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Groups > comp.lang.python > #5626 > unrolled thread

English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively

Started byXah Lee <xahlee@gmail.com>
First post2011-05-17 15:26 -0700
Last post2011-05-27 22:56 -0700
Articles 17 on this page of 117 — 30 participants

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  English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively Xah Lee <xahlee@gmail.com> - 2011-05-17 15:26 -0700
    Re: English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2011-05-17 17:20 -0600
      Re: English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively "Martin P. Hellwig" <martin.hellwig@gmail.com> - 2011-05-18 22:22 +0000
    Re: English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-18 09:42 +1000
    Re: English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively "Steven W. Orr" <steveo@syslang.net> - 2011-05-17 21:16 -0400
    Re: English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively Roland Hutchinson <my.spamtrap@verizon.net> - 2011-05-18 04:51 +0000
      Re: English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2011-05-18 07:19 +0200
        Re: English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively tar@sevak.isi.edu (Thomas A. Russ) - 2011-05-17 23:42 -0700
          Re: English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-18 09:26 +0100
            Re: English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively tar@sevak.isi.edu (Thomas A. Russ) - 2011-05-18 09:16 -0700
              Re: English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-18 19:11 +0100
                Re: English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively Raymond Wiker <raw@RAWMBP-2.local> - 2011-05-18 20:20 +0200
                  Re: English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-18 19:39 +0100
                    Re: English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively Raymond Wiker <raw@RAWMBP-2.local> - 2011-05-18 21:09 +0200
                      Re: English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-18 21:02 +0100
                        Re: English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively Raymond Wiker <raw@RAWMBP-2.local> - 2011-05-18 22:40 +0200
                          Re: English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-19 05:56 +0100
                    Re: English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively tar@sevak.isi.edu (Thomas A. Russ) - 2011-05-19 16:14 -0700
                  Re: English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-19 04:41 +1000
              Re: English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-19 04:12 +1000
              Re: English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2011-05-18 20:57 +0200
                Re: English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively tar@sevak.isi.edu (Thomas A. Russ) - 2011-05-19 16:17 -0700
                  Re: English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2011-05-20 02:38 +0200
                    Re: English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively Antti J Ylikoski <antti.ylikoski@tkk.fi> - 2011-05-20 12:00 +0300
          Re: English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively Peter Moylan <invalid@peter.pmoylan.org.invalid> - 2011-05-18 22:09 +1000
            Re: English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2011-05-18 06:14 -0700
              Re: English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively Peter Moylan <invalid@peter.pmoylan.org.invalid> - 2011-05-19 11:06 +1000
                Re: English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively Jonathan de Boyne Pollard <J.deBoynePollard-newsgroups@NTLWorld.COM> - 2011-05-21 09:32 +0100
                  Re: English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively Lars Enderin <lars.enderin@telia.com> - 2011-05-21 11:52 +0200
                    Re: English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively Lars Enderin <lars.enderin@telia.com> - 2011-05-21 11:54 +0200
                      Re: English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively Lars Enderin <lars.enderin@telia.com> - 2011-05-21 11:56 +0200
                Re: English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-21 15:34 +0000
        Re: English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively Roland Hutchinson <my.spamtrap@verizon.net> - 2011-05-20 06:50 +0000
      Re: English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2011-05-17 23:06 -0700
        Re: English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively Harrison Hill <harrishill@gmx.com> - 2011-05-17 23:50 -0700
          Re: English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2011-05-18 00:16 -0700
          Re: English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively Peter Moylan <invalid@peter.pmoylan.org.invalid> - 2011-05-18 22:19 +1000
            Re: English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> - 2011-05-29 13:16 -0700
              Re: English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively Peter Moylan <invalid@peter.pmoylan.org.invalid> - 2011-05-30 22:58 +1000
          Re: English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively see@sig.for.address (Victor Eijkhout) - 2011-05-18 12:59 -0500
            Re: English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively Roland Hutchinson <my.spamtrap@verizon.net> - 2011-05-20 06:54 +0000
              Re: English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-20 17:10 +1000
            Re: English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> - 2011-05-29 13:28 -0700
              Re: English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively Peter Moylan <invalid@peter.pmoylan.org.invalid> - 2011-05-30 23:02 +1000
            Re: English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> - 2011-05-29 13:28 -0700
          Re: English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively Glenn Knickerbocker <NotR@bestweb.net> - 2011-05-18 16:54 -0400
        Re: English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2011-05-18 00:58 -0600
          Re: English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2011-05-18 00:10 -0700
            Re: English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2011-05-18 08:32 -0600
              Re: English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2011-05-18 08:15 -0700
                Re: English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2011-05-18 09:43 -0600
    Re: English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-18 09:12 +0100
      Re: English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively Espen Vestre <espen@vestre.net> - 2011-05-18 10:20 +0200
      Re: English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively Rikishi42 <skunkworks@rikishi42.net> - 2011-05-19 23:21 +0200
        Re: English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-20 05:28 +0100
          Re: English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively Rikishi42 <skunkworks@rikishi42.net> - 2011-05-23 20:48 +0200
        Re: English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2011-05-19 22:13 -0700
