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Groups > comp.lang.python > #30043 > unrolled thread
| Started by | Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2012-09-25 09:15 +0100 |
| Last post | 2012-09-27 17:59 -0700 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 135 — 30 participants |
Back to article view | Back to comp.lang.python
Article on the future of Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-09-25 09:15 +0100
Re: Article on the future of Python Kevin Walzer <kw@codebykevin.com> - 2012-09-25 09:26 -0400
Re: Article on the future of Python Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2012-09-25 09:44 -0400
Re: Article on the future of Python Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-09-25 15:35 +0000
Re: Article on the future of Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-09-26 01:48 +1000
Re: Article on the future of Python Ramchandra Apte <maniandram01@gmail.com> - 2012-09-26 02:28 -0700
Re: Article on the future of Python Dwight Hutto <dwightdhutto@gmail.com> - 2012-09-26 05:39 -0400
Re: Article on the future of Python Kevin Walzer <kw@codebykevin.com> - 2012-09-26 09:30 -0400
Re: Article on the future of Python Matej Cepl <mcepl@redhat.com> - 2012-09-27 00:44 +0200
Re: Article on the future of Python Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-09-27 00:44 +0000
Re: Article on the future of Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-09-27 15:37 +1000
Re: Article on the future of Python Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-09-27 06:01 +0000
Re: Article on the future of Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-09-27 16:08 +1000
Re: Article on the future of Python Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2012-09-27 13:59 +0000
Re: Article on the future of Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-09-28 00:32 +1000
Re: Article on the future of Python Walter Hurry <walterhurry@lavabit.com> - 2012-09-28 01:22 +0000
Re: Article on the future of Python Jason Friedman <jason@powerpull.net> - 2012-09-27 21:05 -0600
Re: Article on the future of Python "Littlefield, Tyler" <tyler@tysdomain.com> - 2012-09-27 21:14 -0600
Re: Article on the future of Python Wayne Werner <wayne@waynewerner.com> - 2012-09-27 22:37 -0500
Re: Article on the future of Python Greg Donald <gdonald@gmail.com> - 2012-09-27 22:50 -0500
Re: Article on the future of Python Greg Donald <gdonald@gmail.com> - 2012-09-27 23:12 -0500
Re: Article on the future of Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-09-28 14:37 +1000
Re: Article on the future of Python rurpy@yahoo.com - 2012-09-28 08:52 -0700
Re: Article on the future of Python rurpy@yahoo.com - 2012-09-28 08:52 -0700
Re: Article on the future of Python Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2012-09-28 10:31 -0400
Re: Article on the future of Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-09-29 00:58 +1000
Re: Article on the future of Python Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2012-09-28 09:14 -0600
Re: Article on the future of Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-09-29 01:20 +1000
Re: Article on the future of Python Serhiy Storchaka <storchaka@gmail.com> - 2012-09-27 12:20 +0300
Re: Article on the future of Python Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2012-09-25 12:13 -0400
Re: Article on the future of Python Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-09-25 10:27 -0700
Re: Article on the future of Python "Martin P. Hellwig" <martin.hellwig@gmail.com> - 2012-09-25 06:56 -0700
Re: Article on the future of Python "Martin P. Hellwig" <martin.hellwig@gmail.com> - 2012-09-25 06:56 -0700
Re: Article on the future of Python Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2012-09-25 18:25 +0000
Re: Article on the future of Python 88888 Dihedral <dihedral88888@googlemail.com> - 2012-09-25 16:34 -0700
Re: Article on the future of Python wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2012-09-25 23:35 -0700
Re: Article on the future of Python Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-09-26 07:23 +0000
Re: Article on the future of Python wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2012-09-26 02:31 -0700
Re: Article on the future of Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-09-26 19:55 +1000
Re: Article on the future of Python wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2012-09-26 07:19 -0700
Re: Article on the future of Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-09-27 00:24 +1000
Re: Article on the future of Python wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2012-09-26 07:50 -0700
Re: Article on the future of Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-09-27 00:56 +1000
Re: Article on the future of Python wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2012-09-26 08:17 -0700
Re: Article on the future of Python wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2012-09-26 08:17 -0700
Re: Article on the future of Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-09-26 16:08 +0100
Re: Article on the future of Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-09-27 01:18 +1000
Re: Article on the future of Python wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2012-09-26 08:45 -0700
Re: Article on the future of Python wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2012-09-26 08:45 -0700
Re: Article on the future of Python Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-09-27 09:33 +0000
