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Groups > comp.lang.python > #48289 > unrolled thread

Re: Don't feed the troll...

Started by"D'Arcy J.M. Cain" <darcy@druid.net>
First post2013-06-15 07:58 -0400
Last post2013-06-15 13:04 -0400
Articles 15 on this page of 95 — 22 participants

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Contents

  Re: Don't feed the troll... "D'Arcy J.M. Cain" <darcy@druid.net> - 2013-06-15 07:58 -0400
    Re: Don't feed the troll... Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-15 15:40 +0000
      Re: Don't feed the troll... Chris “Kwpolska” Warrick <kwpolska@gmail.com> - 2013-06-15 18:41 +0200
        Re: Don't feed the troll... Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-15 17:12 +0000
        Re: Don't feed the troll... Nick the Gr33k <support@superhost.gr> - 2013-06-15 20:30 +0300
          Re: Don't feed the troll... rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-06-15 10:36 -0700
            Re: Don't feed the troll... Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-15 17:52 +0000
              Re: Don't feed the troll... rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-06-15 11:18 -0700
                Re: Don't feed the troll... Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-15 19:29 +0000
                  Re: Don't feed the troll... alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2013-06-15 14:47 -0700
                    Re: Don't feed the troll... Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-06-15 23:04 +0100
                  Re: Don't feed the troll... Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-06-16 20:16 +0200
                    Re: Don't feed the troll... Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-16 20:04 +0000
                      Re: Don't feed the troll... rurpy@yahoo.com - 2013-06-16 20:46 -0700
                        Re: Don't feed the troll... Ferrous Cranus <support@superhost.gr> - 2013-06-17 08:04 +0300
                          Re: Don't feed the troll... Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-17 17:23 +1000
                            Re: Don't feed the troll... rurpy@yahoo.com - 2013-06-17 07:41 -0700
                              Re: Don't feed the troll... Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-18 07:43 +1000
                                Re: Don't feed the troll... rurpy@yahoo.com - 2013-06-17 18:03 -0700
                                  Re: Don't feed the troll... Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-18 11:16 +1000
                              Re: Don't feed the troll... Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-06-17 23:22 +0100
                                Re: Don't feed the troll... rurpy@yahoo.com - 2013-06-17 18:08 -0700
                              Problems with Python documentation [Re: Don't feed the troll...] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-17 22:50 +0000
                                Re: Problems with Python documentation [Re: Don't feed the troll...] Joel Goldstick <joel.goldstick@gmail.com> - 2013-06-17 21:11 -0400
                          Re: Don't feed the troll... Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-06-17 10:26 +0200
                        Re: Don't feed the troll... Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-06-17 10:15 +0200
                          Re: Don't feed the troll... rurpy@yahoo.com - 2013-06-17 10:56 -0700
                            Re: Don't feed the troll... Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-06-18 10:22 +0200
                              Re: Don't feed the troll... Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-06-18 13:42 +0000
                              Re: Don't feed the troll... rurpy@yahoo.com - 2013-06-18 20:46 -0700
                                Re: Don't feed the troll... Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-06-19 12:57 +0200
                                  Re: Don't feed the troll... rurpy@yahoo.com - 2013-06-19 14:13 -0700
                                    Re: Don't feed the troll... Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-06-21 21:32 +0200
                                      Re: Don't feed the troll... rurpy@yahoo.com - 2013-06-23 07:29 -0700
                                        Re: Don't feed the troll... Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-06-24 15:37 +0200
                                          Re: Don't feed the troll... rurpy@yahoo.com - 2013-06-25 08:56 -0700
                                            Re: Don't feed the troll... Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-06-26 21:46 +0200
                                            Re: Don't feed the troll... Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-06-26 15:02 -0600
                                            Re: Don't feed the troll... Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-06-27 20:13 +0200
                                            Re: Don't feed the troll... Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-06-28 11:20 -0600
                                            Re: Don't feed the troll... Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-06-30 19:25 +0200
                                              Re: Don't feed the troll... rurpy@yahoo.com - 2013-07-01 07:02 -0700
                                                Re: Don't feed the troll... Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-07-01 21:38 +0200
                                                  Re: Don't feed the troll... rurpy@yahoo.com - 2013-07-02 16:41 -0700
                                                Re: Don't feed the troll... Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-07-02 00:09 +1000
