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Re: Python Worst Practices

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  Re: Python Worst Practices Michiel Overtoom <motoom@xs4all.nl> - 2015-02-25 21:58 +0100
    Re: Python Worst Practices BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-02-28 10:28 +0000
      Re: Python Worst Practices Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-02-28 12:56 +0200
        Re: Python Worst Practices wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2015-02-28 06:26 -0800
        Re: Python Worst Practices Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-02-28 15:43 +0000
        Re: Python Worst Practices Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-03-01 19:11 +1100
          Re: Python Worst Practices wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2015-03-01 01:07 -0800
          Re: Python Worst Practices Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-01 18:16 +0200
            Re: Python Worst Practices Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-03-02 03:32 +1100
              Re: Python Worst Practices Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-01 18:58 +0200
                Re: Python Worst Practices Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2015-03-01 10:42 -0700
                  Re: Python Worst Practices Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-01 21:21 +0200
                  OT Accents [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-03-02 09:43 +1100
            Re: Python Worst Practices Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-03-01 16:38 +0000
              Re: Python Worst Practices Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-01 19:01 +0200
                Re: Python Worst Practices Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-03-01 17:34 +0000
                  Re: Python Worst Practices Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-01 19:52 +0200
                    Re: Python Worst Practices Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-03-01 18:16 +0000
                    Re: Python Worst Practices Mario Figueiredo <marfig@gmail.com> - 2015-03-01 19:32 +0100
                      Re: Python Worst Practices wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2015-03-01 11:23 -0800
                        Re: Python Worst Practices Mario Figueiredo <marfig@gmail.com> - 2015-03-01 20:59 +0100
                      Re: Python Worst Practices Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2015-03-02 10:40 +1300
                        Re: Python Worst Practices Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2015-03-01 16:47 -0500
                          Re: Python Worst Practices Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-03-01 22:10 +0000
                          An injury when I was a sbhoolboy; I was bitten by a bat. (was: Python Worst Practices) Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2015-03-02 11:03 +1100
                          Re: An injury when I was a sbhoolboy; I was bitten by a bat. Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2015-03-02 11:07 +1100
                    Re: Python Worst Practices Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-03-02 20:02 +0000
                Re: Python Worst Practices Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-03-01 20:14 -0800
                  Re: Python Worst Practices Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-02 06:40 +0200
                  Re: Python Worst Practices alister <alister.nospam.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2015-03-02 08:59 +0000
                    Re: Python Worst Practices Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-02 14:19 +0200
                      (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-03-03 01:39 +1100
                        Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-02 17:30 +0200
                          Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Mario Figueiredo <marfig@gmail.com> - 2015-03-03 03:51 +0100
                            Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-03-02 19:51 -0800
                              Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2015-03-03 15:10 +1100
                              Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Mario Figueiredo <marfig@gmail.com> - 2015-03-03 05:32 +0100
                                Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-03-03 03:00 -0800
                                  Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] alister <alister.nospam.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2015-03-03 11:40 +0000
                                    Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] llanitedave <llanitedave@birdandflower.com> - 2015-03-03 21:43 -0800
                                      Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-04 15:16 +0200
                                        Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Mario Figueiredo <marfig@gmail.com> - 2015-03-04 14:41 +0100
                                          Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-04 18:55 +0200
                                        Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-03-04 06:45 -0800
                                        Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-03-05 06:14 +1100
                                          Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2015-03-04 11:28 -0800
                                          Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-04 21:33 +0200
                                            Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-03-05 07:11 +1100
                                              Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Tim Delaney <timothy.c.delaney@gmail.com> - 2015-03-05 07:40 +1100
                                              Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Emile van Sebille <emile@fenx.com> - 2015-03-04 14:39 -0800
                                              Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Tim Delaney <timothy.c.delaney@gmail.com> - 2015-03-05 10:36 +1100
                                              Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-03-05 20:39 -0500
                                            Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-03-04 20:10 +0000
                                            Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-03-04 19:38 -0800
                                              Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-05 07:19 +0200
                                                Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Mario Figueiredo <marfig@gmail.com> - 2015-03-05 10:16 +0100
                                                  Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-05 15:39 +0200
                                                Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-03-06 00:00 -0800
                                                  Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-03-06 08:31 +0000
                                                    Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-06 12:06 +0200
