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Do you feel bad because of the Python docs?

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  Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-02-26 12:54 +0000
    Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-02-27 00:20 +1100
      Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-02-26 08:56 -0500
        Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-02-27 01:26 +1100
          Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-02-26 15:26 +0000
        Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2013-02-26 17:48 +0000
          Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-02-27 03:02 +0000
    Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Zero Piraeus <schesis@gmail.com> - 2013-02-26 10:15 -0400
    Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierreda@gmail.com> - 2013-02-26 09:15 -0500
    Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? notbob <notbob@nothome.com> - 2013-02-26 16:19 +0000
      Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Andrew Berg <bahamutzero8825@gmail.com> - 2013-02-26 10:55 -0600
        Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? notbob <notbob@nothome.com> - 2013-02-26 17:54 +0000
          Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2013-02-26 12:10 -0600
            Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? notbob <notbob@nothome.com> - 2013-02-26 18:41 +0000
      Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? nn <pruebauno@latinmail.com> - 2013-02-26 11:00 -0800
        Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? emile <emile@fenx.com> - 2013-02-26 16:36 -0800
    Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? "Adam W." <AWasilenko@gmail.com> - 2013-02-26 08:38 -0800
      Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierreda@gmail.com> - 2013-02-26 13:52 -0500
      Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2013-02-26 20:48 -0500
        Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-02-26 19:13 -0800
          Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2013-02-27 15:25 -0800
            Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-02-27 18:05 -0800
              Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-02-27 21:21 -0500
              Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-02-28 13:44 +1100
                Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-02-27 19:43 -0800
                  Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? llanitedave <llanitedave@veawb.coop> - 2013-02-27 20:04 -0800
                  Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2013-02-27 20:21 -0800
              Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2013-02-27 20:18 -0800
                Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-02-27 20:53 -0800
                  Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2013-02-27 21:57 -0800
                    Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-02-28 17:31 +1100
                    Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-02-28 10:28 -0800
                      Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-03-01 07:41 +1100
                      Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2013-02-28 16:05 -0800
                        Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Jake Angulo <jake.angulo@gmail.com> - 2013-03-04 10:47 +1100
            Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Bob Hanson <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-03-05 17:43 -0800
              Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-03-06 03:12 +0000
                Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Bob Hanson <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-03-08 19:10 -0800
            Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Bob Hanson <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-03-05 17:50 -0800
            Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Bob Hanson <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-03-05 17:51 -0800
              Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-03-06 03:38 +0000
                Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Bob Hanson <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-03-08 19:31 -0800
                  Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-03-09 14:45 +1100
              Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? rh <richard_hubbe11@lavabit.com> - 2013-03-06 11:48 -0800
              Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2013-03-06 18:50 -0500
                Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-03-06 16:47 -0800
                  Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2013-03-06 17:06 -0800
                    Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Chris Kaynor <ckaynor@zindagigames.com> - 2013-03-06 17:28 -0800
                    Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-03-06 17:31 -0800
                      Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2013-03-06 18:28 -0800
                        Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-03-06 18:57 -0800
                          Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2013-03-06 19:12 -0800
                            Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-03-06 19:48 -0800
                      Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-03-07 13:16 +1100
                    Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? "Michael Ross" <gmx@ross.cx> - 2013-03-07 03:04 +0100
                  Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2013-03-06 20:52 -0500
                    Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-03-06 18:41 -0800
                Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Bob Hanson <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-03-08 20:12 -0800
                  Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2013-03-09 01:22 -0500
          Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-02-27 20:26 -0500
    Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2013-02-26 13:43 -0500
      Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? rurpy@yahoo.com - 2013-02-27 17:17 -0800
        Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-02-28 01:39 +0000
        Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2013-02-27 21:27 -0500
    Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Mitya Sirenef <msirenef@lightbird.net> - 2013-02-26 13:58 -0500
    Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? rh <richard_hubbe11@lavabit.com> - 2013-02-26 12:18 -0800
    Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Rotwang <sg552@hotmail.co.uk> - 2013-02-26 21:26 +0000
      Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Jason Swails <jason.swails@gmail.com> - 2013-02-26 17:17 -0500
        Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-02-26 17:22 -0800
        Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-02-26 17:22 -0800
    Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-02-26 17:15 -0800
    Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-02-27 12:31 +1100
    Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2013-02-26 21:00 -0500
    Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? rh <richard_hubbe11@lavabit.com> - 2013-02-26 18:06 -0800
    Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Mitya Sirenef <msirenef@lightbird.net> - 2013-02-26 22:09 -0500
    Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Mitya Sirenef <msirenef@lightbird.net> - 2013-02-26 23:45 -0500
    Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-02-27 09:47 +0000
    Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Antoine Pitrou <solipsis@pitrou.net> - 2013-02-27 13:17 +0000
    Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Antoine Pitrou <solipsis@pitrou.net> - 2013-02-27 13:22 +0000
      Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-02-27 14:59 -0800
    Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Mitya Sirenef <msirenef@lightbird.net> - 2013-02-27 17:43 -0500
    Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? rurpy@yahoo.com - 2013-02-27 15:20 -0800
      Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-02-28 01:05 +0000
        Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? rurpy@yahoo.com - 2013-02-27 21:36 -0800
    Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? llanitedave <llanitedave@veawb.coop> - 2013-02-27 18:26 -0800
    Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Jason Friedman <jsf80238@gmail.com> - 2013-02-27 21:59 -0700
    Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-02-28 16:21 +1100
    Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? << No! Tony the Tiger <tony@tiger.invalid> - 2013-03-03 16:28 -0600
    Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? rh <richard_hubbe11@lavabit.com> - 2013-03-04 08:59 -0800

