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Automation

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  Automation Renato Barbosa Pim Pereira <renato.barbosa.pim.pereira@gmail.com> - 2013-11-03 14:19 -0200
    Re: Automation Denis McMahon <denismfmcmahon@gmail.com> - 2013-11-03 23:32 +0000
      Re: Automation Denis McMahon <denismfmcmahon@gmail.com> - 2013-11-04 11:39 +0000
      Re: Automation Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-11-13 20:18 -0800
    Re: Automation rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-11-03 20:25 -0800
    Re: Automation renato.barbosa.pim.pereira@gmail.com - 2013-11-13 19:56 -0800
      Re: Automation Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-11-14 17:10 +0000
        Re: Automation Alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2013-11-14 20:03 +0000
          Re: Automation Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-11-15 10:04 +1100
          Re: Automation Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-11-15 06:25 +0000
            Re: Automation Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2013-11-15 16:53 +0000
              Re: Automation Alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2013-11-15 20:12 +0000
                Re: Automation Alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2013-11-15 20:45 +0000
                  Re: Automation Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-11-19 01:53 -0700
                    Re: Automation Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-11-20 16:12 +0000
                  Re: Automation Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-11-19 20:26 +1100
                  Re: Automation Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-11-19 02:37 -0700
                  Re: Automation Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-11-19 09:44 +0000
                  Re: Automation Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-11-19 09:54 +0000
                  Re: Automation Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-11-19 21:48 +1100
                    Re: Automation Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-11-20 16:14 +0000
                      Re: Automation Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-11-21 03:19 +1100
                      Re: Automation Tim Golden <mail@timgolden.me.uk> - 2013-11-20 16:28 +0000
                      Re: Automation Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-11-21 03:33 +1100
                      Re: Automation Walter Hurry <walterhurry@lavabit.com> - 2013-11-20 16:59 +0000
                        Re: Automation Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-11-20 21:34 +0000
                    Re: Automation Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2013-11-20 17:58 -0500
                      Off-topic: Aussie place names [was Re: Automation] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-11-21 00:58 +0000
                        Re: Off-topic: Aussie place names [was Re: Automation] Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2013-11-20 22:22 -0500
                        Re: Off-topic: Aussie place names [was Re: Automation] Tim Delaney <timothy.c.delaney@gmail.com> - 2013-11-21 12:18 +1100
                  Re: Automation Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-11-19 21:50 +1100
                  Re: Automation Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-11-19 13:50 +0000
                  Re: Automation Tim Golden <mail@timgolden.me.uk> - 2013-11-19 13:55 +0000
                  Re: Automation Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-11-19 14:07 +0000
                  Re: Automation Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-11-20 01:08 +1100
                Re: Automation Walter Hurry <walterhurry@lavabit.com> - 2013-11-19 11:53 +0000
                  Re: Automation Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-11-19 22:58 +1100
                    Re: Automation Alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2013-11-19 12:36 +0000
                      Re: Automation Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-11-19 23:52 +1100
                        Re: Automation Alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2013-11-19 13:00 +0000
                        Re: Automation Alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2013-11-19 12:59 +0000
                        Re: Automation Alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2013-11-19 12:59 +0000
                          Re: Automation MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2013-11-19 15:06 +0000
                          Re: Automation Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-11-20 02:11 +1100
                          Re: Automation Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-11-21 02:44 +1100
                        Re: Automation Alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2013-11-19 13:00 +0000
                      Re: Automation Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-11-21 01:52 +1100
        Re: Automation Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-11-15 06:44 +0000
          Re: Automation Paul Rudin <paul.nospam@rudin.co.uk> - 2013-11-15 07:30 +0000
            Re: Automation Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-11-15 15:02 +0000
              Re: Automation Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-11-16 02:12 +1100
                Re: Automation Alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2013-11-15 15:52 +0000
              Re: Automation Larry Hudson <orgnut@yahoo.com> - 2013-11-15 22:17 -0800
                Re: Automation William Ray Wing <wrw@mac.com> - 2013-11-16 09:18 -0500
                  Re: Automation Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-11-16 10:11 -0500
                    grammar (was Re: Automation) Paul Smith <paul@mad-scientist.net> - 2013-11-16 12:02 -0500
                    Re: grammar (was Re: Automation) Andrew Berg <robotsondrugs@gmail.com> - 2013-11-16 21:44 -0600
                    Re: grammar (was Re: Automation) MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2013-11-17 04:07 +0000
                    Re: grammar (was Re: Automation) Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-11-17 15:16 +1100
                    Re: grammar (was Re: Automation) Andrew Berg <robotsondrugs@gmail.com> - 2013-11-16 22:34 -0600
                    Re: grammar (was Re: Automation) Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2013-11-17 12:48 -0500
                    Re: grammar (was Re: Automation) Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-11-19 04:13 +0000
                Re: Automation Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2013-11-18 12:17 +0000
                  Re: Automation Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2013-11-19 19:23 +1300
                    Re: Automation Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2013-11-19 07:09 +0000
                Re: Automation Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-11-18 16:49 +0000
                  Re: Automation David Robinow <drobinow@gmail.com> - 2013-11-18 22:54 -0500
          Re: Automation Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-11-15 14:23 +0000
          Re: Automation Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2013-11-15 18:54 -0500
        Re: Automation Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-11-15 14:58 +0000
          Re: Automation xDog Walker <thudfoo@gmail.com> - 2013-11-15 13:43 -0800
          Re: Automation Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2013-11-15 19:28 -0600
          Re: Automation Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2013-11-15 21:01 -0500
          Re: Automation Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-11-16 11:42 +0000