                                                    Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] alister <alister.nospam.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2015-03-06 12:34 +0000
                                                  Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-06 12:03 +0200
                                                    Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] llanitedave <llanitedave@birdandflower.com> - 2015-03-06 08:23 -0800
                                                      Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-06 20:15 +0200
                                                        Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Christian Gollwitzer <auriocus@gmx.de> - 2015-03-06 20:26 +0100
                                                  Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2015-03-06 14:34 +0200
                                              Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-03-05 20:28 +0000
                                            Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2015-03-05 21:45 +0200
                                              Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-05 22:10 +0200
                        Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-03-03 02:45 +1100
                          Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python   Worst Practices] Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2015-03-03 18:40 +1300
                            Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-03-03 17:56 +1100
                              Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-03 09:05 +0200
                                Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-03-03 18:14 +1100
                                  Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-03-03 18:38 +1100
                                    Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2015-03-03 00:12 -0800
                                  Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python   Worst Practices] Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2015-03-03 23:35 +1300
                          Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2015-03-02 23:35 -0800
                        Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Joel Goldstick <joel.goldstick@gmail.com> - 2015-03-02 10:54 -0500
                        Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2015-03-03 11:45 +1300
                        Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Sturla Molden <sturla.molden@gmail.com> - 2015-03-03 00:23 +0000
                          Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-03-03 12:00 +1100
                            Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2015-03-03 19:06 +1300
                          Re: (Still OT) Nationalism,   language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2015-03-03 19:06 +1300
                        Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-03-03 01:44 +0000
                        Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2015-03-03 02:09 +0000
                          Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-03-03 16:18 +1100
                        Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Sturla Molden <sturla.molden@gmail.com> - 2015-03-03 09:17 +0000
                        Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2015-03-03 15:40 +0100
                      Re: Python Worst Practices alister <alister.nospam.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2015-03-02 15:32 +0000
                        Re: Python Worst Practices Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-03-02 15:45 +0000
                    Re: Python Worst Practices Manolo Martínez <manolo@austrohungaro.com> - 2015-03-02 13:00 +0100
                Uncanny valley of languages Jonas Wielicki <jonas@wielicki.name> - 2015-03-02 11:54 +0100
                  Re: Uncanny valley of languages Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-03-02 18:33 -0800
            Re: Python Worst Practices Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-03-02 03:42 +1100
            Re: Python Worst Practices Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-03-01 16:52 +0000
            Re: Python Worst Practices alister <alister.nospam.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2015-03-01 20:16 +0000
              Re: Python Worst Practices Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-03-02 07:26 +1100
                Re: Python Worst Practices alister <alister.nospam.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2015-03-01 21:07 +0000
              Re: Python Worst Practices Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-01 22:45 +0200
                Re: Python Worst Practices Mario Figueiredo <marfig@gmail.com> - 2015-03-01 22:01 +0100
              Re: Python Worst Practices Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-03-01 20:53 -0500
                (Still OT) It's not the size of the vocabulary that matters, but what you do with it [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-03-02 13:35 +1100
                  Re: (Still OT) It's not the size of the vocabulary that matters, but what you do with it [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-03-01 19:18 -0800
                    Re: (Still OT) It's not the size of the vocabulary that matters, but what you do with it [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-03-02 14:42 +1100
                Re: Python Worst Practices Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.co.uk> - 2015-03-02 17:12 +0000
                  Re: Python Worst Practices sohcahtoa82@gmail.com - 2015-03-02 11:06 -0800
                    Re: Python Worst Practices Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.co.uk> - 2015-03-02 22:21 +0000
                  Re: Python Worst Practices Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-03-02 23:04 -0500
                    Re: Python Worst Practices Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-03 06:32 +0200
                    Re: Python Worst Practices Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.co.uk> - 2015-03-03 11:15 +0000
                  Re: Python Worst Practices Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-03-03 15:49 +1100
                    Re: Python Worst Practices Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.co.uk> - 2015-03-03 11:31 +0000
                  Re: Python Worst Practices Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-03-03 07:20 +0000
              Re: Python Worst Practices Travis Griggs <travisgriggs@gmail.com> - 2015-03-02 08:25 -0800
                Re: Python Worst Practices alister <alister.nospam.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2015-03-02 17:02 +0000
            Re: Python Worst Practices BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-03-01 22:14 +0000
            Re: Python Worst Practices Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-03-02 06:45 +1100

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#87019 — Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]