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#40081

On Feb 27, 1:13 pm, Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohn...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Terry (with all due respect), do you /really/ expect that people
> have the time to open an issue on the bug tracker?

If someone can write a paragraph on their blog or this list
complaining about a problem, then yes, they have the time to open an
issue on the bug tracker.

This is the price of using open source software: you give back. You
don't get to say "I don't have the time for this, *someone else* fix
it". Who do you expect to give up *their* time to solve *your* issues?

Ranting on public forums is nothing but posturing at best, and at
worst an attempt to blackmail-by-shame people into doing something for
you. Same goes for calls for "the community" to "fix" things.

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#40093

On Wednesday, February 27, 2013 5:25:25 PM UTC-6, alex23 wrote:
> Ranting on public forums is nothing but posturing at best, and at
> worst an attempt to blackmail-by-shame people into doing something for
> you. Same goes for calls for "the community" to "fix" things.

What you call ranting is most times people venting frustrations BECAUSE they want to help, but nobody is allowing them to be a contributing member of the community.

When someone tries to offer help, in the form of constructive criticism, and then somebody snaps at them, they then loose the will to help. I myself would love to contribute my "quite awesome" re-write of the Tkinter GUI library, but due to the friction i've encountered on this list, i am resigned to keep it to myself (at least for the time being). Which is sad because python (and python programmers) could greatly benefit from a polished Tkinter. 

Alex i can assure you, there DOES exist a very harsh attitude to outside opinions within this community. Case in point: Why should ANYBODY need to voice Python problems on various blogs around the web? I think it would be in the interest of the Python community to have these opinions voiced here, on the list, for all to discuss. 

This is why i will AGAIN mention my PyWarts list (Hypothetical at this point). We need an official place for the many problems of Python to be discussed in a fair and open manner. A place that will be open to noobs and frequented by pythonisitas (including the BDFL himself!)

============================================================
 Path of a Python Issue
============================================================
1. All perceived problems with python get voiced on the PyWarts list
2. After considerable discussion, and if we can widdle the problem down to a tangible bug, then a bug gets opened on the tracker.
3. Hopefully the bug will be resolved and closed ASAP.

This is a linear path of inclusion that will prompt people to participate. You and i both know we need more people working at the tracker, and there are many who want to participate, but they will never participate at the "bug tracker level" when they get nothing but friction at the "python-list level". We all need to tone down the hostility and lower the bar for those who wish to help. Neither this community nor this language can survive without a steady adoption of new members.

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#40094

In article <287852cd-09ee-4768-9591-c1f31fe0489b@googlegroups.com>,
 Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> wrote:

> When someone tries to offer help, in the form of constructive criticism, and 
> then somebody snaps at them, they then loose the will to help. I myself would 
> love to contribute my "quite awesome" re-write of the Tkinter GUI library, 
> but due to the friction i've encountered on this list, i am resigned to keep 
> it to myself (at least for the time being). Which is sad because python (and 
> python programmers) could greatly benefit from a polished Tkinter.

So, put it on github (or whatever), and announce its availability.  If 
the Tkinter user community finds it valuable, they'll use it.  There's 
plenty of third party packages that are better than what's packaged with 
the core system (requests vs urllib, for example).