Re: Article on the future of Python Alex Strickland <sscc@mweb.co.za> - 2012-09-27 12:43 +0200
Re: Article on the future of Python Serhiy Storchaka <storchaka@gmail.com> - 2012-09-27 15:46 +0300
Re: Article on the future of Python Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2012-09-27 09:06 -0600
Re: Article on the future of Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-09-27 17:03 +0100
Re: Article on the future of Python Serhiy Storchaka <storchaka@gmail.com> - 2012-09-27 20:17 +0300
Re: Article on the future of Python wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2012-09-27 12:09 -0700
Re: Article on the future of Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-09-27 21:16 +0100
Re: Article on the future of Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-09-28 08:00 +1000
Re: Article on the future of Python wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2012-09-27 12:09 -0700
Re: Article on the future of Python Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2012-09-27 15:08 -0400
Re: Article on the future of Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-09-28 10:16 +0100
Re: Article on the future of Python wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2012-09-26 07:50 -0700
Re: Article on the future of Python wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2012-09-26 07:19 -0700
Re: Article on the future of Python Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-09-27 00:36 +0000
Re: Article on the future of Python Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-09-26 09:52 -0700
Re: Article on the future of Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-09-27 03:04 +1000
Re: Article on the future of Python Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-09-26 10:32 -0700
Re: Article on the future of Python wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2012-09-26 11:35 -0700
Re: Article on the future of Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-09-26 14:21 +0100
Re: Article on the future of Python Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2012-09-26 09:53 -0600
Re: Article on the future of Python wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2012-09-26 09:18 -0700
Re: Article on the future of Python wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2012-09-26 09:18 -0700
Re: Article on the future of Python Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2012-09-26 00:17 -0700
Re: Article on the future of Python Dwight Hutto <dwightdhutto@gmail.com> - 2012-09-26 03:39 -0400
Re: Article on the future of Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-09-26 17:44 +1000
Re: Article on the future of Python Dwight Hutto <dwightdhutto@gmail.com> - 2012-09-26 04:11 -0400
Re: Article on the future of Python Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2012-09-26 04:13 -0400
Re: Article on the future of Python wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2012-09-26 05:19 -0700
Re: Article on the future of Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-09-26 23:43 +1000
Re: Article on the future of Python Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2012-09-26 09:08 -0700
Re: Article on the future of Python Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2012-09-26 19:24 -0400
Re: Article on the future of Python wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2012-09-26 05:19 -0700
Re: Article on the future of Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-09-26 09:34 +0100
Re: Article on the future of Python wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2012-09-26 05:17 -0700
Re: Article on the future of Python alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2012-09-26 17:14 -0700
Re: Article on the future of Python Walter Hurry <walterhurry@lavabit.com> - 2012-09-27 01:37 +0000
Re: Article on the future of Python wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2012-09-26 05:17 -0700
Re: Article on the future of Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-09-26 09:37 +0100
Re: Article on the future of Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-09-26 18:44 +1000
Re: Article on the future of Python Dwight Hutto <dwightdhutto@gmail.com> - 2012-09-26 04:45 -0400
Re: Article on the future of Python Dwight Hutto <dwightdhutto@gmail.com> - 2012-09-26 04:47 -0400
Re: Article on the future of Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-09-26 10:01 +0100
Re: Article on the future of Python Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-09-27 00:40 +0000
Re: Article on the future of Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-09-27 02:10 +0100
Re: Article on the future of Python Dwight Hutto <dwightdhutto@gmail.com> - 2012-09-26 05:09 -0400
Re: Article on the future of Python "Littlefield, Tyler" <tyler@tysdomain.com> - 2012-09-26 07:31 -0600
Re: Article on the future of Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-09-26 14:43 +0100
Re: Article on the future of Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-09-26 23:51 +1000
Re: Article on the future of Python Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2012-09-26 09:05 -0700
Re: Article on the future of Python Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2012-09-26 16:27 -0400
Re: Article on the future of Python alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2012-09-26 18:38 -0700
Re: Fwd: Re: Article on the future of Python Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2012-09-26 19:29 -0400
