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Languages for different purposes (was Re: New user's initial thoughts / criticisms of Python)

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  Languages for different purposes (was Re: New user's initial thoughts / criticisms of Python) Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-11-10 09:58 +1100
    Re: Languages for different purposes (was Re: New user's initial thoughts / criticisms of Python) wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2013-11-11 01:28 -0800
      Re: Languages for different purposes (was Re: New user's initial thoughts / criticisms of Python) Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-11-11 20:55 +1100
      Re: Languages for different purposes (was Re: New user's initial thoughts / criticisms of Python) Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-11-11 14:40 +0000
      Re: Languages for different purposes (was Re: New user's initial thoughts / criticisms of Python) Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2013-11-11 09:32 -0800

#58973 — Languages for different purposes (was Re: New user's initial thoughts / criticisms of Python)

On Sun, Nov 10, 2013 at 8:21 AM, Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on where the field of computer languages is heading, and how that affects the choice of languages for building web sites.
>
> Well, there aren't that many groupings towards which languages
> specialize for (not including embedded or other application-specific
> domains).  There's OS scripting, Web scripting, and then the otherwise
> general-purpose "normative" languages in the middle of those two
> extremes.  But this view presumes a model of computation which hasn't
> settled into wide agreement.

So, on what basis _would_ you choose a language for some purpose?
Without speaking specifically of web development here, how do you
choose a language?

* Some languages are just fundamentally bad. I do not recommend ever
writing production code in Whitespace, Ook, or Piet.

* Some languages force you to do a lot of bookkeeping, memory
management, etc. These are inferior unless their corresponding
advantages (usually performance or memory use) justify it.

* Some situations specifically demand one language. If you're writing
code to be deployed on cheap web servers, it's probably going to have
to be in PHP. If it's to run inside a web browser, it pretty much has
to be JavaScript, ActionScript, or maybe something that compiles to
one of those.

But that would still leave you with a good few choices. When it comes
down to it, how do you choose between Ruby, Python, Perl, Pike,
JavaScript, <insert language of choice here>, etcetera? I can think of
a few considerations that may or may not be important... and I'm sure
you can add more.

- Library support. For web work, it might be useful to be able to
create a PNG image on the fly (live graphs and such), or to have a
simple one-liner that handles cookies and persistence.

- Familiarity with the language. Why learn another one when you
already know this one?

- *Un*familiarity with the language. If you're going to have to learn,
may as well charge your boss for it!

- Proper Unicode support. For manipulating text, helps to be able to
work with it as text.

- Lack of proper Unicode support. Maybe it's easier to just work with
bytes everywhere? :)

- Ease/atomicity of deployment of new versions (maybe even while it's running)

- Buzzwordiness? If your boss asks you to choose a language and you
can say either "Ruby on Rails" or "CherryPy", are you more likely to
get approval for the former?

Something to throw open there. Citations from actual choices made a bonus. :)

ChrisA

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#59053

> 
> 
> * Some languages are just fundamentally bad. 

The flexible string representation is a perfect exemple.

Again, a short explanation:

This FSR splits unicode in chunks. Two immediate consequences:
- It's necessary to keep track of "each individual internal pieces of text".
- It's necessary to waste time in switching between the internal coding
schemes.

Bad memory and bad performance at the same time.


In fact, with such a mechanism, it is even impossible to write an editor.

jmf



I do not recommend ever
> 
> writing production code in Whitespace, Ook, or Piet.
> 
> 
> 
> * Some languages force you to do a lot of bookkeeping, memory
> 
> management, etc. These are inferior unless their corresponding
> 
> advantages (usually performance or memory use) justify it.
> 
> 
> 
> * Some situations specifically demand one language. If you're writing
> 
> code to be deployed on cheap web servers, it's probably going to have
> 
> to be in PHP. If it's to run inside a web browser, it pretty much has
> 
> to be JavaScript, ActionScript, or maybe something that compiles to
> 
> one of those.
> 
> 
> 
> But that would still leave you with a good few choices. When it comes
> 
> down to it, how do you choose between Ruby, Python, Perl, Pike,
> 
> JavaScript, <insert language of choice here>, etcetera? I can think of
> 
> a few considerations that may or may not be important... and I'm sure
> 
> you can add more.
> 
> 
> 
> - Library support. For web work, it might be useful to be able to
> 
> create a PNG image on the fly (live graphs and such), or to have a
> 
> simple one-liner that handles cookies and persistence.
> 
> 
> 
> - Familiarity with the language. Why learn another one when you
> 
> already know this one?
> 
> 
> 
> - *Un*familiarity with the language. If you're going to have to learn,
> 
> may as well charge your boss for it!
> 
> 
> 
> - Proper Unicode support. For manipulating text, helps to be able to
> 
> work with it as text.
> 
> 
> 
> - Lack of proper Unicode support. Maybe it's easier to just work with
> 
> bytes everywhere? :)
> 
> 
> 
> - Ease/atomicity of deployment of new versions (maybe even while it's running)
> 
> 
> 
> - Buzzwordiness? If your boss asks you to choose a language and you
> 
> can say either "Ruby on Rails" or "CherryPy", are you more likely to
> 
> get approval for the former?
> 
> 
> 
> Something to throw open there. Citations from actual choices made a bonus. :)
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisA

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#59058

On Mon, Nov 11, 2013 at 8:28 PM,  <wxjmfauth@gmail.com> wrote:
>> * Some languages are just fundamentally bad.
>
> The flexible string representation is a perfect exemple.

Wow. A new low for you, jmf... comparing PEP 393 to Ook?!?

> In fact, with such a mechanism, it is even impossible to write an editor.

And somehow a performance tradeoff makes Python no longer Turing complete.

ChrisA

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#59080

On 11/11/2013 09:28, wxjmfauth@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>> * Some languages are just fundamentally bad.
>
> The flexible string representation is a perfect exemple.
>
> Again, a short explanation:
>
> This FSR splits unicode in chunks. Two immediate consequences:
> - It's necessary to keep track of "each individual internal pieces of text".
> - It's necessary to waste time in switching between the internal coding
> schemes.
>
> Bad memory and bad performance at the same time.
>
>
> In fact, with such a mechanism, it is even impossible to write an editor.
>
> jmf
>

For the benefit of newbies, lurkers or whatever please ignore the 
rubbish written by "Joseph McCarthy" Faust regarding PEP 393 and the 
Flexible String Representation.  He keeps making these false claims in 
double spaced google crap despite having been shot down in this thread
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.lang.python/JkVQT0Wbq1A[1-25-false], 
where he was asked to provide evidence to support his claims.  he didn't 
do so then, he's been asked repeatedly since to do so but hasn't because 
he can't, hence his newly aquired nickname.

-- 
Python is the second best programming language in the world.
But the best has yet to be invented.  Christian Tismer

Mark Lawrence

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#59092

On 11/11/2013 01:28 AM, wxjmfauth@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>
>> * Some languages are just fundamentally bad.
>
> The flexible string representation is a perfect exemple.

Argh!  He escaped!  *chase* *scuffle* *stuff* *stuff* *stuff*

Whew.  Safely back in the troll bin.

Okay, back to my day.

--
~Ethan~

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