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Re: List spam

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  Re: List spam Ghodmode <ghodmode@ghodmode.com> - 2011-08-18 22:37 +0800
    Re: List spam Alain Ketterlin <alain@dpt-info.u-strasbg.fr> - 2011-08-18 16:58 +0200
      Re: List spam Ghodmode <ghodmode@ghodmode.com> - 2011-08-19 00:09 +0800
        Re: List spam Anssi Saari <as@sci.fi> - 2011-08-18 21:13 +0300
          Re: List spam Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2011-08-18 21:33 -0700
      Re: List spam gene heskett <gheskett@wdtv.com> - 2011-08-18 12:15 -0400
        Re: List spam Alain Ketterlin <alain@dpt-info.u-strasbg.fr> - 2011-08-18 18:58 +0200
          Re: List spam gene heskett <gheskett@wdtv.com> - 2011-08-18 14:25 -0400
            Re: List spam Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-08-19 12:10 +1000
              Re: List spam Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2011-08-19 00:03 -0400
              Re: List spam gene heskett <gheskett@wdtv.com> - 2011-08-18 22:35 -0400
        Re: List spam Peter Pearson <ppearson@nowhere.invalid> - 2011-08-18 17:10 +0000
          Re: List spam Philip Semanchuk <philip@semanchuk.com> - 2011-08-18 13:21 -0400
          Re: List spam gene heskett <gheskett@wdtv.com> - 2011-08-18 14:28 -0400
        Re: List spam Javier <nospam@nospam.com> - 2011-08-20 03:17 +0000
          Re: List spam Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2011-08-20 16:07 +1000
      Re: List spam Ned Deily <nad@acm.org> - 2011-08-18 09:37 -0700
      Re: List spam Peter Pearson <ppearson@nowhere.invalid> - 2011-08-18 17:02 +0000
      Re: List spam Ghodmode <ghodmode@ghodmode.com> - 2011-08-19 01:29 +0800
      Re: List spam Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2011-08-18 15:58 -0400

#11757 — Re: List spam

On Thu, Aug 18, 2011 at 9:39 PM, Philip Semanchuk <philip@semanchuk.com> wrote:
>
> On Aug 18, 2011, at 8:58 AM, Jason Staudenmayer wrote:
>
>> I really like this list as part of my learning tools but the amount of spam that I've been getting from it is CRAZY. Doesn't anything get scanned before it sent to the list?
>
> This has been discussed on the list a number of times before, so I'll refer you to the archives for details.
>
> Basically, the mailing list receives postings from Google Groups and vice versa. Most of the spam comes from Google Groups. If you add a mail filter that deletes anything with the "Organization" header set to "http://groups.google.com", you won't see much spam anymore. In my experience, you'll also miss a number of legitimate postings.

You are absolutely right, it has been brought up before.  But I'm glad
it's been brought up again.  It's such a problem that it degrades the
usefulness of the list and the community.

Most of the mailing lists I'm on are managed using Google Groups and
many of them are on mailman, like this list.  I don't see spam on
them, so I don't know what's going on here.

It's not really filtering at all.  Most lists only allow members to
post and the admins are quick to boot offenders.

For the most part, I'm just a lurker, so my suggestion shouldn't carry
as much weight, but here it is anyway...

Make an effort to curb the spam even if it means killing the newsgroup
availability.  Choose mailman or Google Groups, or another single
solution.  Make it members only, but allow anyone to register with an
automated confirmation email and a CAPTCHA.  Appoint a list admin who
has a few minutes each day to scan subjects of emails for spammers and
remove them from the members list.

... problem solved.

Yes.  I'm saying we should abandon those who only follow the list via
newsgroups.
Yes.  I'm willing to do the work, but I'm not the right choice.


> HTH
> Philip

--
Ghodmode
http://www.ghodmode.com/blog

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#11762

Ghodmode <ghodmode@ghodmode.com> writes:

[...]
> Make an effort to curb the spam even if it means killing the newsgroup
> availability.  Choose mailman or Google Groups, or another single
> solution.  Make it members only, but allow anyone to register with an
> automated confirmation email and a CAPTCHA.  Appoint a list admin who
> has a few minutes each day to scan subjects of emails for spammers and
> remove them from the members list.