Re: Fwd: Re: Article on the future of Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-09-27 09:42 +1000
Re: Article on the future of Python Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-09-26 00:54 +0000
Re: Article on the future of Python Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-09-25 18:04 -0700
Re: Article on the future of Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-09-26 14:10 +1000
Re: Article on the future of Python Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-09-26 05:16 +0000
Re: Article on the future of Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-09-26 16:02 +1000
Re: Article on the future of Python Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-09-25 23:09 -0700
Re: Article on the future of Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-09-26 09:32 +0100
Re: Article on the future of Python Hannu Krosing <hannu@krosing.net> - 2012-09-26 12:01 +0200
Re: Article on the future of Python Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2012-09-26 09:01 -0400
Re: Article on the future of Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-09-26 14:28 +0100
Re: Article on the future of Python Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2012-09-26 13:22 -0400
Re: Article on the future of Python Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-09-27 06:13 +0000
Re: Article on the future of Python Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierreda@gmail.com> - 2012-09-27 08:11 -0400
Re: Article on the future of Python Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-09-27 14:25 +0000
Re: Article on the future of Python Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierreda@gmail.com> - 2012-09-27 12:16 -0400
Re: Article on the future of Python alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2012-09-27 17:59 -0700
Re: Article on the future of Python Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierreda@gmail.com> - 2012-09-28 14:50 -0400
Re: Article on the future of Python Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-09-29 03:07 +0000
Re: Article on the future of Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-09-27 17:45 +0100
Re: Article on the future of Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-09-28 02:49 +1000
Re: Article on the future of Python Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierreda@gmail.com> - 2012-09-27 12:50 -0400
Re: Article on the future of Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-09-27 17:58 +0100
Re: Article on the future of Python Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2012-09-27 09:53 -0700
Re: Article on the future of Python Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2012-09-27 15:32 -0400
Re: Article on the future of Python Bob Martin <bob.martin@excite.com> - 2012-09-28 08:06 +0100
Re: Article on the future of Python Dwight Hutto <dwightdhutto@gmail.com> - 2012-09-28 03:22 -0400
Re: Article on the future of Python rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2012-09-28 05:08 -0700
Re: Article on the future of Python Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-09-28 12:54 +0000
Re: Article on the future of Python rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2012-09-28 06:14 -0700
Re: Article on the future of Python Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-09-28 16:33 +0000
Re: Article on the future of Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-09-27 17:47 +0100
Re: Article on the future of Python alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2012-09-27 17:59 -0700
Page 2 of 7 — ← Prev page 1 [2] 3 4 5 6 7 Next page →
| From | Greg Donald <gdonald@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-09-27 23:12 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <mailman.1532.1348805570.27098.python-list@python.org> |
| In reply to | #30345 |
On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 10:37 PM, Wayne Werner <wayne@waynewerner.com> wrote: > the only advice I can give on that is > just learn to use both. I find there's little to lose in having experience with both. Most every good web framework out there supports lots of different databases through generic ORM layers.. so flipping back and forth to see which database is better for your particular app and workload is trivial. -- Greg Donald
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| From | Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-09-28 14:37 +1000 |
| Message-ID | <mailman.1533.1348807044.27098.python-list@python.org> |
| In reply to | #30345 |
On Fri, Sep 28, 2012 at 2:12 PM, Greg Donald <gdonald@gmail.com> wrote: > On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 10:37 PM, Wayne Werner <wayne@waynewerner.com> wrote: >> the only advice I can give on that is >> just learn to use both. > > I find there's little to lose in having experience with both. > > Most every good web framework out there supports lots of different > databases through generic ORM layers.. so flipping back and forth to > see which database is better for your particular app and workload is > trivial. Learning both is good, if for no reason than that learning more tends to be advantageous. As Greg said in his other post, PGSQL is a completely open source project. That's a significant point imho. Other points to consider: * MySQL is designed for dynamic web sites, with lots of reading and not too much writing. Its row