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#59778 — Re: grammar (was Re: Automation)

On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 21:44:26 -0600, Andrew Berg <robotsondrugs@gmail.com>
declaimed the following:

>On 2013.11.16 11:02, Paul Smith wrote:
>> The one that really irks me is people using "loose" when they mean
>> "lose".  These words are not related, and they don't sound the same.
>> Plus this mistake is very common; I typically see it at least once a
>> day.
>Don't be surprised if such people pronounce them the same; a lot of such errors are caused by learning incorrect pronunciation.
>For example, people often write 'should of' because that is what they hear (and what they end up saying).

	Though that can be explained as being an attempt at phonetically
transcribing the contraction "should've"...

	"Here the shepherd's heir is collecting merino hair"
-- 
	Wulfraed                 Dennis Lee Bieber         AF6VN
    wlfraed@ix.netcom.com    HTTP://wlfraed.home.netcom.com/

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#59940 — Re: grammar (was Re: Automation)

On 16/11/2013 17:02, Paul Smith wrote:
> On Sat, 2013-11-16 at 10:11 -0500, Roy Smith wrote:
>> In article <mailman.2714.1384611545.18130.python-list@python.org>,
>>   William Ray Wing <wrw@mac.com> wrote:
>>
>>> And my personal peeve -  using it's (contraction) when its (possessive)
>>> should have been used; occasionally vice-versa.
>
>> And one of mine is when people write, "Here, here!" to signify
>> agreement.  What they really mean to write is, "Hear, hear!", meaning,
>> "Listen to what that person said".
>
> The one that really irks me is people using "loose" when they mean
> "lose".  These words are not related, and they don't sound the same.
> Plus this mistake is very common; I typically see it at least once a
> day.
>

Somebody published a link to this poem some months back, I think it's 
worth repeating http://www.i18nguy.com/chaos.html

-- 
Python is the second best programming language in the world.
But the best has yet to be invented.  Christian Tismer

Mark Lawrence

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#59856

On 2013-11-16, Larry Hudson <orgnut@yahoo.com> wrote:
> However, that's just a side comment.  I wanted to mention my
> personal peeve...
>
> I notice it's surprisingly common for people who are native
> English-speakers to use 'to' in place of 'too' (to little, to
> late.), "your" in place of "you're" (Your an idiot!) and
> 'there' in place of 'their' (a foot in there mouth.)  There are
> similar mis-usages, of course, but those three seem to be the
> most common.
>
> Now, I'm a 76-year-old curmudgeon and maybe overly sensitive,
> but I felt a need to vent a bit.

The cases where written and spoken English diverge are hotbets of
word usage problems. I'm glad the issue doesn't exist for
programming languages, which thankfully don't really have a
colloquial or spoken version.

Written English probably changes much slower than spoken English,
and we have the curmudgeon's to thank.

-- 
Neil Cerutti

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#59950

Neil Cerutti wrote:
> Written English probably changes much slower than spoken English,
> and we have the curmudgeon's to thank.

The curmudgeon's what? :-)

-- 
Greg

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#59957

On Tue, 19 Nov 2013 19:23:11 +1300, Gregory Ewing wrote:

> Neil Cerutti wrote:
>> Written English probably changes much slower than spoken English, and
>> we have the curmudgeon's to thank.
> 
> The curmudgeon's what? :-)

The curmudgeon's cudgel of course.

*wack* "Will you speak proper now or wot?"


-- 
Steven

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#59887

On 2013-11-16, Larry Hudson <orgnut@yahoo.com> wrote:

>> And yes, people can _easily_ tell the difference between errors
>> caused by being lazy/sloppy and errors caused by writing in a second
>> language.
>>
> Not to start another flame-war (I hope), but our Greek friend is a
> good example of that.  It's not surprising he has so much trouble
> with his code.
>
> However, that's just a side comment.  I wanted to mention my personal
> peeve...
>
> I notice it's surprisingly common for people who are native
> English-speakers to use 'to' in place of 'too' (to little, to late.),
> "your" in place of "you're" (Your an idiot!) and 'there' in place of
> 'their' (a foot in there mouth.) There are similar mis-usages, of
> course, but those three seem to be the most common.

