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Learning Python (or Haskell) makes you a worse programmer

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  Learning Python (or Haskell) makes you a worse programmer Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-03-29 11:44 +1100
    Re: Learning Python (or Haskell) makes you a worse programmer Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2016-03-28 21:05 -0700
    Re: Learning Python (or Haskell) makes you a worse programmer Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2016-03-28 22:13 -0600
    [OT] C# -- sharp or carp? was Re: Learning Python (or Haskell) makes you a worse programmer Peter Otten <__peter__@web.de> - 2016-03-29 11:39 +0200
    Re: Learning Python (or Haskell) makes you a worse programmer "Sven R. Kunze" <srkunze@mail.de> - 2016-03-29 12:05 +0200
    Re: [OT] C# -- sharp or carp? was Re: Learning Python (or Haskell) makes you a worse programmer "Sven R. Kunze" <srkunze@mail.de> - 2016-03-29 12:18 +0200
    Re: [OT] C# -- sharp or carp? was Re: Learning Python (or Haskell) makes you a worse programmer "Sven R. Kunze" <srkunze@mail.de> - 2016-03-29 17:41 +0200
    Re: [OT] C# -- sharp or carp? was Re: Learning Python (or Haskell) makes you a worse programmer Peter Otten <__peter__@web.de> - 2016-03-29 18:05 +0200
    Re: [OT] C# -- sharp or carp? was Re: Learning Python (or Haskell) makes you a worse programmer "Sven R. Kunze" <srkunze@mail.de> - 2016-03-29 18:11 +0200
    Re: [OT] C# -- sharp or carp? was Re: Learning Python (or Haskell) makes you a worse programmer Vito De Tullio <vito.detullio@gmail.com> - 2016-03-29 23:36 +0200
    Re: Learning Python (or Haskell) makes you a worse programmer "Eric S. Johansson" <esj@harvee.org> - 2016-03-29 19:29 -0400
    Re: Learning Python (or Haskell) makes you a worse programmer "Sven R. Kunze" <srkunze@mail.de> - 2016-03-30 12:07 +0200
      Re: Learning Python (or Haskell) makes you a worse programmer BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-03-30 11:21 +0100
        Re: Learning Python (or Haskell) makes you a worse programmer "Sven R. Kunze" <srkunze@mail.de> - 2016-03-30 13:43 +0200
        Re: Learning Python (or Haskell) makes you a worse programmer "Eric S. Johansson" <esj@harvee.org> - 2016-03-30 09:06 -0400
        Re: Learning Python (or Haskell) makes you a worse programmer Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-03-31 00:09 +1100
        Re: Learning Python (or Haskell) makes you a worse programmer "Eric S. Johansson" <esj@harvee.org> - 2016-03-30 09:37 -0400
    Re: Learning Python (or Haskell) makes you a worse programmer Tim Golden <mail@timgolden.me.uk> - 2016-03-30 11:14 +0100
      Re: Learning Python (or Haskell) makes you a worse programmer Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2016-03-31 10:36 +1300
        Re: Learning Python (or Haskell) makes you a worse programmer Travis Griggs <travisgriggs@gmail.com> - 2016-03-31 09:30 -0700
        Re: Learning Python (or Haskell) makes you a worse programmer Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2016-03-31 10:34 -0600
        Re: Learning Python (or Haskell) makes you a worse programmer "Sven R. Kunze" <srkunze@mail.de> - 2016-03-31 18:44 +0200
    Re: Learning Python (or Haskell) makes you a worse programmer "Sven R. Kunze" <srkunze@mail.de> - 2016-03-30 12:23 +0200

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#105938 — Learning Python (or Haskell) makes you a worse programmer

http://lukeplant.me.uk/blog/posts/why-learning-haskell-python-makes-you-a-worse-programmer/



-- 
Steven

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#105944

On 03/28/2016 05:44 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:

> http://lukeplant.me.uk/blog/posts/why-learning-haskell-python-makes-you-a-worse-programmer/

Beautiful.  And my deepest sympathies for the OP.