          Re: English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-05-20 06:55 +0000
            Re: English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-20 09:48 +0100
              Re: English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2011-05-20 10:21 -0700
            Re: English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively Rikishi42 <skunkworks@rikishi42.net> - 2011-05-23 20:56 +0200
              Re: English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-05-24 00:18 +0000
                Re: English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively Rikishi42 <skunkworks@rikishi42.net> - 2011-05-25 00:06 +0200
                  Re: English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-25 10:40 +1000
                    Re: English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> - 2011-05-29 14:18 -0700
                    Re: English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> - 2011-05-29 14:19 -0700
                  Re: English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively Xah Lee <xahlee@gmail.com> - 2011-05-24 23:05 -0700
                  Re: English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively Thorsten Kampe <thorsten@thorstenkampe.de> - 2011-05-25 09:26 +0200
                    Re: English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively Xah Lee <xahlee@gmail.com> - 2011-05-25 00:51 -0700
                      Re: English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-25 17:59 +1000
                    Re: English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-05-25 21:59 +0000
                      Re: English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively Thorsten Kampe <thorsten@thorstenkampe.de> - 2011-05-26 10:48 +0200
                        Re: English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-05-26 10:06 +0000
                          Re: English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively Thorsten Kampe <thorsten@thorstenkampe.de> - 2011-05-26 12:46 +0200
                      Re: English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-27 09:31 -0500
                  Re: English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-05-25 22:58 +0000
                    Re: English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-26 14:00 +1000
                    Re: English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively Thorsten Kampe <thorsten@thorstenkampe.de> - 2011-05-26 10:59 +0200
                      Re: English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively "Charles" <C.Sanders@DeleteThis.Bom.GOV.AU> - 2011-05-26 20:58 +1000
                        Re: English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-26 21:12 +1000
                          Re: English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> - 2011-05-29 14:38 -0700
                            Re: English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-30 07:46 +1000
                              Re: English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> - 2011-05-29 15:54 -0700
                          Re: English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> - 2011-05-29 14:38 -0700
                        Re: English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively Thorsten Kampe <thorsten@thorstenkampe.de> - 2011-05-26 13:20 +0200
                          Re: English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-26 21:28 +1000
                          Re: English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively Xah Lee <xahlee@gmail.com> - 2011-05-26 14:51 -0700
                    Re: English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively Rikishi42 <skunkworks@rikishi42.net> - 2011-05-28 21:36 +0200
                      Re: English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-29 05:58 +1000
                        Re: English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-05-29 00:49 +0000
                        Re: English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively Rikishi42 <skunkworks@rikishi42.net> - 2011-05-30 23:04 +0200
                          Re: English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-05-30 23:17 +0000
                      Re: English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-29 07:28 +1000
                        Re: English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively Rikishi42 <skunkworks@rikishi42.net> - 2011-05-30 23:10 +0200
                  Re: English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> - 2011-05-29 13:58 -0700
                    Re: English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-30 07:27 +1000
            Re: English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> - 2011-05-29 13:39 -0700
    Re: English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively Mike Barnes <mikebarnes@bluebottle.com> - 2011-05-18 10:25 +0100
      Re: English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively Xah Lee <xahlee@gmail.com> - 2011-05-18 13:00 -0700
        Re: English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-18 21:19 +0100
          Re: English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively Lanarcam <lanarcam1@yahoo.fr> - 2011-05-18 22:33 +0200
        Re: English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively Mike Barnes <mikebarnes@bluebottle.com> - 2011-05-18 22:00 +0100
        Re: English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively Jonathan de Boyne Pollard <J.deBoynePollard-newsgroups@NTLWorld.COM> - 2011-05-20 08:10 +0100
          Re: English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively Xah Lee <xahlee@gmail.com> - 2011-05-22 13:22 -0700
            Re: English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-23 08:46 +1000
              Re: English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively Xah Lee <xahlee@gmail.com> - 2011-05-22 16:17 -0700
                Re: English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-23 09:32 +1000
                  Re: English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively Xah Lee <xahlee@gmail.com> - 2011-05-23 21:20 -0700
                    Re: English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-24 14:28 +1000
                      Re: English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively Xah Lee <xahlee@gmail.com> - 2011-05-24 10:40 -0700
                        Re: English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-25 08:14 +1000
                          Re: English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-05-25 10:15 +0000
        Re: English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> - 2011-05-29 13:32 -0700
      Re: English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively Jonathan de Boyne Pollard <J.deBoynePollard-newsgroups@NTLWorld.COM> - 2011-05-20 08:07 +0100
    Re: English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively John Nagle <nagle@animats.com> - 2011-05-18 13:07 -0700
    Re: English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively Jonathan de Boyne Pollard <J.deBoynePollard-newsgroups@NTLWorld.COM> - 2011-05-20 08:00 +0100
      Re: English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively David Schwartz <davids@webmaster.com> - 2011-05-27 22:56 -0700