and table locking system is pretty rudimentary, and it's quite easy for performance to suffer really badly if you don't think about it. But if your needs are simple, MySQL is probably enough. PostgreSQL uses MVCC to avoid locks in many cases. You can happily read from a row while it's being updated; you'll be unaware of the update until it's committed. * Postgres has solid support for advanced features like replication. I don't know how good MySQL's replication is, never tried it. Can't say. This might be completely insignificant. * The default MySQL engine, MyISAM, doesn't do proper transaction logging etc. InnoDB is better for this, but the internal tables (where your database *structure* is maintained) are MyISAM. This imposes a definite risk. * Both engines have good support in popular languages, including (dragging this back on topic, kicking and screaming) Python. For further details, poke around on the web; I'm sure you'll find plenty of good blog posts etc. But as for me and my house, we will have Postgres serve us. ChrisA
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| From | rurpy@yahoo.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-09-28 08:52 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <7bac7f07-8f54-4e53-aa59-3aae472e6c23@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #30354 |
On 09/27/2012 10:37 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:>[...] > * MySQL is designed for dynamic web sites, with lots of reading and > not too much writing. Its row and table locking system is pretty > rudimentary, and it's quite easy for performance to suffer really > badly if you don't think about it. But if your needs are simple, MySQL > is probably enough. PostgreSQL uses MVCC to avoid locks in many cases. > You can happily read from a row while it's being updated; you'll be > unaware of the update until it's committed. MVCC comes with a cost though, as anyone who has ever needed to do a SELECT COUNT(*) on a large Postgresql table knows. >[...] > * Both engines have good support in popular languages, including > (dragging this back on topic, kicking and screaming) Python. Maybe things are different now but a few years ago I was trying to choose between Postgresql and Mysql about the time Python 2.4 (I think) was released. After waiting for over a year for the Python mysql dbi module to be released for the then current version of Python (I needed a binary for Windows) I finally gave up and decided to go with Postgresql (the psycopg2 module was available a very short time after the new Python was.)
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| From | rurpy@yahoo.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-09-28 08:52 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <mailman.1566.1348847568.27098.python-list@python.org> |
| In reply to | #30354 |
On 09/27/2012 10:37 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:>[...] > * MySQL is designed for dynamic web sites, with lots of reading and > not too much writing. Its row and table locking system is pretty > rudimentary, and it's quite easy for performance to suffer really > badly if you don't think about it. But if your needs are simple, MySQL > is probably enough. PostgreSQL uses MVCC to avoid locks in many cases. > You can happily read from a row while it's being updated; you'll be > unaware of the update until it's committed. MVCC comes with a cost though, as anyone who has ever needed to do a SELECT COUNT(*) on a large Postgresql table knows. >[...] > * Both engines have good support in popular languages, including > (dragging this back on topic, kicking and screaming) Python. Maybe things are different now but a few years ago I was trying to choose between Postgresql and Mysql about the time Python 2.4 (I think) was released. After waiting for over a year for the Python mysql dbi module to be released for the then current version of Python (I needed a binary for Windows) I finally gave up and decided to go with Postgresql (the psycopg2 module was available a very short time after the new Python was.)
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| From | Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-09-28 10:31 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <mailman.1553.1348842710.27098.python-list@python.org> |
| In reply to | #30345 |
On Fri, 28 Sep 2012 14:37:21 +1000, Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com>
declaimed the following in gmane.comp.python.general:
> For further details, poke around on the web; I'm sure you'll find
> plenty of good blog posts etc. But as for me and my house, we will
> have Postgres serve us.
>
Please, at least use the proper name... "Postgres" is a non-SQL
database inspired by Ingres. "PostgreSQL" is Postgres with an SQL query
engine.
On my side... I have MySQL running on my desktop. When I started,
MySQL had a native build that would run on Win9X; PostgreSQL at the time
required installing a Cygwin environment.
MySQL v5 has improved a lot from those days (v3)... It now supports
stored procedures, triggers, a form of views, and prepared statements
(though MySQLdb is still pre v5 and sends completely formatted string
queries). They've even added GIS capabilities. (And then there is the
"drop-in" replacement for MySQL -- MariaDB:
http://kb.askmonty.org/en/mariadb-vs-mysql-compatibility/ )
Then again, I've got too many database engines on this desktop:
SQLite3, Access/JET, MSDE/SQL Server, Firebird...