Or save work and find a public nntp server (or setup one, or ask your
provider), and use a news reader to follow the list (even thunderbird
can do this). No spam, no need to store messages on your machine,
auto-purge after a configurable delay, etc.

Problem solved.

-- Alain.

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#11776

On Thu, Aug 18, 2011 at 10:58 PM, Alain Ketterlin
<alain@dpt-info.u-strasbg.fr> wrote:
> Ghodmode <ghodmode@ghodmode.com> writes:
>
> [...]
>> Make an effort to curb the spam even if it means killing the newsgroup
>> availability.  Choose mailman or Google Groups, or another single
>> solution.  Make it members only, but allow anyone to register with an
>> automated confirmation email and a CAPTCHA.  Appoint a list admin who
>> has a few minutes each day to scan subjects of emails for spammers and
>> remove them from the members list.
>
> Or save work and find a public nntp server (or setup one, or ask your
> provider), and use a news reader to follow the list (even thunderbird
> can do this). No spam, no need to store messages on your machine,
> auto-purge after a configurable delay, etc.
>
> Problem solved.

Is that easier than just checking your email?  I guess it's a matter
of perspective...

Newsgroups aren't inherently spam-free.  They're filtered.  At least
that's the case with Gmane (http://gmane.org/spam.php).

My own ISP doesn't provide a news server and, although there are many
links for free open news servers, most of them don't seem to work.

I did check, though.  I found a free, open news server with
comp.lang.python after 6 that didn't work.  Unfortunately, the one I
found is read-only.  I'll have to do some more looking if I want to
participate in the newsgroup.  I set it up in Thunderbird.  I waited
for a few minutes while it loaded the available newsgroups, then
filtered the list for comp.lang.python and subscribed.  I noticed
that, when clicking on a message, there is another delay while I wait
for the content of the message to load.

I was happy to see significantly less spam in the newsgroup than in
the mailing list, but there was still more than I see in other mailing
lists.

For me, this is much more difficult, although I'm sure that this is a
matter of perspective.  Also, I have something that's tied to this
computer.  I can't read it on my laptop, my mobile device, or at a
cyber-cafe.  I have to sit in front of this computer if I want to read
the newsgroup and, until I find another news server that isn't
read-only, I can't even post messages.

For me, I'll stick with email.


> -- Alain.

--
Ghodmode
http://www.ghodmode.com/blog

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#11794

Ghodmode <ghodmode@ghodmode.com> writes:

> Newsgroups aren't inherently spam-free.  They're filtered.  At least
> that's the case with Gmane (http://gmane.org/spam.php).
>
> My own ISP doesn't provide a news server and, although there are many
> links for free open news servers, most of them don't seem to work.

You know, Gmane allows access also via NNTP, including this list.
Server news.gmane.org, group name gmane.comp.python.general.

Haven't used it since I get this list via "normal" NNTP as
comp.lang.python. My NNTP access is via a computer club for 8 euros
per year.

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#11831

On Thu, 18 Aug 2011 21:13:09 +0300, Anssi Saari <as@sci.fi> declaimed
the following in gmane.comp.python.general:

> You know, Gmane allows access also via NNTP, including this list.
> Server news.gmane.org, group name gmane.comp.python.general.
> 
> Haven't used it since I get this list via "normal" NNTP as
> comp.lang.python. My NNTP access is via a computer club for 8 euros
> per year.

	Whereas I had to go to Gmane as the NNTP server "provided" by
Earthlink collected all the spam from GoogleGroups; Gmane only leaks a
few times (but the leaks tend to become massive looking as the
break-through username sends a dozen essentially identical messages with
slight subject changes).