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#40099

On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 1:05 PM, Rick Johnson
<rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> wrote:
> This is why i will AGAIN mention my PyWarts list (Hypothetical at this point). We need an official place for the many problems of Python to be discussed in a fair and open manner. A place that will be open to noobs and frequented by pythonisitas (including the BDFL himself!)
>
> ============================================================
>  Path of a Python Issue
> ============================================================
> 1. All perceived problems with python get voiced on the PyWarts list
> 2. After considerable discussion, and if we can widdle the problem down to a tangible bug, then a bug gets opened on the tracker.
> 3. Hopefully the bug will be resolved and closed ASAP.

Go start the list. When you get something that's worth posting, go
post it on the tracker. And if you post something with an actual
patch, then maybe it'll be accepted.

Why are you demanding that busy people attend to you? You are
effectively demanding that Guido, who has a full-time job as well as
being head of a large project, should - without compensation - read
and actively respond to every one of your whiny posts. That is simply
not going to happen unless he *wants to*. It's up to you to make it
worth his while, or at least interesting. That's how things work.

ChrisA

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#40102

On Wednesday, February 27, 2013 8:44:08 PM UTC-6, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 1:05 PM, Rick Johnson wrote:
> > This is why i will AGAIN mention my PyWarts list
> > (Hypothetical at this point). We need an official place
> > for the many problems of Python to be discussed in a
> > fair and open manner. A place that will be open to noobs
> > and frequented by pythonisitas (including the BDFL
> > himself!)
> > [...]
> > 
> Go start the list. 

But with that statement you keep missing the point. We DON'T need yet another list on yet another corner of the web. What we DO need is a list that is local to the community. Are you asking me to start a pywarts usenet list? Does the community want it to be titled "PyWarts"? How about showing me that you are really interested by offering some name ideas. I am quite partial to PyWarts because i think the name is "catchy", but i am open to outside ideas, have at it!

> When you get something that's worth posting, go
> post it on the tracker. And if you post something with an actual
> patch, then maybe it'll be accepted.

Yes, that's step two. First step: discussion to find the definition of the bug, second step: open a bug report. Having people voicing opinions on the tracker is diverting the time and energy of the good people who volunteer there. We need to move the discussion somewhere else (PyWarts)

> Why are you demanding that busy people attend to you? You are
> effectively demanding that Guido, who has a full-time job as well as
> being head of a large project, should - without compensation - read
> and actively respond to every one of your whiny posts. 

I understand the responsibilities that Guido is tasked, and i do not expect him to answer frivolous questions on the list. What i DO expect is that he at minimum publicly support the following:
    
1. Guido needs to wield his power by announcing (politely) that the community should be more open to outside opinions and methods of solving problems. This is the most important step and the start of a recovery process.

2. Guido should also announce that in order to achieve this goal, we need a very public and very intuitive path of solving Python issues. This path starts at a list for sharing Python related greivances (call it PyWarts if you like) , which HOPEFULLY he will at least make an attempt to visit from time to time. This list (and this path) needs to be mentioned quite prominately on the python.org website (which itself needs quite a bit of polishing!)

GvR has not even shown his face on python-list list for around a decade or more. He only posts at "py-ideas" (that i know of). This is why the community is in such disarray. It is paramount that he make some public appearance and speak of his dreams for the future. 

 "How can GvR go and declare himself a BDFL and then sail off into the sunset to his little island paridise of "py-ideas" without ever giving validity to his people and his creation? If does not want to lead anymore, fine! Say so. If he does, fine! Make an announcment!"

> That is simply
> not going to happen unless he *wants to*. It's up to you to make it
> worth his while, or at least interesting. That's how things work.

All i ask is for Guido to lead. That's all.

He is the only person in this whole damn community who has the influence to speak and have people listen. If he will publicly endorse some "good will" within the community, and admit that we desperately need a streamed-lined and linear path for solving python's many problems, i can guarantee that we will see a great influx of really smart people. I myself will commit every second i can to help move along the evolution. 

I also wish he would speak publicly about the stale nature of Tkinter and IDLE. Allowing these two modules to become so outdated is really tarnishing the image of Python's stdlib. Whether you think the modules should be in the stdlib or not, is *not* the question. They are there, so we must try to improve them. 

Python is a great language, but we need diverse ideas to keep the cogs of evolution turning. Guido can start the ball rolling 10 minutes from now, all it will take is for him to make a public announcement...