--
Wulfraed Dennis Lee Bieber AF6VN
wlfraed@ix.netcom.com HTTP://wlfraed.home.netcom.com/
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| From | Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-09-29 00:58 +1000 |
| Message-ID | <mailman.1556.1348844334.27098.python-list@python.org> |
| In reply to | #30345 |
On Sat, Sep 29, 2012 at 12:31 AM, Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> wrote: > On Fri, 28 Sep 2012 14:37:21 +1000, Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> > declaimed the following in gmane.comp.python.general: > > >> For further details, poke around on the web; I'm sure you'll find >> plenty of good blog posts etc. But as for me and my house, we will >> have Postgres serve us. >> > > Please, at least use the proper name... "Postgres" is a non-SQL > database inspired by Ingres. "PostgreSQL" is Postgres with an SQL query > engine. http://www.postgresql.org/docs/9.1/static/history.html "Many people continue to refer to PostgreSQL as "Postgres" (now rarely in all capital letters) because of tradition or because it is easier to pronounce. This usage is widely accepted as a nickname or alias." There's lots of internal documentation that references "Postgres". I don't see it as that big a deal. > On my side... I have MySQL running on my desktop. When I started, > MySQL had a native build that would run on Win9X; PostgreSQL at the time > required installing a Cygwin environment. > > MySQL v5 has improved a lot from those days (v3)... It now supports > stored procedures, triggers, a form of views, and prepared statements > (though MySQLdb is still pre v5 and sends completely formatted string > queries). They've even added GIS capabilities. (And then there is the > "drop-in" replacement for MySQL -- MariaDB: > http://kb.askmonty.org/en/mariadb-vs-mysql-compatibility/ ) Yes, MySQL has definitely improved. There was a time when its unreliability applied to all your data too, but now you can just click in InnoDB and have mostly-real transaction support etc. But there's still a lot of work that by requirement happens outside of transactions - MySQL doesn't let you roll back DDL, for instance. ChrisA
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| From | Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-09-28 09:14 -0600 |
| Message-ID | <mailman.1559.1348845328.27098.python-list@python.org> |
| In reply to | #30345 |
On Fri, Sep 28, 2012 at 8:58 AM, Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> wrote: > Yes, MySQL has definitely improved. There was a time when its > unreliability applied to all your data too, but now you can just click > in InnoDB and have mostly-real transaction support etc. But there's > still a lot of work that by requirement happens outside of > transactions - MySQL doesn't let you roll back DDL, for instance. Neither does Oracle, for that matter. I don't really see any reason why DDL *should* be transactional in nature. If your web app is issuing DDL statements, then you're probably doing something wrong.
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| From | Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-09-29 01:20 +1000 |
| Message-ID | <mailman.1562.1348845647.27098.python-list@python.org> |
| In reply to | #30345 |
On Sat, Sep 29, 2012 at 1:14 AM, Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> wrote: > On Fri, Sep 28, 2012 at 8:58 AM, Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> wrote: >> Yes, MySQL has definitely improved. There was a time when its >> unreliability applied to all your data too, but now you can just click >> in InnoDB and have mostly-real transaction support etc. But there's >> still a lot of work that by requirement happens outside of >> transactions - MySQL doesn't let you roll back DDL, for instance. > > Neither does Oracle, for that matter. I don't really see any reason > why DDL *should* be transactional in nature. If your web app is > issuing DDL statements, then you're probably doing something wrong. I have an auto-update script that ensures that our database is at the correct patchlevel. It's fairly straight-forward: switch on patchlevel, execute the statements required to get up to the next one, at the bottom record the patchlevel in the database. (This relieves us of issues of schema changes done in development that didn't get pushed to production, for instance; our source code repository has _everything_ needed.) If anything goes wrong, Postgres will roll the transaction back. It doesn't matter if the first statement added a column to a table and the second does an INSERT... SELECT; they both get rolled back (as would any change to the patchlevel field, though that happens at the very end so it's not significant here). I can guarantee that the patch has either been completely applied or completely rolled back - exactly what transactions are for. ChrisA
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| From | Serhiy Storchaka <storchaka@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-09-27 12:20 +0300 |
| Message-ID | <mailman.1481.1348737672.27098.python-list@python.org> |
| In reply to | #30273 |
On 27.09.12 09:08, Chris Angelico wrote: > LAMP usually means PHP these days. There's a lot of that around. And Cyrillic Р means Ruby. :-P
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| From | Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-09-25 12:13 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <mailman.1352.1348589636.27098.python-list@python.org> |
| In reply to | #30078 |
On Tue, 25 Sep 2012 09:26:19 -0400, Kevin Walzer <kw@codebykevin.com>
declaimed the following in gmane.comp.python.general:
> I can understand loving the language and wanting to work just in the
> language, but it's another thing entirely to call Python the One
> Language to Rule Them All. (That's C, because all other languages are
> implemented in it. :-) )
>
Only with the demise of DEC VMS... As I recall, most of the VMS
system, including compilers and what-not, were written in BLISS
--
Wulfraed Dennis Lee Bieber AF6VN
wlfraed@ix.netcom.com HTTP://wlfraed.home.netcom.com/
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| From | Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-09-25 10:27 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <7xa9wef1y0.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> |
| In reply to | #30078 |
Kevin Walzer <kw@codebykevin.com> writes: > language, but it's another thing entirely to call Python the One > Language to Rule Them All. (That's C, because all other languages are > implemented in it. :-) ) I got into a discussion about that in another newsgroup and noticed that C seems to have been a 20th-century language that is still used for maintaining old programs and in the embedded niche, but that very few languages or compilers seem to have been newly implemented in C in the current century. The main counterexample I was able to find was LuaJIT.