	I say "provided" as it seems the former separate
news.west.earthlink.net and news.east.earthlink.net both now route to a
giganews (or whatever that system is). I'm guessing Earthlink decided to
subcontract the NNTP service out.
-- 
	Wulfraed                 Dennis Lee Bieber         AF6VN
        wlfraed@ix.netcom.com    HTTP://wlfraed.home.netcom.com/

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#11778

On Thursday, August 18, 2011 12:14:39 PM Alain Ketterlin did opine:

> Ghodmode <ghodmode@ghodmode.com> writes:
> 
> [...]
> 
> > Make an effort to curb the spam even if it means killing the newsgroup
> > availability.  Choose mailman or Google Groups, or another single
> > solution.  Make it members only, but allow anyone to register with an
> > automated confirmation email and a CAPTCHA.  Appoint a list admin who
> > has a few minutes each day to scan subjects of emails for spammers and
> > remove them from the members list.
> 
> Or save work and find a public nntp server (or setup one, or ask your
> provider), and use a news reader to follow the list (even thunderbird
> can do this). No spam, no need to store messages on your machine,
> auto-purge after a configurable delay, etc.
> 
> Problem solved.
> 
> -- Alain.

That is asking the user to take considerable effort and resources to do 
that.  What is wrong with the mailing list only approach?

Cheers, gene
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
The plot was designed in a light vein that somehow became varicose.
		-- David Lardner

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#11784

gene heskett <gheskett@wdtv.com> writes:

>> Or save work and find a public nntp server (or setup one, or ask your
>> provider), and use a news reader to follow the list (even thunderbird
>> can do this). No spam, no need to store messages on your machine,
>> auto-purge after a configurable delay, etc.

> That is asking the user to take considerable effort and resources to do 
> that.  What is wrong with the mailing list only approach?

Nothing really.

Regarding effort and resources, once you've found a NNTP server there's
very little effort (probably less than subscribing to a mailing list). I
have 4 lines in my .emacs. And this lets me browse dozens of groups (or
thousands if I had time for this). It might not be easy to find a server
which will let you post, but that's because a few years back many
internet providers decided that nntp was too much traffic. I guess it
would now be considered ridiculous compared to the average web-site.

But I'd like to return the question. What's wrong with nntp? It looks
like everybody agrees that nntp brings spam. I just wanted to say that's
not true, I use nntp extensively and haven't seen spam for months (I'm
talking about 15-20 groups, not comp.lang.python only).

The real problem here seems to be google groups, which in some way
forwards spam to the mailing-list. How this happens is beyond my
understanding. But let's try to fix the real problem.

-- Alain.

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#11795

On Thursday, August 18, 2011 02:12:58 PM Alain Ketterlin did opine:

> gene heskett <gheskett@wdtv.com> writes:
> >> Or save work and find a public nntp server (or setup one, or ask your
> >> provider), and use a news reader to follow the list (even thunderbird
> >> can do this). No spam, no need to store messages on your machine,
> >> auto-purge after a configurable delay, etc.
> > 
> > That is asking the user to take considerable effort and resources to
> > do that.  What is wrong with the mailing list only approach?
> 
> Nothing really.
> 
> Regarding effort and resources, once you've found a NNTP server there's
> very little effort (probably less than subscribing to a mailing list). I
> have 4 lines in my .emacs. And this lets me browse dozens of groups (or
> thousands if I had time for this). It might not be easy to find a server
> which will let you post, but that's because a few years back many
> internet providers decided that nntp was too much traffic. I guess it
> would now be considered ridiculous compared to the average web-site.
> 
> But I'd like to return the question. What's wrong with nntp?

The sheer volume of traffic eats 99% of an ISP's bandwidth.  The last time 
I checked with one of the local ISP's that I quit using years ago because 
it was 30 miles away and was then long distance, giving me $300 phone 
bills, they said their server died (again, and that then traffic was such 
that a 300GB hard drive was being subject to a posting lifetime of 3 hours 
because it was filling the drive that quickly.  At the time, they had 5 T1 
circuits, and NNTP was eating 4 of them.  To an ISP, that stuff is found on 
the ground behind the male of the bovine specie.  No ISP I have access to a 
mail account on, except google, has the resources to maintain a full 
listing nnpt server.

> It looks
> like everybody agrees that nntp brings spam. I just wanted to say that's
> not true, I use nntp extensively and haven't seen spam for months (I'm
> talking about 15-20 groups, not comp.lang.python only).
> 
> The real problem here seems to be google groups, which in some way
> forwards spam to the mailing-list. How this happens is beyond my
> understanding. But let's try to fix the real problem.
 