--
~Ethan~

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#105945

On 03/28/2016 06:44 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> http://lukeplant.me.uk/blog/posts/why-learning-haskell-python-makes-you-a-worse-programmer/

I have the same problem as the writer.  Working in Python makes me
really dislike working in any other language!

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#105972 — [OT] C# -- sharp or carp? was Re: Learning Python (or Haskell) makes you a worse programmer

Steven D'Aprano wrote:

> http://lukeplant.me.uk/blog/posts/why-learning-haskell-python-makes-you-a-worse-programmer/

I was about to post that in a few years' time C# will acquire enough 
features to make code that follows the functional paradigm feasible in that 
language.

Then I noted that this was the 10th anniversary repost ;)

My question to those who know a bit of C#: what is the state-of-the-art 
equivalent to

"\n".join(foo.description() for foo in mylist
                         if foo.description() != "")

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#105973

On 29.03.2016 06:13, Michael Torrie wrote:
> On 03/28/2016 06:44 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>> http://lukeplant.me.uk/blog/posts/why-learning-haskell-python-makes-you-a-worse-programmer/
> I have the same problem as the writer.  Working in Python makes me
> really dislike working in any other language!
>

Python = English


  :)

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#105974 — Re: [OT] C# -- sharp or carp? was Re: Learning Python (or Haskell) makes you a worse programmer

On 29.03.2016 11:39, Peter Otten wrote:
> My question to those who know a bit of C#: what is the state-of-the-art
> equivalent to
>
> "\n".join(foo.description() for foo in mylist
>                           if foo.description() != "")
>

Using LINQ, I suppose: 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_Integrated_Query

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#105990 — Re: [OT] C# -- sharp or carp? was Re: Learning Python (or Haskell) makes you a worse programmer

On 29.03.2016 12:18, Sven R. Kunze wrote:
> On 29.03.2016 11:39, Peter Otten wrote:
>> My question to those who know a bit of C#: what is the state-of-the-art
>> equivalent to
>>
>> "\n".join(foo.description() for foo in mylist
>>                           if foo.description() != "")
>>
>
> Using LINQ, I suppose: 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_Integrated_Query

Friend of mine told me something like this:

String.Join("\n", mylist.Where(foo => 
!String.IsNullOrEmpty(foo.description)).Select(foo => foo.description))

[untested, but from what I know of quite correct]

Best,
Sven

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#105992 — Re: [OT] C# -- sharp or carp? was Re: Learning Python (or Haskell) makes you a worse programmer

Sven R. Kunze wrote:

> On 29.03.2016 12:18, Sven R. Kunze wrote:
>> On 29.03.2016 11:39, Peter Otten wrote:
>>> My question to those who know a bit of C#: what is the state-of-the-art
>>> equivalent to
>>>
>>> "\n".join(foo.description() for foo in mylist
>>>                           if foo.description() != "")
>>>
>>
>> Using LINQ, I suppose:
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_Integrated_Query
> 
> Friend of mine told me something like this:
> 
> String.Join("\n", mylist.Where(foo =>
> !String.IsNullOrEmpty(foo.description)).Select(foo => foo.description))
> 
> [untested, but from what I know of quite correct]

Reformatting it a bit

String.Join(
    "\n", 
    mylist.Where(
        foo => !String.IsNullOrEmpty(foo.description)
    ).Select(
        foo => foo.description))

this looks like a variant of Python's

str.join(
   "\n",
   map(lambda foo: foo.description,
   filter(lambda foo: foo.description, mylist)))

Assuming it's type-safe and can perhaps reshuffle the where and select part 
into something optimised there is definitely progress.

But still, Python's generator expressions are cool..

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#105993 — Re: [OT] C# -- sharp or carp? was Re: Learning Python (or Haskell) makes you a worse programmer

On 29.03.2016 18:05, Peter Otten wrote:
> Reformatting it a bit
>
> String.Join(
>      "\n",
>      mylist.Where(
>          foo => !String.IsNullOrEmpty(foo.description)
>      ).Select(
>          foo => foo.description))
>
> this looks like a variant of Python's
>
> str.join(
>     "\n",
>     map(lambda foo: foo.description,
>     filter(lambda foo: foo.description, mylist)))
>
> Assuming it's type-safe and can perhaps reshuffle the where and select part
> into something optimised there is definitely progress.
>
> But still, Python's generator expressions are cool..