And I'm convinced that the more proficient the typist, the more often
one makes those sorts of mistakes when composing text.  If you've got
to hunt and peck on the keyboard, then you've got to actually think
about how each word is spelled, and you realize which one you're
actually typing.  If you're a proficient touch typist (and are typing
something on-the-fly rather than transcribing), I think the "sound" of
the word is more directly connected to the fingers without benefit of
grammatical conext invervening to choose the correct homonym.

I don't make those mistakes typing on a phone (where I have to
actually think about the act of typing), but I do make them with a
regular keyboard, where I don't have to think about mechanics of
typing the words.

OTOH, maybe that's just me...

-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! I am having FUN...
                                  at               I wonder if it's NET FUN or
                              gmail.com            GROSS FUN?

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#59938

On Mon, Nov 18, 2013 at 11:49 AM, Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> ...
> I don't make those mistakes typing on a phone (where I have to
> actually think about the act of typing), but I do make them with a
> regular keyboard, where I don't have to think about mechanics of
> typing the words.
>
> OTOH, maybe that's just me...
It's me too. I certainly know the difference between 'there' and
'their', etc. but that fact is not always reflected in my typing.

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#59522

On 15/11/2013 06:44, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> On Thu, 14 Nov 2013 17:10:02 +0000, Mark Lawrence wrote:
>
>> On 14/11/2013 03:56, renato.barbosa.pim.pereira@gmail.com wrote:
>>> I apologize again for my bad english and any inconvenience that I have
>>> generated.
>>>
>>>
>> I do wish that people would stop apologising for poor English, it's an
>> extremely difficult language.  IIRC there are eight different ways of
>> pronouncing the vowel combination au.  Whatever happened to "There
>> should be one-- and preferably only one --obvious way to do it."? :)
>
> Words like "sorry", "pardon me", etc. are the social grease to smooth out
> interactions between people. Instead, I read such apologies as a flag
> that we ought to make allowances for any grammatical or spelling errors
> they may make, rather than to interpret them as signs of laziness or
> stupidity.
>
> I'm inclined to forgive nearly any language error from somebody who is
> trying their best to communicate, while people who merely cannot be
> bothered to use language which is at least an approximation to
> grammatically correct, syntactically valid, correctly-spelled sentences
> inspire similar apathy in me. If they can't be bothered to write as well
> as they are capable of, I can't be bothered to answer their questions.
>
> A few minor errors is one thing, but when you see people whose posts are
> full of error after error and an apparent inability to get English syntax
> right, you have to wonder how on earth they expect to be a programmer?
> Compilers are even less forgiving of errors than is my wife, and she once
> kicked a man to death for using a colon where a semi-colon was required.
> (Only joking. He didn't actually die.)

Semi-colons or more accurately the lack of them, used to be the bain of 
my life.  Good old CORAL 66 had its BEGIN, END and COMMENT (maybe in 
single quotes?), but there was no ENDCOMMENT, no guesses how it was 
spelt.  Could have retired years ago...

>
> This doesn't apply to people who gave some sort of sign that they're
> doing the best that they can, whether it is due to inexperience,
> dyslexia, being Foreign *wink*, or even broken keyboard. ("Nw kyboard is
> on ordr, pls xcus my lack of lttr aftr D and b4 F.")

I had another wonderful day yesterday hacking foreigners to bits and 
burning them, great fun.  Is the last part above in parentheses meant to 
be related to a broken keyboard or is it simply modern textspeak?

>
> But it does amuse me when non-native English speakers apologise, then
> write a post which is better written, more clear, and far more articulate
> than the native English speakers :-)
>

I wish you'd written "clearer" rather than "more clear", this would have 
shown that your English is good like what mine is.

-- 
Python is the second best programming language in the world.
But the best has yet to be invented.  Christian Tismer

Mark Lawrence

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#59575

On 15 Nov 2013 06:44:22 GMT, Steven D'Aprano
<steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> declaimed the following:

>dyslexia, being Foreign *wink*, or even broken keyboard. ("Nw kyboard is 
>on ordr, pls xcus my lack of lttr aftr D and b4 F.")
>

	On a windowing system, even that excuse may not suffice.