I could just nuke them, but I suppose I'd then have to resubscribe to about 
10 of my mailing lists through the server this msg comes from.  That is 
gradually happening anyway because posting through a gmail account, you 
cannot turn off the dup deletions, so one never knows if ones post to a 
list got there until someone replies, you don't get an echo.  I have even 
tried CCing this address as some have suggested, but that doesn't work 
either.

gmail is NOT the huge thing it was touted to be, not by a hell of a long 
row of apple trees.
 
> -- Alain.


Cheers, gene
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
"It's not just a computer -- it's your ass."
		-- Cal Keegan

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#11825

gene heskett wrote:


>> But I'd like to return the question. What's wrong with nntp?
> 
> The sheer volume of traffic eats 99% of an ISP's bandwidth.

I doubt that very much, particularly if the ISP drops the binary newsgroups.

My ISP, Internode, has provided nntp for many years. For a while a few years
back they dropped binary newsgroups, but thay have brought them back. They
wouldn't do that if there wasn't a clear demand for it, and if they didn't
believe that on the balance, providing free Usenet access to customers
didn't pay for itself.

These days, many big ISPs complain about bittorrent using up their
bandwidth. I call shenanigans. That's like my local bottle shop complaining
that 99% of their sales comes from wine, and that stocking all that wine
takes away valuable shelf space that could be used for imported Romanian
beers and Chinese whiskey (no offense to anyone who likes Romanian beer or
Chinese whiskey). It's a nonsense claim -- if your customers want to use
the bandwidth they're paying for on bittorrent, or any other protocol, what
difference does it make to you? It's not like you have to install a second
Interweb tube just for bittorrent, or that bittorrent packets cost more
than HTTP packets. Fer fecks sake, the ISP doesn't even have to run a
bittorrent server! It's practically free money to the ISP, packets go in,
packets go out, they don't have to do a bloody thing with them.

Now, an ISP might not have the bandwidth to supply all the needs of their
customers, that's a separate issue. But complaining that the problem is
specifically because they use bittorrent, as if it would disappear if they
changed to HTTP, is bogus.



-- 
Steven

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#11830

On 8/18/2011 10:10 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:

> Now, an ISP might not have the bandwidth to supply all the needs of their
> customers, that's a separate issue. But complaining that the problem is
> specifically because they use bittorrent, as if it would disappear if they
> changed to HTTP, is bogus.

Or changed to getting their movies via NetFlix, for instance, as Comcast 
*is* complaining about. I believe their real complaint is that they are 
only paid to move bits, and not for originating them, even though they 
already get several times as much per month as NetFlix.

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy

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#11836

On Thursday, August 18, 2011 10:23:49 PM Steven D'Aprano did opine:

> gene heskett wrote:
> >> But I'd like to return the question. What's wrong with nntp?
> > 
> > The sheer volume of traffic eats 99% of an ISP's bandwidth.
> 
> I doubt that very much, particularly if the ISP drops the binary
> newsgroups.
[...]
> It's not like you have to install a second Interweb tube just for
> bittorrent, or that bittorrent packets cost more than HTTP packets. Fer
> fecks sake, the ISP doesn't even have to run a bittorrent server! It's
> practically free money to the ISP, packets go in, packets go out, they
> don't have to do a bloody thing with them.
 
Except pay for the bandwidth to get the bytes into their system.

> Now, an ISP might not have the bandwidth to supply all the needs of
> their customers, that's a separate issue.

Yes it is, which is why Hughs has a bandwidth limit cap they lift in the 
middle of the night when overall traffic is zilch.  The bird(s) only have 
so much bandwidth and it costs tens of millions to 'lay another fiber' when 
its 22,300 miles up.

OTOH, they have to pay for that bandwidth 24/7, so if they can move the 
relatively few high traffic folks usage to 3-5 AM, they can service more 
people watching old black and white John Holmes clips at 9-11pm. ;-)

> But complaining that the
> problem is specifically because they use bittorrent, as if it would
> disappear if they changed to HTTP, is bogus.