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#40103

On Wednesday, February 27, 2013 7:43:58 PM UTC-8, Rick Johnson wrote:
> 
> Python is a great language, but we need diverse ideas to keep the cogs of evolution turning. Guido can start the ball rolling 10 minutes from now, all it will take is for him to make a public announcement...

Geez, dude, let the man get some sleep!

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#40105

On Feb 28, 1:43 pm, Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohn...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Guido can start the ball rolling 10 minutes from now, all it will
> take is for him to make a public announcement...

Can you please stop this *constant* insistence that Guido talk to
you / do what you think is important? It's pointless posturing and
empty rhetoric and we've had to put up with it for *years* now. The
man has a job and at least one side project that is clearly of far
more interest & importance to him than jumping through hoops for one
incessant whiner.

Stop being so damn arrogant and insulting.

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#40104

On Feb 28, 12:05 pm, Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohn...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> On Wednesday, February 27, 2013 5:25:25 PM UTC-6, alex23 wrote:
> > Ranting on public forums is nothing but posturing at best, and at
> > worst an attempt to blackmail-by-shame people into doing something for
> > you. Same goes for calls for "the community" to "fix" things.
>
> What you call ranting is most times people venting frustrations
> BECAUSE they want to help, but nobody is allowing them to be a
> contributing member of the community.

You claim that no one has time to write a bug report. I point out that
if they can spend the time ranting about the bug, then they have the
time. You then proceed to try and reframe the discussion to something
else entirely.

Venting frustrations isn't contributing. If someone is confused about
how to contribute, they could just *ask*, as people _regularly_ do
here, and are always given reasonable direction how to do so.

> When someone tries to offer help, in the form of constructive criticism, and then somebody snaps at them, they then loose the will to help. I myself would love to contribute my "quite awesome" re-write of the Tkinter GUI library, but due to the friction i've encountered on this list, i am resigned to keep it to myself (at least for the time being). Which is sad because python (and python programmers) could greatly benefit from a polished Tkinter.

Insisting your personal project is shoved into the standard library
isn't helping. Write a PEP. Put the code up on PyPI. There's a well-
established path for progressing code from "look what I done make!"
into something that is considered part of Python.

> Alex i can assure you, there DOES exist a very harsh attitude to outside opinions within this community.

Don't extend this list's reaction to you and your particular blend of
idiocy to the general response to opinions.

> Case in point: Why should ANYBODY need to voice Python problems on various blogs around the web?

The two main reasons seem to be: vanity, and an unwillingness to
listen to criticism.

> This is why i will AGAIN mention my PyWarts list (Hypothetical at this point).

"Hypothetical" sums up pretty much all of your supposed contributions
to date.

> We need an official place for the many problems of Python to be discussed in a fair and open manner. A place that will be open to noobs and frequented by pythonisitas (including the BDFL himself!)

Starting a new forum just fragments the discussion even further.

> ============================================================
>  Path of a Python Issue
> ============================================================
> 1. All perceived problems with python get voiced on the PyWarts list
> 2. After considerable discussion, and if we can widdle the problem down to a tangible bug, then a bug gets opened on the tracker.
> 3. Hopefully the bug will be resolved and closed ASAP.

Ah, so it's your way or no way, yet again.

THERE ALREADY EXISTS A PATH FOR DEALING WITH ISSUES.

> This is a linear path of inclusion that will prompt people to participate.

Right, until someone doesn't get the response they want and they
agitate for this to happen on Stackoverflow, or IRC, or their brand
new forum they've set up. You're not the first person to want to
impose your own brand of tyranny on the process.

> You and i both know we need more people working at the tracker

No one is going to be "working at the tracker", because no one is
*paid* to do such "work". People can participate by contributing, or
they can choose not to. The latter should also STFU if they're not
willing to contribute, but this seems to be a position you're unable
or unwilling to understand.

> Neither this community nor this language can survive without a steady adoption of new members.

The current process is not doing anything like the damage to the
uptake of Python that you constantly claim it is, but you do love your
hyperbole.

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#40106

On Wednesday, February 27, 2013 10:18:46 PM UTC-6, alex23 wrote:
> You claim that no one has time to write a bug report. I point out that
> if they can spend the time ranting about the bug, then they have the
> time. 

And i would like to point out that all your nay-saying and condemnations are taking some valuable time also. Time that could be better spent finding new ways for our "new friends" to contribute. 

