is. > That's what I take issue with. The implication behind Nikos's > questions is that he *can't be bothered* reading the docs, which he > has explicitly confirmed above. He didn't confirm that at all! You are seeing what you want to see rather than what is there. He said he didn't read them because (see the quoted text above!), "[they] seem too technical for me", not "I can't be bothered". I agree the poor problem descriptions and the "help me now" tone (in other messages) is irritating. But I also realize I don't work for him and have no obligation to respond. So if it is something I can help with and I feel like it and no one else has posted anything useful, I might try. If I don't feel like it a quick click of the mouse moves me to the next topic. What is a waste of time is a "hey, rtfm at this link, dickwad" response. It doesn't help Nikos. It sends the message to everyone else that aggressive responses are ok And it likely prods Nikos (or whomever) to respond in kind. (A link in conjunction with some help though one hopes will be constructive.) > That's nothing to do with "the > problems the documentation has"; "[they] seem too technical for me" doesn't necessarily imply a problem with the docs (although it could) but it does imply their usefulness to Nikos is going to be limited until he gains a better understanding of some of the basic concepts and terminology of Python. And to anticipate the obvious, I am not advocating the docs be written to address Nikos' level of understanding, only that if people with much better understanding also find problems with them, that it is not surprising that Nikos has even more trouble with them, quite possibly finding them not useful at all. > if Python had perfect documentation, > he still wouldn't read it. If your crystal ball is that good, could you try using it to solve some of Nikos' problems? Now in the end you may turn out to be right and Nikos is playing everyone here to get as much free help as possible and those willing to help him are getting suckered. Still, until that becomes clear to me personally I'd rather err of the side of helping him when I can than not. And in either case abusive posts don't help.
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| From | Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-06-18 11:16 +1000 |
| Message-ID | <mailman.3511.1371539769.3114.python-list@python.org> |
| In reply to | #48582 |
On Tue, Jun 18, 2013 at 11:03 AM, <rurpy@yahoo.com> wrote: >> if Python had perfect documentation, >> he still wouldn't read it. > > If your crystal ball is that good, could you try using it > to solve some of Nikos' problems? I have done so, many times. Sometimes it helps, often it doesn't. Once, it led me to accept his root password. You doubtless saw how THAT went over. ChrisA
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