Page 6 of 6 — ← Prev page 1 2 3 4 5 [6]

#5738

FromLanarcam <lanarcam1@yahoo.fr>
Date2011-05-18 22:33 +0200
Message-ID<4dd42cf8$0$26337$426a74cc@news.free.fr>
In reply to#5737
Hans Georg Schaathun écrivit:
> 
> :  also, in the rsync case: “This would recursively transfer all files
> :  from the directory … ”, what does the word “recursively” mean there?
> 
> Exactly the same as it does in «listing the directory recursively»
> or «deleting the directory recursively».

Traversing recursively a directory is more readily understandable when
there are sub-directories, the operation involves going down those
sub-directories and applying the same function ad infinitum.

Excuse my Latin.

> Again the distinction could be useful.  A non-recursive «rsync dir1
> dir2» probably isn't useful, but «rsync * dir2» might be.
>

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#5741

FromMike Barnes <mikebarnes@bluebottle.com>
Date2011-05-18 22:00 +0100
Message-ID<Ot5ZVUhmND1NFw0s@34klh41lk4h1lk34h3lk4h1k4.invalid>
In reply to#5735
Xah Lee <xahlee@gmail.com>:
>In the emacs case: “Recursive delete of xx? (y or n) ”, what could it
>possibly mean by the word “recursive” there? Like, it might delete the
>directory but not delete all files in it?

My understanding is that non-recursive means, I think there are no (non-
empty?) subdirectories, or I haven't given the matter any thought, so if
there are any such subdirectories, tell me and don't do anything.
Recursive means I want everything deleted regardless. BICBW.

-- 
Mike Barnes
Cheshire, England

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#5838

FromJonathan de Boyne Pollard <J.deBoynePollard-newsgroups@NTLWorld.COM>
Date2011-05-20 08:10 +0100
Message-ID<IU.D20110520.T071148.P3404.Q0@J.de.Boyne.Pollard.localhost>
In reply to#5735
> I think what happens is that the “recursive” has become a idiom associated with directory to such a degree that the unix people don't know what the fuck they are talking about. They just simply use the word to go with directory whever they mean the whole directory.
>
> In the emacs case: “Recursive delete of xx? (y or n) ”, what could it possibly mean by the word “recursive” there? Like, it might delete the
> directory but not delete all files in it?

It might *try* to delete the directory but not any of its contents, 
yes.   If such functionality is not offered, then putting the word in 
the user interface is redundant, and possibly not the best way to warn 
the user of potentially a massive loss of files and directories.  But 
the algorithm employed is indeed recursive.