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| From | "Martin P. Hellwig" <martin.hellwig@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-09-25 06:56 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <9e5df5d3-514b-4257-b9a8-473379dc542f@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #30043 |
On Tuesday, 25 September 2012 09:14:27 UTC+1, Mark Lawrence wrote: > Hi all, > > I though this might be of interest. > http://www.ironfroggy.com/software/i-am-worried-about-the-future-of-python > -- > > Cheers. > Mark Lawrence. I glanced over the article but it seems to me another 'I am afraid this is not the silver bullet I wanted it to be' article without actually going into the need of a silver bullet or whether the concept of a silver bullet is sound at all. -- mph
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| From | "Martin P. Hellwig" <martin.hellwig@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-09-25 06:56 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <mailman.1333.1348581385.27098.python-list@python.org> |
| In reply to | #30043 |
On Tuesday, 25 September 2012 09:14:27 UTC+1, Mark Lawrence wrote: > Hi all, > > I though this might be of interest. > http://www.ironfroggy.com/software/i-am-worried-about-the-future-of-python > -- > > Cheers. > Mark Lawrence. I glanced over the article but it seems to me another 'I am afraid this is not the silver bullet I wanted it to be' article without actually going into the need of a silver bullet or whether the concept of a silver bullet is sound at all. -- mph
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| From | Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-09-25 18:25 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <k3ssuq$78m$1@reader1.panix.com> |
| In reply to | #30083 |
On 2012-09-25, Martin P. Hellwig <martin.hellwig@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tuesday, 25 September 2012 09:14:27 UTC+1, Mark Lawrence wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I though this might be of interest.
>> http://www.ironfroggy.com/software/i-am-worried-about-the-future-of-python
> I glanced over the article but it seems to me another 'I am afraid
> this is not the silver bullet I wanted it to be' article
Strange. I didn't get that _at_all_ from the article.
To me it was expressing concern about what happens when the range of
"niches" where Python is a good solution falls below a certain
critical mass -- will the "Python Community" start to stagnate because
it isn't attacting new developers in the quantity or diversity that it
used to...
--
Grant Edwards grant.b.edwards Yow! Alright, you!!
at Imitate a WOUNDED SEAL
gmail.com pleading for a PARKING
SPACE!!
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| From | 88888 Dihedral <dihedral88888@googlemail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-09-25 16:34 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <cc2771fd-0b2b-4721-9ae0-657bc722ebad@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #30117 |
Grant Edwards於 2012年9月26日星期三UTC+8上午2時25分31秒寫道： > On 2012-09-25, Martin P. Hellwig <martin.hellwig@gmail.com> wrote: > > > On Tuesday, 25 September 2012 09:14:27 UTC+1, Mark Lawrence wrote: > > >> Hi all, > > >> > > >> I though this might be of interest. > > >> http://www.ironfroggy.com/software/i-am-worried-about-the-future-of-python > > > > > I glanced over the article but it seems to me another 'I am afraid > > > this is not the silver bullet I wanted it to be' article > > > > Strange. I didn't get that _at_all_ from the article. > > > > To me it was expressing concern about what happens when the range of > > "niches" where Python is a good solution falls below a certain > > critical mass -- will the "Python Community" start to stagnate because > > it isn't attacting new developers in the quantity or diversity that it > > used to... > > > > -- > > Grant Edwards grant.b.edwards Yow! Alright, you!! > > at Imitate a WOUNDED SEAL > > gmail.com pleading for a PARKING > > SPACE!! I don't think so in 201X. The uni-code support for users and clients all over the world should not be taxed by WINTEL only in multi-language support under the OS. I am glad to see a lot smart phones or pads are fostering applications in various languages to help the IT industry keeping growing and expanding to those regeions covered by wirelees digital communications with devices priced in the range 200 to 12000 usd.