Agreed, that's 100% a red herring.

Cheers, gene
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Q:	How many mathematicians does it take to screw in a light bulb?
A:	One.  He gives it to six Californians, thereby reducing the problem
	to the earlier joke.

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#11786

On Thu, 18 Aug 2011 12:15:59 -0400, gene heskett <gheskett@wdtv.com> wrote:
[snip]
> What is wrong with the mailing list only approach?

In the mailing-list approach, how do I search for prior discussions
on a subject?  (I'm not particularly opposed to the mailing list,
I'm just an NNTP follower worried about the uncertainties of change.)

-- 
To email me, substitute nowhere->spamcop, invalid->net.

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#11787

On Aug 18, 2011, at 1:10 PM, Peter Pearson wrote:

> On Thu, 18 Aug 2011 12:15:59 -0400, gene heskett <gheskett@wdtv.com> wrote:
> [snip]
>> What is wrong with the mailing list only approach?
> 
> In the mailing-list approach, how do I search for prior discussions
> on a subject?  (I'm not particularly opposed to the mailing list,
> I'm just an NNTP follower worried about the uncertainties of change.)

I use a Google search like this:
site:mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/  banana

Although that has its own issues, as not all messages seem to make it to that list (or they have the X-No-Archive bit set?)


Cheers
P

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#11796

On Thursday, August 18, 2011 02:26:24 PM Peter Pearson did opine:

> On Thu, 18 Aug 2011 12:15:59 -0400, gene heskett <gheskett@wdtv.com>
> wrote: [snip]
> 
> > What is wrong with the mailing list only approach?
> 
> In the mailing-list approach, how do I search for prior discussions
> on a subject?  (I'm not particularly opposed to the mailing list,
> I'm just an NNTP follower worried about the uncertainties of change.)

If the message still exists in your local email corpus, kmail for one has 
no problems searching it.  However, since my corpus is close to 10gigs 
because my inbox and one list are not expired, the rest of them are expired 
on a selectable schedule that only saves the last 2000 or so msgs.

Cheers, gene
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Hoare's Law of Large Problems:
	Inside every large problem is a small problem struggling to get 
out.

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#11896

You will lose a lot of people asking/answering interesting stuff, and
maybe eventually the list will die.  Me (like many people with little
free time) seldom post in blogs/forums/mailing lists where I need to
register.

gene heskett <gheskett@wdtv.com> wrote:
> That is asking the user to take considerable effort and resources to do 
> that.  What is wrong with the mailing list only approach?

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#11900

Javier <nospam@nospam.com> writes:

> You will lose a lot of people asking/answering interesting stuff, and
> maybe eventually the list will die.

I don't think it would die, but the chances are greater that it would
become insular and further disconnected from the Python community, and
hence far less useful.

> Me (like many people with little free time) seldom post in
> blogs/forums/mailing lists where I need to register.

+1

-- 
 \              “Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does |
  `\           knowledge.” —Charles Darwin, _The Descent of Man_, 1871 |
_o__)                                                                  |
Ben Finney

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#11779

In article 
<CAK--mtqOq0ScvoFZFZfcd7Jf9N1YjcpqYjCrDxgtxxPdoyCxWg@mail.gmail.com>,
 Ghodmode <ghodmode@ghodmode.com> wrote:
> Newsgroups aren't inherently spam-free.  They're filtered.  At least
> that's the case with Gmane (http://gmane.org/spam.php).
> 
> My own ISP doesn't provide a news server and, although there are many
> links for free open news servers, most of them don't seem to work.
> 
> I did check, though.  I found a free, open news server with
> comp.lang.python after 6 that didn't work.  Unfortunately, the one I
> found is read-only.  I'll have to do some more looking if I want to
> participate in the newsgroup.  I set it up in Thunderbird.  I waited
> for a few minutes while it loaded the available newsgroups, then
> filtered the list for comp.lang.python and subscribed.  I noticed
> that, when clicking on a message, there is another delay while I wait
> for the content of the message to load.
> 
> I was happy to see significantly less spam in the newsgroup than in
> the mailing list, but there was still more than I see in other mailing
> lists.
> 
> For me, this is much more difficult, although I'm sure that this is a
> matter of perspective.  Also, I have something that's tied to this
> computer.  I can't read it on my laptop, my mobile device, or at a
> cyber-cafe.  I have to sit in front of this computer if I want to read
> the newsgroup and, until I find another news server that isn't
> read-only, I can't even post messages.