Haha, sure. But don't get stuck there. Learn something new from time to 
time; even a new language.


Best,
Sven

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#106004 — Re: [OT] C# -- sharp or carp? was Re: Learning Python (or Haskell) makes you a worse programmer

Sven R. Kunze wrote:

>>> My question to those who know a bit of C#: what is the state-of-the-art
>>> equivalent to
>>>
>>> "\n".join(foo.description() for foo in mylist
>>>                           if foo.description() != "")

> Friend of mine told me something like this:
> 
> String.Join("\n", mylist.Where(foo =>
> !String.IsNullOrEmpty(foo.description)).Select(foo => foo.description))


I don't know if is "better" or not, but I find more readable using the 
"sql"-like syntax


string.Join("\n", from foo in mylist
                  where !string.IsNullOrEmpty(foo.description())
                  select foo.description());

which is relatively similar to the python's comprehension.


-- 
By ZeD

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#106017

On 3/29/2016 6:05 AM, Sven R. Kunze wrote:
>
> Python = English
>
As someone who writes English text and code using speech recognition, I 
can assure you that Python is not English. :-)

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#106038

On 30.03.2016 01:29, Eric S. Johansson wrote:
>
>
> On 3/29/2016 6:05 AM, Sven R. Kunze wrote:
>>
>> Python = English
>>
> As someone who writes English text and code using speech recognition, 
> I can assure you that Python is not English. :-)

:D Interesting. Never thought of how Python sounds when spoken.

Btw. the equivalence was more meant in the context of this thread. ;)

Best,
Sven

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#106042

On 30/03/2016 11:07, Sven R. Kunze wrote:
> On 30.03.2016 01:29, Eric S. Johansson wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 3/29/2016 6:05 AM, Sven R. Kunze wrote:
>>>
>>> Python = English
>>>
>> As someone who writes English text and code using speech recognition,
>> I can assure you that Python is not English. :-)
>
> :D Interesting. Never thought of how Python sounds when spoken.

Among other things, it becomes case insensitive...

-- 
Bartc

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#106054

On 30.03.2016 12:21, BartC wrote:
> On 30/03/2016 11:07, Sven R. Kunze wrote:
>> On 30.03.2016 01:29, Eric S. Johansson wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> On 3/29/2016 6:05 AM, Sven R. Kunze wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Python = English
>>>>
>>> As someone who writes English text and code using speech recognition,
>>> I can assure you that Python is not English. :-)
>>
>> :D Interesting. Never thought of how Python sounds when spoken.
>
> Among other things, it becomes case insensitive...
>

Now that you mention it... ;)

You do coding with speech recognition, too?

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#106065

On 3/30/2016 6:21 AM, BartC wrote:
> On 30/03/2016 11:07, Sven R. Kunze wrote:
>> On 30.03.2016 01:29, Eric S. Johansson wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> On 3/29/2016 6:05 AM, Sven R. Kunze wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Python = English
>>>>
>>> As someone who writes English text and code using speech recognition,
>>> I can assure you that Python is not English. :-)
>>
>> :D Interesting. Never thought of how Python sounds when spoken.
>
> Among other things, it becomes case insensitive...

Which makes complying with Pep 8 quite the bitch. Fortunately, I have a 
workaround (togglename) which lets me dictate what I need to say and 
preserve the spoken to code for mapping for later translation. (I.e. 
this thing is that thing mapping).

I need a co-conspirator with better hands than mine to get through the 
next stage which is some form of an AST smart editor that operates on 
larger chunks such as idioms or snippets in a speech friendly way. 
Ideally I'd like to see a bidirectional transform between the spoken 
form and a code form so that you can edit the spoken form and regenerate 
the code.