                                            Re: Don't feed the troll... Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-06-30 11:50 -0600
                                            Re: Don't feed the troll... Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-06-30 19:56 +0200
                                        Re: Don't feed the troll... Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-06-25 11:25 -0600
                                        Re: Don't feed the troll... Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-06-26 20:18 +0200
                                Re: Don't feed the troll... Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-06-19 12:40 -0600
                                  Re: Don't feed the troll... Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-20 00:47 +0000
                                Re: Don't feed the troll... Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2013-06-19 19:45 -0400
                                Re: Don't feed the troll... Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-06-20 11:41 +0200
                                Re: Don't feed the troll... Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-06-20 20:40 -0600
                                Re: Don't feed the troll... Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-06-21 11:18 +0200
                                Re: Don't feed the troll... Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-06-21 10:19 -0600
                                  Re: Don't feed the troll... rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-06-21 11:27 -0700
                      Re: Don't feed the troll... Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-06-17 09:31 +0200
                        Re: Don't feed the troll... Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-17 23:02 +0000
                          Re: Don't feed the troll... Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-06-18 11:02 +0200
                Re: Don't feed the troll... rurpy@yahoo.com - 2013-06-15 12:54 -0700
                  Re: Don't feed the troll... Nick the Gr33k <support@superhost.gr> - 2013-06-15 23:04 +0300
                    Re: Don't feed the troll... rurpy@yahoo.com - 2013-06-15 13:12 -0700
                  Re: Don't feed the troll... rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-06-16 22:52 -0700
                  Re: Don't feed the troll... Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-06-16 20:39 +0200
                    Re: Don't feed the troll... Simpleton <support@superhost.gr> - 2013-06-17 19:03 +0300
                      Re: Don't feed the troll... Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-06-17 16:14 +0000
                        Re: Don't feed the troll... Simpleton <support@superhost.gr> - 2013-06-17 19:19 +0300
                          Re: Don't feed the troll... alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2013-06-17 21:39 -0700
                            Re: Don't feed the troll... Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-18 17:21 +1000
                              Re: Don't feed the troll... Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-06-18 13:38 +0000
                                Re: Don't feed the troll... Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2013-06-18 19:48 -0400
                                  Re: Don't feed the troll... Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-06-19 03:57 +0000
                              Re: Don't feed the troll... rurpy@yahoo.com - 2013-06-18 20:49 -0700
                                Re: Don't feed the troll... Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-19 17:07 +1000
                                  Re: Don't feed the troll... Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-19 07:27 +0000
                                    Re: Don't feed the troll... Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-19 17:33 +1000
                  Re: Don't feed the troll... Joel Goldstick <joel.goldstick@gmail.com> - 2013-06-17 11:53 -0400
          Re: Don't feed the troll... Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2013-06-15 11:49 -0600
          Re: Don't feed the troll... Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-06-15 18:45 +0100
          Re: Don't feed the troll... Andreas Perstinger <andipersti@gmail.com> - 2013-06-15 19:58 +0200
        Re: Don't feed the troll... Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-06-17 14:39 +0000
          Re: Don't feed the troll... "D'Arcy J.M. Cain" <darcy@druid.net> - 2013-06-17 12:35 -0400
          Re: Don't feed the troll... Oscar Benjamin <oscar.j.benjamin@gmail.com> - 2013-06-17 18:42 +0100
            Re: Don't feed the troll... Νίκος <support@superhost.gr> - 2013-06-17 20:52 +0300
          Re: Don't feed the troll... Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2013-06-18 22:21 +1000
      Re: Don't feed the troll... "D'Arcy J.M. Cain" <darcy@druid.net> - 2013-06-15 13:07 -0400
      Mailman forwarding (was: Don't feed the troll...) "W. Trevor King" <wking@tremily.us> - 2013-06-15 13:25 -0400
      Re: Don't feed the troll... Chris “Kwpolska” Warrick <kwpolska@gmail.com> - 2013-06-15 19:25 +0200
        Re: Don't feed the troll... Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-15 17:47 +0000
          Re: Don't feed the troll... Nick the Gr33k <support@superhost.gr> - 2013-06-15 21:59 +0300
          Re: Don't feed the troll... Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-16 09:09 +1000
            Re: Don't feed the troll... Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-16 00:51 +0000
              CC etiquette for mailing lists (was: Don't feed the troll...) "W. Trevor King" <wking@tremily.us> - 2013-06-15 21:29 -0400
      Re: Don't feed the troll... "D'Arcy J.M. Cain" <darcy@druid.net> - 2013-06-15 13:04 -0400