	Find some file with the bad character, highlight it, copy to
clip-board. Now when you need to enter the character, you just paste it
into the document (using the keyboard shortcut, not a mouse context menu)
-- 
	Wulfraed                 Dennis Lee Bieber         AF6VN
    wlfraed@ix.netcom.com    HTTP://wlfraed.home.netcom.com/

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#59529

On 2013-11-14, Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> On 14/11/2013 03:56, renato.barbosa.pim.pereira@gmail.com wrote:
>> I apologize again for my bad english and any inconvenience that I have generated.
>
> I do wish that people would stop apologising for poor English, it's an 
> extremely difficult language.

It's certainly not necessary from anybody for whom English is not a
first language -- and that's usually pretty easy to guess based on
domains and personal names.

There are people (not many in this group) who grew up speaking English
and really ought to apologize for their writing -- but they never do.

So a good rule of thumb is:

If you think maybe you need to apologize for your English, you don't

If it never occurred to you that you need to apologize, you might. 

;)

-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! Let's all show human
                                  at               CONCERN for REVERAND MOON's
                              gmail.com            legal difficulties!!

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#59563

On Friday 2013 November 15 06:58, Grant Edwards wrote:
> There are people (not many in this group) who grew up speaking English
> and really ought to apologize for their writing -- but they never do.

Can you supply an example of the form such an apology might take?

-- 
Yonder nor sorghum stenches shut ladle gulls stopper torque wet 
strainers.

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#59580

On 2013-11-15 13:43, xDog Walker wrote:
> On Friday 2013 November 15 06:58, Grant Edwards wrote:
> > There are people (not many in this group) who grew up speaking
> > English and really ought to apologize for their writing -- but
> > they never do.  
> 
> Can you supply an example of the form such an apology might take?

"I'm sorry that, despite growing up steeped in the language, I can't
manage to put together two coherent thoughts or practically apply any
of the spelling/grammar/punctuation/capitalization lessons provided
at no cost to me throughout 12+ years of academic instruction."

Harumph.  Non-native speakers get my extensive compassion--English
really is a nutso language, and any attempt to use it for
communicating should be lauded in the face of that challenge.
However, native speakers have a higher bar, IHMO.

-tkc

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#59581

On Fri, 15 Nov 2013 19:28:45 -0600, Tim Chase
<python.list@tim.thechases.com> declaimed the following:

>On 2013-11-15 13:43, xDog Walker wrote:
>> On Friday 2013 November 15 06:58, Grant Edwards wrote:
>> > There are people (not many in this group) who grew up speaking
>> > English and really ought to apologize for their writing -- but
>> > they never do.  
>> 
>> Can you supply an example of the form such an apology might take?
>
>"I'm sorry that, despite growing up steeped in the language, I can't
>manage to put together two coherent thoughts or practically apply any
>of the spelling/grammar/punctuation/capitalization lessons provided
>at no cost to me throughout 12+ years of academic instruction."
>
>Harumph.  Non-native speakers get my extensive compassion--English
>really is a nutso language, and any attempt to use it for
>communicating should be lauded in the face of that challenge.
>However, native speakers have a higher bar, IHMO.
>

	Given that "English" contains remnants of latin (from the Roman
occupation), saxons (a germanic tribe), angles (another germanic tribe),
danish (after the joining of the anglo-saxon), other vikings (norse), then
the norman invasion (which was a mix of norse and old french), etc. -- the
overlapping of orthographic elements is no surprise.

	Oh, and add in the Great Vowel Shift
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Vowel_Shift

	At least we don't (nominally) have the situation of Mandarin vs
Cantonese (in which the spoken languages are quite different, but the
written pictographs are common, as I recall) [No... Instead we get the
different occidental phonemes for Chinese [and nearby]: Peking vs Beijing;
[nearby] Bombay vs Mumbai...]

>-tkc
>
-- 
	Wulfraed                 Dennis Lee Bieber         AF6VN
    wlfraed@ix.netcom.com    HTTP://wlfraed.home.netcom.com/

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#59600

On 16/11/2013 02:01, Dennis Lee Bieber wrote:
>
> 	Given that "English" contains remnants of latin (from the Roman
> occupation), saxons (a germanic tribe), angles (another germanic tribe),
> danish (after the joining of the anglo-saxon), other vikings (norse), then
> the norman invasion (which was a mix of norse and old french), etc. -- the
> overlapping of orthographic elements is no surprise.
>

I'm trying to work out what the(?) language should be called given the 
above list.  Sure "English" is derived from those "angles", but by the 
time you've derived all the other names and strung them all together, 
phew, what a mouthful.  It's best not to go there, yes?

Also consider how the language has changed from Chaucer, through 
Shakespear, Dickins and now J.K. Rowling.

Then there's the centre of the universe, "Breamore" is prounced 
"Bremmer" and used to be spelt "Bremmer".  Don't ask :)

-- 
Python is the second best programming language in the world.
But the best has yet to be invented.  Christian Tismer

Mark Lawrence

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