* Do you care about the evolution of Python or just give it lip service?
* Do you have an ideas for the name of a Python grievance list?
* What are your opinions of the state of both Tkinter and IDLE? Are you proud of these modules/packages? 
* Why do you support Guido's continued reign of silence?
* But most importantly, do you not want the community/language to evolve or remain static?

What is your opinion on anything "Python related" Alex? All i've heard from you is negativity, condemnation, and insults -- with exception of your statements about the GG's interface the other day, all your other posts have been nothing but lectures to myself and other concerned Python uses.  

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#40111

On Feb 28, 2:53 pm, Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohn...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wednesday, February 27, 2013 10:18:46 PM UTC-6, alex23 wrote:
> > You claim that no one has time to write a bug report. I point out that
> > if they can spend the time ranting about the bug, then they have the
> > time.
>
> And i would like to point out that all your nay-saying and condemnations are taking some valuable time also. Time that could be better spent finding new ways for our "new friends" to contribute.

This is a false conclusion. Why would I spend time doing this when I
don't believe it's necessary?

> * Do you care about the evolution of Python or just give it lip service?

I don't see any problems with how Python is developing now. Then
again, I am pretty busy using it to write code.

> * Do you have an ideas for the name of a Python grievance list?

http://bugs.python.org/

> * What are your opinions of the state of both Tkinter and IDLE? Are you proud of these modules/packages?

I don't use them, nor do I need to feel "pride" about any part of the
Python standard library. Either something is useful to me or not.

> * Why do you support Guido's continued reign of silence?

Why do you inject hyperbole into everything you write?

> * But most importantly, do you not want the community/language to evolve or remain static?

I already answered that above. You, on the other hand, constantly
dodge any direct questions or criticisms. Can you provide a link to
your "improved" tkinter package on PyPI? Where is your draft PEP for
its inclusion in the standard library? How is RickPython proceeding?

> What is your opinion on anything "Python related" Alex?

My biggest opinion is that you're a ridiculous little blowhard that
this "community" would be better off without. My biggest regret re
Python is that you found it more appealing than Ruby and we got
saddled with you instead.

Other than that, I use it daily to *get real work done*. What do you
do with it other than use it as a soapbox for your ego?

> All i've heard from you is negativity, condemnation, and insults -- with exception of your statements about the GG's interface the other day, all your other posts have been nothing but lectures to myself and other concerned Python uses.

And here you descend into slander. I condemn *you* because you're a
contemptible twit with delusions of grandeur. I lecture *you* because
you'e particularly slow and dim-witted. As for "other concerned Python
uses", the last few threads we've both posted in I've provided
pragmatic advice, if not explicit code samples, while you have done
your usual posturing and grandiose bulshytt. You responded to a
request for advice on learning how to handle complex projects with:

"Before you decide to start participating in outside projects may we
have a list of some of the software you've written for yourself? (With
all due respect) I very seriously doubt that someone with only a "few
months" of programming experience is ready for the real world."

And you have the audacity to claim that I'm the one lecturing other
people... Who do you think you are, the Python-participation police?

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#40113

On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 4:57 PM, alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> wrote:
> My biggest regret re Python is that [Ranting Rick] found it more
> appealing than Ruby and we got saddled with [him] instead.

Having used Ruby a little this past couple of weeks (trying to install
a Rails application), I fully understand Rick's preference for Python;
it just proves that he wants to use a language that's actually ready
to use.

In discussion with my brother about the problems I'd been having with
Ruby, he summed up the status in one pithy phrase: Critical lack of
polish. Setting up Ruby + Rails + Spree + all the other gems that
those three require, instead of being a fairly simple half-hour job,
took me over a day.

The main issue is that Ruby functions like a niche language, but is
trying to be mainstream. Installing a gem requires that code be
compiled, and sometimes that code doesn't compile and I need to fetch
some development libraries. That's something I'm quite capable of, as
a Linux-based developer, but it's not a job for a systems
administrator. How are Ruby-based sites supposed to be deployed?

Additionally, there are a number of critical-yet-minor problems. The
standard way to invoke Rails is 'rails server' which invokes WEBrick
on port 3000. You can change that port, but to use one <=1024, you
have to be root... and there's no way to have it drop privileges
afterwards. So a Ruby on Rails system, accessible on port 80, will
have to run everything as root. No thanks. Alternatively, you can set
up firewall rules to redirect port 80 to port 3000... or have an
Apache load-balancing proxy... or, my personal favorite, set up an SSH
tunnel to localhost. All this because there's no standard way to drop
privileges after binding (nor a standard way to accept a socket passed
from another process, and listen on that - which is possible with
Ruby, just not conventional).