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#48343

FromAndreas Perstinger <andipersti@gmail.com>
Date2013-06-15 19:58 +0200
Message-ID<mailman.3398.1371319111.3114.python-list@python.org>
In reply to#48329
Nick the Gr33k <support@superhost.gr> wrote:
>You are spamming my thread.

Well, you don't own this thread. In fact nobody owns it. This is a
public forum and thus anybody can answer to any post as he likes.

Bye, Andreas

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#48519

FromGrant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid>
Date2013-06-17 14:39 +0000
Message-ID<kpn73s$qha$1@reader1.panix.com>
In reply to#48319
On 2013-06-15, Chris ???Kwpolska??? Warrick <kwpolska@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 5:40 PM, Steven D'Aprano
><steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> wrote:
>> On Sat, 15 Jun 2013 07:58:27 -0400, D'Arcy J.M. Cain wrote:
>>
>>> I suggested including the poster that you are replying to.
>>
>> In the name of all that's good and decent in the world, why on earth
>> would you do that when replying to a mailing list??? They're already
>> getting a reply. Sending them TWO identical replies is just rude.
>
> Mailman is intelligent enough not to send a second copy in that case.
> This message was sent with a CC, and you got only one copy.

I don't want _any_ copies from from Mailman.  I don't subscribe to
whatever mailing list you're talking about.  I'm reading this via an
NNTP server.  Keep replies in the group or on the list.

-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! I just remembered
                                  at               something about a TOAD!
                              gmail.com            

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#48535

From"D'Arcy J.M. Cain" <darcy@druid.net>
Date2013-06-17 12:35 -0400
Message-ID<mailman.3489.1371486964.3114.python-list@python.org>
In reply to#48519
On Mon, 17 Jun 2013 14:39:56 +0000 (UTC)
Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> I don't want _any_ copies from from Mailman.  I don't subscribe to
> whatever mailing list you're talking about.  I'm reading this via an
> NNTP server.  Keep replies in the group or on the list.

And that is part of the problem.  I have always argued that gatewaying
the mailing list to newgroups is wrong.  If this was only a mailing
list there are many things we could do to reduce abuse but because of
the gateway they can't be done.

Not that it matters to me any more.  I have finally decided that this
list is just more noise to signal than I care to deal with.  If anyone
has any comments for me you will have to Cc me as I am outa here.

-- 
D'Arcy J.M. Cain <darcy@druid.net>         |  Democracy is three wolves
http://www.druid.net/darcy/                |  and a sheep voting on
+1 416 788 2246     (DoD#0082)    (eNTP)   |  what's for dinner.
IM: darcy@Vex.Net, VOIP: sip:darcy@Vex.Net

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#48544

FromOscar Benjamin <oscar.j.benjamin@gmail.com>
Date2013-06-17 18:42 +0100
Message-ID<mailman.3492.1371490989.3114.python-list@python.org>
In reply to#48519
On 17 June 2013 17:35, D'Arcy J.M. Cain <darcy@druid.net> wrote:
> On Mon, 17 Jun 2013 14:39:56 +0000 (UTC)
> Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> I don't want _any_ copies from from Mailman.  I don't subscribe to
>> whatever mailing list you're talking about.  I'm reading this via an
>> NNTP server.  Keep replies in the group or on the list.
>
> And that is part of the problem.  I have always argued that gatewaying
> the mailing list to newgroups is wrong.  If this was only a mailing
> list there are many things we could do to reduce abuse but because of
> the gateway they can't be done.