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| From | wxjmfauth@gmail.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-09-25 23:35 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <ef917cfd-43a5-4620-a9b4-1c6934624bc4@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #30134 |
Le mercredi 26 septembre 2012 01:34:01 UTC+2, 88888 Dihedral a écrit : > Grant Edwards於 2012年9月26日星期三UTC+8上午2時25分31秒寫道： > > > On 2012-09-25, Martin P. Hellwig <martin.hellwig@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > On Tuesday, 25 September 2012 09:14:27 UTC+1, Mark Lawrence wrote: > > > > > > >> Hi all, > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> I though this might be of interest. > > > > > > >> http://www.ironfroggy.com/software/i-am-worried-about-the-future-of-python > > > > > > > > > > > > > I glanced over the article but it seems to me another 'I am afraid > > > > > > > this is not the silver bullet I wanted it to be' article > > > > > > > > > > > > Strange. I didn't get that _at_all_ from the article. > > > > > > > > > > > > To me it was expressing concern about what happens when the range of > > > > > > "niches" where Python is a good solution falls below a certain > > > > > > critical mass -- will the "Python Community" start to stagnate because > > > > > > it isn't attacting new developers in the quantity or diversity that it > > > > > > used to... > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Grant Edwards grant.b.edwards Yow! Alright, you!! > > > > > > at Imitate a WOUNDED SEAL > > > > > > gmail.com pleading for a PARKING > > > > > > SPACE!! > > I don't think so in 201X. The uni-code support for users and clients > > all over the world should not be taxed by WINTEL only in > > multi-language support under the OS. I am glad to see a lot smart phones > > or pads are fostering applications in various languages to help the IT > > industry keeping growing and expanding to those regeions covered > > by wirelees digital communications with devices priced in the range > > 200 to 12000 usd. Py 3.3 succeeded to somehow kill unicode and it has been transformed into an "American" product for "American" users. --- From nnn: > ...schools moving towards Python... I do not know what "schools" covers. Interestingly (and unfortunately), it just becomes a no-tool for those who wish to teach Unicode. Or, in one sense, it just become one! PS I spent my last days with XeTeX and unicode-math. jmf
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| From | Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-09-26 07:23 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <5062ad83$0$29997$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com> |
| In reply to | #30146 |
On Tue, 25 Sep 2012 23:35:39 -0700, wxjmfauth wrote: > Py 3.3 succeeded to somehow kill unicode and it has been transformed > into an "American" product for "American" users. For the first time in Python's history, Python on 32-bit systems handles strings containing Supplementary Multilingual Plane characters correctly, and it does so without doubling or quadrupling the amount of memory every single string takes up. Strings are ubiquitous in Python -- every module, every variable, every function, every class is associated with at least one and often many strings, and they are nearly all ASCII strings. The overhead of using four bytes instead of one for every string is considerable. Python finally has correct unicode handling for characters beyond the BMP, and it does so with more efficient strings that potentially use as little as one quarter of the memory that they otherwise would use, at the cost of a small slowdown in the artificial and unrealistic case that you repeatedly create millions of strings and then just throw them away immediately. Most realistic cases of string handling are unchanged in speed, either trivially faster or trivially slower. The real saving is in memory. According to wxjmfauth, this has "killed" unicode. Judge for yourself his credibility. The best I can determine, he believes this because Americans aren't made to suffer for using mostly ASCII strings. -- Steven
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| From | wxjmfauth@gmail.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-09-26 02:31 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <693ac61b-b1d3-4192-9e50-5166fd119278@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #30150 |