Confusingly, this "forum" is available via a number of channels.  Here 
is a subset of them (there are more):

1. python-list mailing list
   http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
2. comp.lang.python
   news:comp.lang.python  (Usenet group via NNTP)
3. google groups
4. gmane (various formats)
   http://dir.gmane.org/gmane.comp.python.general
   a.  gmane.comp.python.general (non-Usenet group via NNTP)
   b.  web interfaces

All of the above allow both reading and posting.  gmane does spam 
filtering so, if you read and post through it, you will avoid most of 
the spam (a little bit gets through).  The gmane nntp server (which is 
for gmane groups only, not regular Usenet groups) is free to use. 

http://gmane.org/about.php

-- 
 Ned Deily,
 nad@acm.org

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#11785

On Thu, 18 Aug 2011 16:58:04 +0200, Alain Ketterlin wrote:
> Ghodmode <ghodmode@ghodmode.com> writes:
>
> [...]
>> Make an effort to curb the spam even if it means killing the newsgroup
>> availability.  Choose mailman or Google Groups, or another single
>> solution.  Make it members only, but allow anyone to register with an
>> automated confirmation email and a CAPTCHA.  Appoint a list admin who
>> has a few minutes each day to scan subjects of emails for spammers and
>> remove them from the members list.
>
> Or save work and find a public nntp server (or setup one, or ask your
> provider), and use a news reader to follow the list (even thunderbird
> can do this). No spam, no need to store messages on your machine,
> auto-purge after a configurable delay, etc.

Or pay for filtered NNTP service.  I'm happy with
news.individual.net: 10 euros per year, appears to be
competently run, very little spam gets through (maybe like 1
message per heavily posted group per day), and they probably
carry all the newsgroups you follow.  I have no affiliation
with them, except for being a customer who hopes they stay
in business.

-- 
To email me, substitute nowhere->spamcop, invalid->net.

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#11788

On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 12:37 AM, Ned Deily <nad@acm.org> wrote:
> 4. gmane (various formats)
>   http://dir.gmane.org/gmane.comp.python.general
>   a.  gmane.comp.python.general (non-Usenet group via NNTP)

> All of the above allow both reading and posting.  gmane does spam
> filtering so, if you read and post through it, you will avoid most of
> the spam (a little bit gets through).  The gmane nntp server (which is
> for gmane groups only, not regular Usenet groups) is free to use.

Unfortunately, Gmane's version of this newsgroup
(gmane.comp.python.general) has all of the offensive spam.  I'm kinda
surprised considering the detailed information that they put on their
site about spam filtering.

These are the ones I got to work:
  - textnews.news.cambrium.nl
  - mail.tsu.ru

... They're light on the spam, but they're read-only.

Ironically, the Google Groups version
(https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/comp.lang.python) has almost
none of the spam, although I did see one message that said "This topic
has been hidden because it was flagged for abuse".  I can't join that
Google Group, though.  I guess that's because it's just a viewer for
the newsgroup.


> --
>  Ned Deily,
>  nad@acm.org

--
Ghodmode
http://www.ghodmode.com/blog

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#11802

> I did check, though.  I found a free, open news server with
> comp.lang.python after 6 that didn't work.  Unfortunately, the one I
> found is read-only.  I'll have to do some more looking if I want to
> participate in the newsgroup.  I set it up in Thunderbird.

I read and post to this and other Python lists via news.gmane.org (free) 
with Thunderbird. It mirrors 1000s of technical mail lists, including 
200+ with 'python'. I believe it therefore has less spam than c.l.p (ie, 
minus whatever gets filtered out by the pipermail at python.org). First 
post to any list requires a response to an email. Uptime is pretty good.

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy

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