There is a very simple solution used by many mailing lists which is to
set the Reply-To header to point back to the mailing list. That way
any old email client on any OS/computer/phone/website etc. has the
required button to reply to the list without CCing anyone. It also
reduces the chance of accidentally replying off-list. Anyone who wants
to reply off-list or to deliberately CC someone (as I did here) can
still do so but it will rarely happen accidentally.


Oscar

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#48546

FromΝίκος <support@superhost.gr>
Date2013-06-17 20:52 +0300
Message-ID<kpnid4$av7$3@news.grnet.gr>
In reply to#48544
On 17/6/2013 8:42 μμ, Oscar Benjamin wrote:
> On 17 June 2013 17:35, D'Arcy J.M. Cain <darcy@druid.net> wrote:
>> On Mon, 17 Jun 2013 14:39:56 +0000 (UTC)
>> Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>> I don't want _any_ copies from from Mailman.  I don't subscribe to
>>> whatever mailing list you're talking about.  I'm reading this via an
>>> NNTP server.  Keep replies in the group or on the list.
>>
>> And that is part of the problem.  I have always argued that gatewaying
>> the mailing list to newgroups is wrong.  If this was only a mailing
>> list there are many things we could do to reduce abuse but because of
>> the gateway they can't be done.
>
> There is a very simple solution used by many mailing lists which is to
> set the Reply-To header to point back to the mailing list. That way
> any old email client on any OS/computer/phone/website etc. has the
> required button to reply to the list without CCing anyone. It also
> reduces the chance of accidentally replying off-list. Anyone who wants
> to reply off-list or to deliberately CC someone (as I did here) can
> still do so but it will rarely happen accidentally.
>
>
> Oscar
Yes please anyone do so, so we dont get 2 notification in both our mail 
reader and news reader at the same time. just repley only to the list.



-- 
What is now proved was at first only imagined!

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#48623

FromBen Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au>
Date2013-06-18 22:21 +1000
Message-ID<mailman.3528.1371558137.3114.python-list@python.org>
In reply to#48519
Oscar Benjamin <oscar.j.benjamin@gmail.com> writes:

> There is a very simple solution used by many mailing lists

Yes, that solution is described in RFC 2369: the “List-Post” field in
the header of every message sent through the mailing list.

> which is to set the Reply-To header to point back to the mailing list.

That is not a solution, since the ‘Reply-To’ field already has a
different purpose contrary to your intent. It is to be set by the person
sending the message, if they choose. It is not for some intermediary to
interfere with.

It is a field for the sender to direct *individual* responses back to
themselves – and, if they don't set that field, no intermediary should
abuse it.

> That way any old email client on any OS/computer/phone/website etc.
> has the required button to reply to the list without CCing anyone.

By breaking the standard “reply to author” behaviour. This is not a
solution.

The “List-Post” field has been standard for more than a decade. If
anyone is using an MUA that doesn't use it, please imrpove that
situation: pressure your vendor to fix that deficiency, and/or switch to
a better mail client until then.

> It also reduces the chance of accidentally replying off-list.

What damage is done by accidentally replying off-list? At worst, you
merely need to send the message again to the list. The damage is
minimal, and easily rectified.

Your proposed interference with the “Reply-To” field, though, invites
much more serious errors: it sets up a person to send a message to
people they did *not* intend, when using a function (“reply to author”,
often simply called “reply”) specifically for reaching the sender
*only*.

If your message contains information only intended to be seen by the
author to whom they are replying, the standard behaviour for “Reply-To”
gives the reasonable expectation it will go only to the author. But if a
broken mailing list that munges “Reply-To” to direct your reply to the
whole mailing list, that is damage which can't be un-done.

Please don't propose breaking standard behaviour by interfering with the
meaning of standard fields.

We have exactly the fields we need already: the RFC 2369 fields are in
the header of every message from the mailing list. The “List-Post”
field, saying where mail should be directed to reach the mailing list,
is exactly what is needed.