So, yeah. We're stuck with Rick because we have the better language+library.

ChrisA

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#40150

On Wednesday, February 27, 2013 11:57:05 PM UTC-6, alex23 wrote:
> On Feb 28, 2:53 pm, Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohn...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Wednesday, February 27, 2013 10:18:46 PM UTC-6, alex23 wrote:
> [...]
> * Do you care about the evolution of Python or just give
> it lip service?
> 
> I don't see any problems with how Python is developing now. Then
> again, I am pretty busy using it to write code.

So go write your code and stop trying to stymie the attempts of others who wish to improve Python. Your participation is NOT compulsory!

> * Do you have an ideas for the name of a Python grievance
> list?
>
> http://bugs.python.org/

Well thanks for actually answering a question directly, but we must dig deeper. Deciding the _name_ of a list is just one small detail, the most important question is this:

Q: Do you feel that the bug tracker should be a place where users discuss grievances that distract volunteers from fixing actual bugs?

I'm of the opinion that such discussions are more suited for an entry-level grievance list (such as: PyWarts).

> * What are your opinions of the state of both Tkinter and
> IDLE? Are you proud of these modules/packages?
>
> I don't use them, 

So again, why bother to stymie the attempts of others who DO use them? Crawl back under your rock and write some code.

> ...nor do I need to feel "pride" about any part of the
> Python standard library. Either something is useful to me or not.

That's a fairly selfish outlook Alex. 

Okay, maybe you don't care about the state of Python's stdlib, fine, but other people do. How does flinging poo on these people help anyone? But more importantly how does flinging poo reflect on your image in this community?

> > * Why do you support Guido's continued reign of silence?
>
> Why do you inject hyperbole into everything you write?

The question is quite valid and your are diverting again!

> > * But most importantly, do you not want the community/
> > language to evolve or remain static?
>
> I already answered that above. [...] Can you provide a link to
> your "improved" tkinter package on PyPI? 

No, because my "awesome re-write of Tkinter" does not live at PyPI.

> Where is your draft PEP for its inclusion in the standard
> library?

I have not written a PEP on the subject. Are you suggesting that if i don't write a PEP my proposal is "dead in the water"? If so, this is exactly the kind of barriers that keep Python's stdlib in such a atrocious state!

What if i'm a horrible writer and a genius code artist? If the community judges the value of "source code" based on the rhetoric of a "document describing the source code", then they are basing their judgments on folly. What happens if i am a seasoned programmer but English is my second language? 

It is my opinion that PEP are great, but they should not be compulsory to having your ideas seriously considered by the community. A great idea is a great idea, no matter how much fluff you add to it. Likewise, a poor idea is a poor idea, and no amount of fluff could ever make it better. In this sense, PEP are a waste of valuable time.

And let's not forget the irony here; the default reply for documentation issues is for the user to "read the effing source!". Hmm, so *you* and others feel that reading source is compulsory for those *without* the ability to comprehend the source, and a waste of time for those *with* the ability to read source? Is this not the definition of hipocracy Alex? I have a feeling there is a bit of malevolence in there also.

Alex, your in ability to understand the asinine barriers a contributor to this community must negotiate is leading me to believe you have _insidious_ intentions.

> How is RickPython proceeding?

My personal Python fork is of no concern to this community, or this mailing list; STAY ON TOPIC!

> > What is your opinion on anything "Python related" Alex?
> My biggest regret re Python is that you found it more
> appealing than Ruby and we got saddled with you instead.

Ahh, and this little "off-hand" statement uncovers the hidden truth. Regardless of your personal feeling of me, your underlying hatred of Python is *glaringly* apparent!

> You responded to a request for advice on learning how to
> handle complex projects with:
> 
> "Before you decide to start participating in outside projects may we
> have a list of some of the software you've written for yourself? (With
> all due respect) I very seriously doubt that someone with only a "few
> months" of programming experience is ready for the real world."

The OP of that thread asked for advice on "large projects" that we might recommend. I tend to prefer giving people good advice and only guessing when i have not other choice. In order to offer good advice i need to know first how experienced the OP is with programming (not only python, but all languages). 