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#6003

FromXah Lee <xahlee@gmail.com>
Date2011-05-22 13:22 -0700
Message-ID<9e1166f5-d239-4343-a0fc-7703e80b722b@r35g2000prj.googlegroups.com>
In reply to#5838
Xah wrote:
«In the emacs case: “Recursive delete of xx? (y or n) ”, what could it
possibly mean by the word “recursive” there? Like, it might delete the
directory but not delete all files in it?
»

Jonathan de Boyne Pollard wrote:
> It might *try* to delete the directory but not any of its contents,
> yes.

you mean theoretically you see a possibility if the dir is implement
as stilted as unix, but never in your life you find yourself might
want to do it?

 Xah

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#6016

FromChris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com>
Date2011-05-23 08:46 +1000
Message-ID<mailman.1935.1306104389.9059.python-list@python.org>
In reply to#6003
On Mon, May 23, 2011 at 6:22 AM, Xah Lee <xahlee@gmail.com> wrote:
> Xah wrote:
> «In the emacs case: “Recursive delete of xx? (y or n) ”, what could it
> possibly mean by the word “recursive” there? Like, it might delete the
> directory but not delete all files in it?
> »
>
> Jonathan de Boyne Pollard wrote:
>> It might *try* to delete the directory but not any of its contents,
>> yes.
>
> you mean theoretically you see a possibility if the dir is implement
> as stilted as unix, but never in your life you find yourself might
> want to do it?

There's a difference between working with a directory itself and
working with files inside it. Generally, if you copy or delete a
directory, you will want to recurse. But if you want to, for instance,
wipe out all files whose names end with a tilde, then you might want
to recurse and you might not. So it makes sense to offer the user a
choice, and if recursive action is the only one that makes sense, at
least acknowledge that the operation might take an arbitrarily long
time. (Ever done a recursive operation on / on a large file system?
Takes just a little bit longer than a non-recursive one under the same
circumstances...)

Chris Angelico

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#6022

FromXah Lee <xahlee@gmail.com>
Date2011-05-22 16:17 -0700
Message-ID<0d98ccf7-2f5c-479a-8450-3b956147cdb6@q14g2000prh.googlegroups.com>
In reply to#6016
On May 22, 3:46 pm, Chris Angelico <ros...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, May 23, 2011 at 6:22 AM, Xah Lee <xah...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Xah wrote:
> > «In the emacs case: “Recursive delete of xx? (y or n) ”, what could it
> > possibly mean by the word “recursive” there? Like, it might delete the
> > directory but not delete all files in it?
> > »
>
> > Jonathan de Boyne Pollard wrote:
> >> It might *try* to delete the directory but not any of its contents,
> >> yes.
>
> > you mean theoretically you see a possibility if the dir is implement
> > as stilted as unix, but never in your life you find yourself might
> > want to do it?
>
> There's a difference between working with a directory itself and
> working with files inside it. Generally, if you copy or delete a
> directory, you will want to recurse. But if you want to, for instance,
> wipe out all files whose names end with a tilde, then you might want
> to recurse and you might not. So it makes sense to offer the user a
> choice, and if recursive action is the only one that makes sense, at
> least acknowledge that the operation might take an arbitrarily long
> time. (Ever done a recursive operation on / on a large file system?
> Takes just a little bit longer than a non-recursive one under the same
> circumstances...)

the context is this: In emacs directory manager (aka dired), when you
call dired-do-delete on a directory, emacs prompts, this way:
“Recursive delete of xx? (y or n)”

 Xah

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#6025

FromChris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com>
Date2011-05-23 09:32 +1000
Message-ID<mailman.1942.1306107150.9059.python-list@python.org>
In reply to#6022
On Mon, May 23, 2011 at 9:17 AM, Xah Lee <xahlee@gmail.com> wrote:
> the context is this: In emacs directory manager (aka dired), when you
> call dired-do-delete on a directory, emacs prompts, this way:
> “Recursive delete of xx? (y or n)”

But in order to make your point (such as it is), you are ignoring the
fact that there are other uses of the term 'recurse' or 'recursive',
and consistency and clarity are important. I don't see emacs offering
me a chance to do a non-recursive delete; the only issue here seems to
be that it's explicit that it is going to destroy an entire branch of
the directory tree. If this is such a problem, grab the emacs sources
and change that string - it probably occurs in exactly one place in
the code. Voila! You now have The One True Perfect Emacs, the ultimate
text editor, because it no longer tells you that it's working
recursively.