-- 
 \     “Ours is a world where people don't know what they want and are |
  `\       willing to go through hell to get it.” —Donald Robert Perry |
_o__)                                                          Marquis |
Ben Finney

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#48322

From"D'Arcy J.M. Cain" <darcy@druid.net>
Date2013-06-15 13:07 -0400
Message-ID<mailman.3388.1371316057.3114.python-list@python.org>
In reply to#48312
On Sat, 15 Jun 2013 18:41:41 +0200
Chris “Kwpolska” Warrick <kwpolska@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 5:40 PM, Steven D'Aprano
> <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> wrote:
> > In the name of all that's good and decent in the world, why on earth
> > would you do that when replying to a mailing list??? They're already
> > getting a reply. Sending them TWO identical replies is just rude.
> 
> Mailman is intelligent enough not to send a second copy in that case.
> This message was sent with a CC, and you got only one copy.

Actually, no.  Mailman is not your MTA.  It only gets the email sent to
the mailing list.  Your MTA sends the other one directly so Steve is
correct.  He gets two copies.  If his client doesn't suppress the
duplicate then he will be presented with both.

-- 
D'Arcy J.M. Cain <darcy@druid.net>         |  Democracy is three wolves
http://www.druid.net/darcy/                |  and a sheep voting on
+1 416 788 2246     (DoD#0082)    (eNTP)   |  what's for dinner.
IM: darcy@Vex.Net, VOIP: sip:darcy@Vex.Net

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#48326 — Mailman forwarding (was: Don't feed the troll...)

From"W. Trevor King" <wking@tremily.us>
Date2013-06-15 13:25 -0400
SubjectMailman forwarding (was: Don't feed the troll...)
Message-ID<mailman.3390.1371317147.3114.python-list@python.org>
In reply to#48312

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 01:07:29PM -0400, D'Arcy J.M. Cain wrote:
> On Sat, 15 Jun 2013 18:41:41 +0200 Chris “Kwpolska” Warrick wrote:
> > On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 5:40 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> > > In the name of all that's good and decent in the world, why on earth
> > > would you do that when replying to a mailing list??? They're already
> > > getting a reply. Sending them TWO identical replies is just rude.
> > 
> > Mailman is intelligent enough not to send a second copy in that case.
> > This message was sent with a CC, and you got only one copy.
> 
> Actually, no.  Mailman is not your MTA.  It only gets the email sent to
> the mailing list.  Your MTA sends the other one directly so Steve is
> correct.  He gets two copies.  If his client doesn't suppress the
> duplicate then he will be presented with both.

Mailman can (optionally) assume that addresses listed in To, CC, …
fields received an out-of-band copies, and not mail them an
additional copy [1].

Cheers,
Trevor

[1]: http://www.gnu.org/software/mailman/mailman-member/node21.html

-- 
This email may be signed or encrypted with GnuPG (http://www.gnupg.org).
For more information, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pretty_Good_Privacy

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#48327

FromChris “Kwpolska” Warrick <kwpolska@gmail.com>
Date2013-06-15 19:25 +0200
Message-ID<mailman.3391.1371317151.3114.python-list@python.org>
In reply to#48312
On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 7:07 PM, D'Arcy J.M. Cain <darcy@druid.net> wrote:
> On Sat, 15 Jun 2013 18:41:41 +0200
> Chris “Kwpolska” Warrick <kwpolska@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 5:40 PM, Steven D'Aprano
>> <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> wrote:
>> > In the name of all that's good and decent in the world, why on earth
>> > would you do that when replying to a mailing list??? They're already
>> > getting a reply. Sending them TWO identical replies is just rude.
>>
>> Mailman is intelligent enough not to send a second copy in that case.
>> This message was sent with a CC, and you got only one copy.
>
> Actually, no.  Mailman is not your MTA.  It only gets the email sent to
> the mailing list.  Your MTA sends the other one directly so Steve is
> correct.  He gets two copies.  If his client doesn't suppress the
> duplicate then he will be presented with both.