The only "hint" the OP offered was this:

############################################################
#                          Quote                           #
############################################################
# So, I desided to start learning programming a few months #
# ago and by now i feel pretty confident about the basics  #
# of the python language, and programming in general.      #
# Variables,loops, conditionals, data structures, methods  #
# and even some object oriented programming, are all       #
# familiar consepts.                                       #
############################################################

Whilst quite admirable, these very basics fundamentals of programming are NOT going to prepare you for real world coding projects. Maybe the OP has more experience that he failed to mention, but I need more information before i can make an honest assessment of the OP's skill-set. 

Possibly, when he offers such information, i "may" or "may not" be able to offer the best advice, however unlike some folks *cough*, i understand that this information must be available before myself, of anybody, can offer good advice. 

And by the way Alex, you are free to put *your* face into the conversation anytime you like. These are free and open forums the last time i checked. But don't chastise me for following an intelligent protocol.

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#40172

On Fri, Mar 1, 2013 at 5:28 AM, Rick Johnson
<rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> wrote:
> Q: Do you feel that the bug tracker should be a place where users discuss grievances that distract volunteers from fixing actual bugs?

So you admit that discussion of your whining about perceived
grievances would distract busy people from doing useful things to and
with Python... and yet you demand GvR's *personal* involvement. I
think you grossly misunderstand the position of BDFL. It's "servant to
all", but not "grovelling, boot-licking sap with no life who spends
all day dealing with idiots". A subtle difference, I'm sure, and I can
understand how someone of your intellect could fail to recognize it.

ChrisA

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#40204

On Mar 1, 4:28 am, Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohn...@gmail.com> wrote:
> And by the way Alex, you are free to put *your* face into the conversation anytime you like.

You're such a little fascist.

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#40431

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

The OP speaks for himself alone.

Python - for such a very young language, and with the documentation and
community blogs available at this point - I cannot ask for more.

And who needs docs when the python syntax is as good as writing plain
english sentence?


On Fri, Mar 1, 2013 at 9:06 PM, Jean-Michel Pichavant <
jeanmichel@sequans.com> wrote:

> [snip hostile replies]
>
> It's somehow funny to read such posts on a thread about someone
> complaining about the community python being hostile.
> I think we should really try to resist the urge of answering trolls
> because no matter how many times we slap them, they'll stay trolls and
> probably get even bigger.
>
> Instead, we take revenge by helping someone asking us to do his homework
> and show the world how merciful the python community is.
>
> JM
>
>
> -- IMPORTANT NOTICE:
>
> The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may
> also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify
> the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other
> person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any
> medium. Thank you.
> --
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>

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#40590

On Wed, 27 Feb 2013 15:25:25 -0800 (PST), alex23 wrote:

> On Feb 27, 1:13 pm, Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohn...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > [...] do you /really/ expect that people
> > have the time to open an issue on the bug tracker?
> 
> If someone can write a paragraph on their blog or this list
> complaining about a problem, then yes, they have the time to open an
> issue on the bug tracker.

I've tried twice to register with the bug tracker -- including
just before sending this post. Both times I got something like
this:

    Subject: Failed issue tracker submission
    From: Python tracker <roundup-admin@psf.upfronthosting.co.za>
    Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2013 00:56:44 +0000

    An unexpected error occurred during the processing
    of your message. The tracker administrator is being
    notified.

So, it's not all that easy to report bugs for me, anyway. I'd
given up, prior, but reading this thread I thought I'd try one
more time.

I had wanted to report doc bugs, too, as I used to do copy and
line editing. I seem to be able to find typos and such rather
easily, but reporting said bugs -- not so easy.

Something seems amiss, I'd say. It may be just me, but the point
still stands.

--Bob Hanson

-- 
Hanson's Heuristic: Ninety-eight percent of what I think I know
is bullshit. The rest is crap.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#40595

On 06/03/2013 01:43, Bob Hanson wrote:
> On Wed, 27 Feb 2013 15:25:25 -0800 (PST), alex23 wrote:
>
>> On Feb 27, 1:13 pm, Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohn...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> [...] do you /really/ expect that people
>>> have the time to open an issue on the bug tracker?
>>
>> If someone can write a paragraph on their blog or this list
>> complaining about a problem, then yes, they have the time to open an
>> issue on the bug tracker.
>
> I've tried twice to register with the bug tracker -- including
> just before sending this post. Both times I got something like
> this:
>
>      Subject: Failed issue tracker submission
>      From: Python tracker <roundup-admin@psf.upfronthosting.co.za>
>      Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2013 00:56:44 +0000
>
>      An unexpected error occurred during the processing
>      of your message. The tracker administrator is being
>      notified.
>
> So, it's not all that easy to report bugs for me, anyway. I'd
> given up, prior, but reading this thread I thought I'd try one
> more time.
>
> I had wanted to report doc bugs, too, as I used to do copy and
> line editing. I seem to be able to find typos and such rather
> easily, but reporting said bugs -- not so easy.
>
> Something seems amiss, I'd say. It may be just me, but the point
> still stands.
>
> --Bob Hanson
>