Le mercredi 26 septembre 2012 09:23:47 UTC+2, Steven D'Aprano a écrit : > On Tue, 25 Sep 2012 23:35:39 -0700, wxjmfauth wrote: > > > > > Py 3.3 succeeded to somehow kill unicode and it has been transformed > > > into an "American" product for "American" users. > > > Steven, you are correct. But the price you pay for this is extremely high. Now, practically all characters are affected, espacially those *in* the Basic *** Multilingual*** Plane, these characters used by non "American" user (No offense here, I just use this word for ascii/latin-1). I'm ready to be considered as an idiot, but I'm not blind. As soon as I tested these characters, Py3.3 performs really badly. It seems to me it is legitimate to consider, there is a serious problem here. - I'm speaking about "language characters", one should speak about "scripting characters". - Obviously affected are not only the "language characters", but all characters, typographical signs, polytonic Greek, up to mathematical "Bold italic sans serif, Latin, uppercase", logically because all the "code points" are equivalent. Many people are commmenting, I have the feeling, I'm the only one who tested this. It is not necessary to dive in the Python code, understanding all this "characters stuff" is enough. And I am sorry, just saying "if you are not happy, switch back to Python 2.7 or use Ruby" (you know where you can read it) is in my mind not a correct answer. It only reflect a "yes, there is a problem, but..." Do not worry about me, I attempt to keep a neutral eye. It is my point of view (and facts). I will not open a blog with a "Python blah, blah, blah". jmf > For the first time in Python's history, Python on 32-bit systems handles > > strings containing Supplementary Multilingual Plane characters correctly, > > and it does so without doubling or quadrupling the amount of memory every > > single string takes up. > > >
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| From | Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-09-26 19:55 +1000 |
| Message-ID | <mailman.1420.1348653316.27098.python-list@python.org> |
| In reply to | #30175 |
On Wed, Sep 26, 2012 at 7:31 PM, <wxjmfauth@gmail.com> wrote: > you are correct. But the price you pay for this is extremely > high. Now, practically all characters are affected, espacially > those *in* the Basic *** Multilingual*** Plane, these characters > used by non "American" user (No offense here, I just use this > word for ascii/latin-1). > > I'm ready to be considered as an idiot, but I'm not blind. > As soon as I tested these characters, Py3.3 performs really > badly. It seems to me it is legitimate to consider, there > is a serious problem here. We've been over this thread. The only reason you're counting 3.3 as worse is because you're comparing against a narrow build of Python 3.2. Narrow builds are **BUGGY** and this needed to be resolved. When you compare against a wide build, semantics of 3.2 and 3.3 are identical, and then - and ONLY then - can you sanely compare performance. And 3.3 stacks up much better. ChrisA
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| From | wxjmfauth@gmail.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-09-26 07:19 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <447851a9-bc63-4711-a4e6-bff565e28f1f@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #30179 |
Le mercredi 26 septembre 2012 11:55:16 UTC+2, Chris Angelico a écrit : > On Wed, Sep 26, 2012 at 7:31 PM, <wxjmfauth@gmail.com> wrote: > > > you are correct. But the price you pay for this is extremely > > > high. Now, practically all characters are affected, espacially > > > those *in* the Basic *** Multilingual*** Plane, these characters > > > used by non "American" user (No offense here, I just use this > > > word for ascii/latin-1). > > > > > > I'm ready to be considered as an idiot, but I'm not blind. > > > As soon as I tested these characters, Py3.3 performs really > > > badly. It seems to me it is legitimate to consider, there > > > is a serious problem here. > > > > We've been over this thread. The only reason you're counting 3.3 as > > worse is because you're comparing against a narrow build of Python > > 3.2. Narrow builds are **BUGGY** and this needed to be resolved. > > > > When you compare against a wide build, semantics of 3.2 and 3.3 are > > identical, and then - and ONLY then - can you sanely compare > > performance. And 3.3 stacks up much better. > > > > ChrisA No, I'm comparing Py33 with Py32 narrow build [*]. And I am not a Python newbie. Others in a previous discussion have pointed "bad" numbers and even TR wrote something like "I'm baffled (?) by these numbers". I took a look at the test suites, unfortunatelly they are mainly testing "special cases", something like one of the 3 internal representations, eg "latin-1". I can also add to this, that it is not only one of the internal representation which may be suspect (it is probably different now, Py32/Py33) but also the "switch" between these representations which is causing troubles. [*] I have not the knowledge to compile a wide build and I do not wish to spend my time in something that will be most probably a nightmare for me. I'm reacting like a "normal" Python user. jmf
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