*removes tongue from cheek after saying that last sentence*

Chris Angelico

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#6111

FromXah Lee <xahlee@gmail.com>
Date2011-05-23 21:20 -0700
Message-ID<c9db7765-7fdc-4568-a0d7-540869618ba3@q12g2000prb.googlegroups.com>
In reply to#6025
On May 22, 4:32 pm, Chris Angelico <ros...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, May 23, 2011 at 9:17 AM, Xah Lee <xah...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > the context is this: In emacs directory manager (aka dired), when you
> > call dired-do-delete on a directory, emacs prompts, this way:
> > “Recursive delete of xx? (y or n)”
>
> But in order to make your point (such as it is), you are ignoring the
> fact that there are other uses of the term 'recurse' or 'recursive',
> and consistency and clarity are important. I don't see emacs offering
> me a chance to do a non-recursive delete; the only issue here seems to
> be that it's explicit that it is going to destroy an entire branch of
> the directory tree. If this is such a problem, grab the emacs sources
> and change that string - it probably occurs in exactly one place in
> the code. Voila! You now have The One True Perfect Emacs, the ultimate
> text editor, because it no longer tells you that it's working
> recursively.
>
> *removes tongue from cheek after saying that last sentence*
>
> Chris Angelico

why don't you file a bug report? In GNU Emacs 23.2, it's under the
Help menu. I suppose it's the same in other emacs distro.

 Xah

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#6112

FromChris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com>
Date2011-05-24 14:28 +1000
Message-ID<mailman.1997.1306211302.9059.python-list@python.org>
In reply to#6111
On Tue, May 24, 2011 at 2:20 PM, Xah Lee <xahlee@gmail.com> wrote:
> why don't you file a bug report? In GNU Emacs 23.2, it's under the
> Help menu. I suppose it's the same in other emacs distro.
>

Because I do not consider its behaviour to be errant. And I suspect
its main developers won't either. That's why I suggested you grab the
sources and make The Perfect Emacs.

Chris Angelico

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#6164

FromXah Lee <xahlee@gmail.com>
Date2011-05-24 10:40 -0700
Message-ID<b64cba96-ad3c-4d16-b74a-0b84260eff09@k27g2000pri.googlegroups.com>
In reply to#6112
On May 23, 9:28 pm, Chris Angelico <ros...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, May 24, 2011 at 2:20 PM, Xah Lee <xah...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > why don't you file a bug report? In GNU Emacs 23.2, it's under the
> > Help menu. I suppose it's the same in other emacs distro.
>
> Because I do not consider its behaviour to be errant. And I suspect
> its main developers won't either. That's why I suggested you grab the
> sources and make The Perfect Emacs.

why don't you try http://ergoemacs.org/ ?

 Xah

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#6181

FromChris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com>
Date2011-05-25 08:14 +1000
Message-ID<mailman.2043.1306275270.9059.python-list@python.org>
In reply to#6164
On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 3:40 AM, Xah Lee <xahlee@gmail.com> wrote:
> On May 23, 9:28 pm, Chris Angelico <ros...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Because I do not consider its behaviour to be errant. And I suspect
>> its main developers won't either. That's why I suggested you grab the
>> sources and make The Perfect Emacs.
>
> why don't you try http://ergoemacs.org/ ?

You miss my point. I am not desiring of a different emacs; you were
the one complaining about its shortcomings.

Chris Angelico

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#6220

FromSteven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info>
Date2011-05-25 10:15 +0000
Message-ID<4ddcd6d8$0$29996$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
In reply to#6181
On Wed, 25 May 2011 08:14:27 +1000, Chris Angelico wrote:

> On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 3:40 AM, Xah Lee <xahlee@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On May 23, 9:28 pm, Chris Angelico <ros...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Because I do not consider its behaviour to be errant. And I suspect
>>> its main developers won't either. That's why I suggested you grab the
>>> sources and make The Perfect Emacs.
>>
>> why don't you try http://ergoemacs.org/ ?
> 
> You miss my point. I am not desiring of a different emacs; you were the
> one complaining about its shortcomings.