Just one example of what I am thinking of is when you say the string 
name of a previously defined class instance, you get a dialogue of all 
available methods and string names. When you are at the point of 
speaking the argument list, it gives you an abstract form of the 
argument list that is filled in with a minimal set of speech commands. 
I'm too lazy to create the full description right now what if anybody 
wants to know more, ask and I'll fill in the blanks.

It's important to remember though that using simple or accelerated 
methods for creating code is the easy part of the problem. It's editing 
existing code that is hard because you've lost a lot of the information 
necessary for speech user interface. This is where I think an AST based 
editor will come in quite handy. So far, I haven't found any.

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#106066

On Thu, Mar 31, 2016 at 12:06 AM, Eric S. Johansson <esj@harvee.org> wrote:
> I need a co-conspirator with better hands than mine to get through the next
> stage which is some form of an AST smart editor that operates on larger
> chunks such as idioms or snippets in a speech friendly way. Ideally I'd like
> to see a bidirectional transform between the spoken form and a code form so
> that you can edit the spoken form and regenerate the code.

Sounds to me like what you want is a variant language, a
speech-friendly programming language that compiles to Python. You
effectively store the spoken version, and translate it (one way) to
Python for execution.

ChrisA

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#106073

On 3/30/2016 9:09 AM, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 31, 2016 at 12:06 AM, Eric S. Johansson <esj@harvee.org> wrote:
>> I need a co-conspirator with better hands than mine to get through the next
>> stage which is some form of an AST smart editor that operates on larger
>> chunks such as idioms or snippets in a speech friendly way. Ideally I'd like
>> to see a bidirectional transform between the spoken form and a code form so
>> that you can edit the spoken form and regenerate the code.
> Sounds to me like what you want is a variant language, a
> speech-friendly programming language that compiles to Python. You
> effectively store the spoken version, and translate it (one way) to
> Python for execution.

That would be ideal but the problem comes with working with the team. I 
can't expect the other members the team to learn the system. I need to 
be able to work according to the teams rules (coding style etc.) for 
proper integration into an effort. Maybe I should be looking at machine 
learning for identifying patterns in the code and translation back to a 
spoken form.

It be interesting to see what people could come up with though for a 
speech friendly Python model. I've been wrestling with the problem so 
long, I probably have tons of blind spots.

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#106039

On 30/03/2016 11:07, Sven R. Kunze wrote:
> On 30.03.2016 01:29, Eric S. Johansson wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 3/29/2016 6:05 AM, Sven R. Kunze wrote:
>>>
>>> Python = English
>>>
>> As someone who writes English text and code using speech recognition,
>> I can assure you that Python is not English. :-)
> 
> :D Interesting. Never thought of how Python sounds when spoken.

Not that you quite meant this, but I'm always amused (and still a little
startled) when I listen to talks recorded from, say, PyCon and hear
people with American accents pronouncing Python with the stress on the
slightly longer second syllable.

(I don't know how other English-speaking groups say the word, but in
England the first syllable is stressed and the second is the
conventional short "uh" sound).

TJG

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#106114

Tim Golden wrote:

> (I don't know how other English-speaking groups say the word, but in
> England the first syllable is stressed and the second is the
> conventional short "uh" sound).

I can attest that New Zealand follows the UK on this. I was
surprised when I first heard an American pronounce it too.

The curious can hear the difference on these pages:

British:  http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/python
American: http://www.dictionary.com/browse/python?s=t

-- 
Greg

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#106172

> On Mar 30, 2016, at 2:36 PM, Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> wrote:
> 
> Tim Golden wrote:
> 
>> (I don't know how other English-speaking groups say the word, but in
>> England the first syllable is stressed and the second is the
>> conventional short "uh" sound).
> 
> I can attest that New Zealand follows the UK on this. I was
> surprised when I first heard an American pronounce it too.
> 
> The curious can hear the difference on these pages:
> 
> British:  http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/python
> American: http://www.dictionary.com/browse/python?s=t

That does it. If I ever make some sort of open source module for pythun/pythawn I’ll be sure to call it either tuhmayto/tomawto. Or maybe I’ll call it puhtayto/potawto.

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