You'll be delighted to know that everybody will have to sign a 
contributor agreement if they're supplying a patch file on the bug 
tracker, see 
http://blog.python.org/2013/03/introducing-electronic-contributor.html 
and http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2013-March/124540.html

-- 
Cheers.

Mark Lawrence

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#40916

On Wed, 06 Mar 2013 03:12:43 +0000, Mark Lawrence wrote:

> On 06/03/2013 01:43, Bob Hanson wrote:
>
> > [problem reporting bugs]
> 
> You'll be delighted to know that everybody will have to sign a 
> contributor agreement if they're supplying a patch file on the bug 
> tracker, see 
> http://blog.python.org/2013/03/introducing-electronic-contributor.html 
> and http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2013-March/124540.html

Thanks, Mark. I have other responses to reply to, as well. I
suspect that between your advice and the others, I'll learn how
to help with at least doc bugs, soon.

And sorry for the late reply. I changed ISPs (dialup to DSL)
which turned out to be a major... uh... event for the geniuses at
the telephone company out here in the "frontier" of the Oregon
Cascades.

Regards,
Bob Hanson

-- 
Sent from my Smart shoephone. Please excuse failure to top-post,
failure to snip-to-context, and failure to leave message-digest
subject header intact.

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#40593

[Sorry for the double-post -- I somehow had Followup-To set to
poster in the first post.]

On Wed, 27 Feb 2013 15:25:25 -0800 (PST), alex23 wrote:

> On Feb 27, 1:13 pm, Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohn...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > [...] do you /really/ expect that people
> > have the time to open an issue on the bug tracker?
> 
> If someone can write a paragraph on their blog or this list
> complaining about a problem, then yes, they have the time to open an
> issue on the bug tracker.

I've tried twice to register with the bug tracker -- including
just before sending this post. Both times I got something like
this:

    Subject: Failed issue tracker submission
    From: Python tracker <roundup-admin@psf.upfronthosting.co.za>
    Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2013 00:56:44 +0000

    An unexpected error occurred during the processing
    of your message. The tracker administrator is being
    notified.

So, it's not all that easy to report bugs for me, anyway. I'd
given up, prior, but reading this thread I thought I'd try one
more time.

I had wanted to report doc bugs, too, as I used to do copy and
line editing. I seem to be able to find typos and such rather
easily, but reporting said bugs -- not so easy.

Something seems amiss, I'd say. It may be just me, but the point
still stands.

--Bob Hanson

-- 
Hanson's Heuristic: Ninety-eight percent of what I think I know
is bullshit. The rest is crap.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#40594

[Sorry for the double-post -- I somehow had Followup-To set to
poster in the first post.]

On Wed, 27 Feb 2013 15:25:25 -0800 (PST), alex23 wrote:

> On Feb 27, 1:13 pm, Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohn...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > [...] do you /really/ expect that people
> > have the time to open an issue on the bug tracker?
> 
> If someone can write a paragraph on their blog or this list
> complaining about a problem, then yes, they have the time to open an
> issue on the bug tracker.

I've tried twice to register with the bug tracker -- including
just before sending this post. Both times I got something like
this:

    Subject: Failed issue tracker submission
    From: Python tracker <roundup-admin@psf.upfronthosting.co.za>
    Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2013 00:56:44 +0000

    An unexpected error occurred during the processing
    of your message. The tracker administrator is being
    notified.

So, it's not all that easy to report bugs for me, anyway. I'd
given up, prior, but reading this thread I thought I'd try one
more time.

I had wanted to report doc bugs, too, as I used to do copy and
line editing. I seem to be able to find typos and such rather
easily, but reporting said bugs -- not so easy.

Something seems amiss, I'd say. It may be just me, but the point
still stands.

--Bob Hanson

-- 
Hanson's Heuristic: Ninety-eight percent of what I think I know
is bullshit. The rest is crap.

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