The source code seems to think otherwise:

http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~mailman-coders/mailman/3.0/view/head:/src/mailman/handlers/avoid_duplicates.py

On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 7:12 PM, Steven D'Aprano
<steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> wrote:
> Wrong. I got two copies. One via comp.lang.python, and one direct to me.

You are subscribed through Usenet and not
<http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list>, in which case
the above doesn’t apply, because Mailman throws the mail to Usenet and
not you personally.

--
Kwpolska <http://kwpolska.tk> | GPG KEY: 5EAAEA16
stop html mail                | always bottom-post
http://asciiribbon.org        | http://caliburn.nl/topposting.html

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#48335

FromSteven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info>
Date2013-06-15 17:47 +0000
Message-ID<51bca8a2$0$29997$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
In reply to#48327
On Sat, 15 Jun 2013 19:25:21 +0200, Chris “Kwpolska” Warrick wrote:

> On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 7:07 PM, D'Arcy J.M. Cain <darcy@druid.net>
> wrote:
>> On Sat, 15 Jun 2013 18:41:41 +0200
>> Chris “Kwpolska” Warrick <kwpolska@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 5:40 PM, Steven D'Aprano
>>> <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> wrote:
>>> > In the name of all that's good and decent in the world, why on earth
>>> > would you do that when replying to a mailing list??? They're already
>>> > getting a reply. Sending them TWO identical replies is just rude.
>>>
>>> Mailman is intelligent enough not to send a second copy in that case.
>>> This message was sent with a CC, and you got only one copy.
>>
>> Actually, no.  Mailman is not your MTA.  It only gets the email sent to
>> the mailing list.  Your MTA sends the other one directly so Steve is
>> correct.  He gets two copies.  If his client doesn't suppress the
>> duplicate then he will be presented with both.
> 
> The source code seems to think otherwise:

Mailman is not the only mailing list software in the world, and the 
feature you are referring to is optional.


> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~mailman-coders/mailman/3.0/view/head:/src/
mailman/handlers/avoid_duplicates.py
> 
> On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 7:12 PM, Steven D'Aprano
> <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> wrote:
>> Wrong. I got two copies. One via comp.lang.python, and one direct to
>> me.
> 
> You are subscribed through Usenet and not
> <http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list>, in which case the
> above doesn’t apply, because Mailman throws the mail to Usenet and not
> you personally.

I still get two copies if you CC me. That's still unnecessary and rude. 
If I wanted a copy emailed to me, I'd subscribe via email rather than via 
news. Whether you agree or not, I'd appreciate if you respect my wishes 
rather than try to wiggle out of it on a technicality.



-- 
Steven

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#48350

FromNick the Gr33k <support@superhost.gr>
Date2013-06-15 21:59 +0300
Message-ID<kpidio$3kp$1@news.ntua.gr>
In reply to#48335
On 15/6/2013 8:47 μμ, Steven D'Aprano wrote:

> I still get two copies if you CC me. That's still unnecessary and rude.
> If I wanted a copy emailed to me, I'd subscribe via email rather than via
> news. Whether you agree or not, I'd appreciate if you respect my wishes
> rather than try to wiggle out of it on a technicality.

I'am also getting 2 notifications two of any response in TB

One in the news section and one by mail.
Please do not CC.

If i wanted mail notification i would subscribed via email.


-- 
What is now proved was at first only imagined!

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#48384

FromChris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com>
Date2013-06-16 09:09 +1000
Message-ID<mailman.3418.1371337787.3114.python-list@python.org>
In reply to#48335
On Sun, Jun 16, 2013 at 3:47 AM, Steven D'Aprano
<steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> wrote:
> On Sat, 15 Jun 2013 19:25:21 +0200, Chris “Kwpolska” Warrick wrote:
>> The source code seems to think otherwise:
>
> Mailman is not the only mailing list software in the world, and the
> feature you are referring to is optional.
>
>> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~mailman-coders/mailman/3.0/view/head:/src/
> mailman/handlers/avoid_duplicates.py

Mailman is the software that runs python-list@python.org, so this *is*
applicable to everyone who reads the mailing list (including myself).
The fact that there's other mailing list software isn't significant;
the fact that there's comp.lang.python, though, is. But I think people
have realized that now.