It's Xah Lee. Of course he misses your point. He refuses to stop spamming 
newsgroups even after being banned by his ISP, and he refuses to listen 
to any opinion that doesn't agree with his own. Everyone else is an idiot.



-- 
Steven

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#6573

Fromrantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com>
Date2011-05-29 13:32 -0700
Message-ID<0322ba69-f7ec-4c62-ab68-deaeadbd7a9a@x1g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>
In reply to#5735
On May 18, 3:00 pm, Xah Lee <xah...@gmail.com> wrote:

> In the emacs case: “Recursive delete of xx? (y or n) ”, what could it
> possibly mean by the word “recursive” there? Like, it might delete the
> directory but not delete all files in it?

Actually i think this case is more for "scare factor" than anything.
As in... Do you really want to destroy all these files FOREVER AND
EVER or did your mouse finger slip... again?

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#5831

FromJonathan de Boyne Pollard <J.deBoynePollard-newsgroups@NTLWorld.COM>
Date2011-05-20 08:07 +0100
Message-ID<IU.D20110520.T070810.P3395.Q0@J.de.Boyne.Pollard.localhost>
In reply to#5677
> AFAICS what emacs calls "recursive delete" is what the ordinary person 
> would simply call "delete". Presumably the non-recursive delete is 
> called simply "delete" but is actually something more complicated than 
> delete, and you're supposed to know what that is.
>
The "non-recursive delete" would be simply calling the rmdir() system 
call, which of course fails if the directory is non-empty.  One has to 
empty the directory of its contents, if any, first.  That, of course, 
involves potentially recursively removing any subdirectories, in exactly 
the same way.

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#5736

FromJohn Nagle <nagle@animats.com>
Date2011-05-18 13:07 -0700
Message-ID<4dd4274a$0$1843$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net>
In reply to#5626
On 5/17/2011 3:26 PM, Xah Lee wrote:
> might be of interest.
>
> 〈English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively〉
> http://xahlee.org/comp/idiom_directory_recursively.html
>
> ------------------------------------------
> English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively
>
> Xah Lee, 2011-05-17
>
> Today, let's discuss something in the category of lingustics.
>
> You know how in unix tools, when you want to delete the whole
> directory and all sub-directories and files in it, it's referred as
> “recursive”?

     The proper terminology is "subtree", "subfolder", or "subdirectory".

					John Nagle

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#5829

FromJonathan de Boyne Pollard <J.deBoynePollard-newsgroups@NTLWorld.COM>
Date2011-05-20 08:00 +0100
Message-ID<IU.D20110520.T070201.P3373.Q0@J.de.Boyne.Pollard.localhost>
In reply to#5626
> 〈English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively〉
> http://xahlee.org/comp/idiom_directory_recursively.html
>
> ------------------------------------------
> English Idiom in Unix: Directory Recursively
>
> Xah Lee, 2011-05-17
>
> Today, let's discuss something in the category of lingustics.
>
> You know how in unix tools, when you want to delete the whole
> directory and all sub-directories and files in it, it's referred as
> “recursive”?
>
> [...]
>
> Though, if you think about it, it's not exactly a correct description.
> “Recursive”, or “recursion”, refers to a particular type of algorithm, 
> [...]
Indeed. And the algorithms that are employed to perform the operations 
so described are recursive.

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#6453

FromDavid Schwartz <davids@webmaster.com>
Date2011-05-27 22:56 -0700
Message-ID<ec88a850-9cc6-41ca-a438-6fb7c8529624@d26g2000prn.googlegroups.com>
In reply to#5829
On May 20, 12:00 am, Jonathan de Boyne Pollard <J.deBoynePollard-
newsgro...@NTLWorld.COM> wrote:

> Indeed. And the algorithms that are employed to perform the operations
> so described are recursive.

Actually, they almost never are. Iterative algorithms are almost
always used to avoid a stack explosion. However, the terminology is
still correct. When you are asked if the operation should be performed
recursively, it is asking whether you want the same effect you would
get if a recursive algorithm was used.

Essentially, there is an implied 'as if' rule. The user doesn't care
how the program accomplishes the task, the user just needs to specify
what task the program should accomplish. This is common throughout the
discipline of programming. (Most standards have an explicit 'as if'
rule that says that when the standard specifies X, they don't
literally mean that X must happen. They mean the behavior must be
indistinguishable from X happening.)

DS

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