ChrisA

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#48390

FromSteven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info>
Date2013-06-16 00:51 +0000
Message-ID<51bd0bf8$0$29966$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
In reply to#48384
On Sun, 16 Jun 2013 09:09:37 +1000, Chris Angelico wrote:

> On Sun, Jun 16, 2013 at 3:47 AM, Steven D'Aprano
> <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> wrote:
>> On Sat, 15 Jun 2013 19:25:21 +0200, Chris “Kwpolska” Warrick wrote:
>>> The source code seems to think otherwise:
>>
>> Mailman is not the only mailing list software in the world, and the
>> feature you are referring to is optional.
>>
>>> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~mailman-coders/mailman/3.0/view/head:/
src/
>> mailman/handlers/avoid_duplicates.py
> 
> Mailman is the software that runs python-list@python.org, so this *is*
> applicable to everyone who reads the mailing list (including myself).
> The fact that there's other mailing list software isn't significant;

I'm not making an argument about CCing the sender on specifically this 
list, I'm making a general observations about list etiquette in general.



-- 
Steven

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#48398 — CC etiquette for mailing lists (was: Don't feed the troll...)

From"W. Trevor King" <wking@tremily.us>
Date2013-06-15 21:29 -0400
SubjectCC etiquette for mailing lists (was: Don't feed the troll...)
Message-ID<mailman.3422.1371346160.3114.python-list@python.org>
In reply to#48390

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On Sun, Jun 16, 2013 at 12:51:04AM +0000, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> On Sun, 16 Jun 2013 09:09:37 +1000, Chris Angelico wrote:
> > Mailman is the software that runs python-list@python.org, so this
> > *is* applicable to everyone who reads the mailing list (including
> > myself).  The fact that there's other mailing list software isn't
> > significant;
> 
> I'm not making an argument about CCing the sender on specifically
> this list, I'm making a general observations about list etiquette in
> general.

For some lists [1], the convention *is* to CC interested parties
(which presumably includes the person who's message you are replying
to).  In the case of Mailman-hosted lists, it would seem to be more
considerate to CC folks (since they can opt-out via Mailman), while
folks who only follow the list via occasionally reading Gmane [2] will
probably appreciate the direct ping.  I'm not saying that this should
be the convention for python-list@, I'm just saying that it's not
immediately obvious what the conventions are for a particular list [3],
and there are valid arguments going both ways.

What seems more obvious (to me), is that it's polite to adjust the
subject line if your response if far enough off-topic that the
original subject no longer applies ;).

Cheers,
Trevor

[1]: http://git.kernel.org/cgit/git/git.git/tree/MaintNotes?h=todo#n10
[2]: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.comp.python.general
[3]: Unless you tell new subscribers what the conventions are.  For
     example, the git@ list emails [1] to new list subscribers.

-- 
This email may be signed or encrypted with GnuPG (http://www.gnupg.org).
For more information, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pretty_Good_Privacy

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#48523

From"D'Arcy J.M. Cain" <darcy@druid.net>
Date2013-06-15 13:04 -0400
Message-ID<mailman.3482.1371482450.3114.python-list@python.org>
In reply to#48312
On 15 Jun 2013 15:40:35 GMT
Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> wrote:
> On Sat, 15 Jun 2013 07:58:27 -0400, D'Arcy J.M. Cain wrote:
> > I suggested including the poster that you are replying to.
> 
> In the name of all that's good and decent in the world, why on earth 
> would you do that when replying to a mailing list??? They're already 
> getting a reply. Sending them TWO identical replies is just rude.

You may disagree with my reasoning but I have presented it a few times.

By the way, I did reply just to the list this time as you obviously
disagree but I may forget in the future.

-- 
D'Arcy J.M. Cain <darcy@druid.net>         |  Democracy is three wolves
http://www.druid.net/darcy/                |  and a sheep voting on
+1 416 788 2246     (DoD#0082)    (eNTP)   |  what's for dinner.
IM: darcy@Vex.Net, VOIP: sip:darcy@Vex.Net

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