On Fri, 06 Mar 2015 08:31:40 +0000, Mark Lawrence wrote:

> On 06/03/2015 08:00, Rustom Mody wrote:
>> On Thursday, March 5, 2015 at 10:49:54 AM UTC+5:30, Marko Rauhamaa
>> wrote:
>>> Rustom Mody:
>>>
>>>> You keep talking of accent.
>>>> At first I thought you were using the word figuratively or else
>>>> joking.
>>>> Im now beginning to wonder if you mean it literally.
>>>> If so have you patented a new AOIP protocol?
>>>> If not do you give tuitions¹ in ESP/telepathy/Voodoo? I'll be happy
>>>> to pay<wink>
>>>
>>> Where I work, people do use voice still occasionally to communicate.
>>
>> I really dont understand what we are communicating (or not) about...
>>
>> Can you hear my accent? I certainly cant hear yours If you are talking
>> of accent (aural/physical just to be clear) of your co-workers how is
>> that more on-topic or relevant to this list than the weather in
>> Finland.
>> [Yeah its been freakish weather out here for the last 10 days -- global
>> warming?
>> And is global warming on topic for this list?]
>> Just to be clear -- I am going to be one of the tail-enders complaining
>> about on/off-topicness.  But someone or other will complain I guess.
>>
>> If on the other hand you are being slightly metaphorical and using
>> 'accent'
>> to talk of (say) Mark's britishisms¹ then please disambiguate for
>> better communication.
>>
>> But more to the point its still not clear (to me) whether you are
>> objecting to - to Mark - to British accent
> 
> British accent, Christmas is early this year so ho, ho, ho.  Nobody in
> this country ever guesses where I was born and bred, they all think I'm
> from the South West or the West Country.  Irish, Scottish, Welsh,
> English alone are different.  Most foreigners wouldn't have a dog's
> chance in hell of understanding a Geordie or a Glaswegian.  Move 50
> miles and you can hear a completely different accent.  British accent
> indeed.
> 
Foreigner? I can barely understand a Geordie accent & I am English.
whilst I agree to a point with Marco that when talking to a forigner you 
should take care to speak clearly for them the suggestion that American 
pronunciation is what I find unacceptable.

even though I can (and do) watch American TV shows reasonably easily some 
of their pronunciations seriously grate on my nerves :-

Bouy - it is pounced Boy not bo-ey!
chasis - it has a soft Ch  not a hard Ch,
Aluminium, Heck they don't even sell it correctly ;-)


>> - to British spellings in software - to anyone/anywhere international,
>> using non-international format
>>
>>
>> ¹Personally I find Mark's britishisms sometimes funny eg I found this
>>   https://groups.google.com/d/msg/comp.lang.python/EfloMHB3DjQ/
ZdY3Vn_6rpsJ
>>   hilarious even though I could not decipher more than 70% of the
>>   british accent.
>> Sometimes though I find it irrelevant/unnecessary/undecipherable.
>>
>> Personally I am not going to object to him nor am I going to object to
>> anyone objecting to him.
>>
>>
> Anybody objecting about me will be accused by me of discrimination
> against autistic people.  Now there is a not very subtle hint that might
> penetrate one or two of the thicker skins on the thicker heads that
> participate here.  Thankfully the numbers of such people are extremely
> small or we could have had WWIII.  Which could have happened when Global
> Crossing bought Racal Telecommunications and tried to stop us Brits
> using our kettles to make our cuppas.  Now that is seriously brain dead.
>   And they turned out to be a bit naughty with the books :(





-- 
"All my life I wanted to be someone; I guess I should have been more 
specific."
-- Jane Wagner

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#87007 — Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]

Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com>:

> I really dont understand what we are communicating (or not) about...
>
> Can you hear my accent?

If we met at a Python conference, I would hear it and hopefully even
understand it.

> But more to the point its still not clear (to me) whether you are objecting to
> - to Mark
> - to British accent
> - to British spellings in software
> - to anyone/anywhere international, using non-international format

I'm objecting (mildly) to British spellings in source code and technical
documentation.

I'm objecting (more strongly) to local English accents in settings
including but not limited to:

 - conference speeches with international audiences

 - group discussions with international participants

 - teleconferences with international participants

In my experience, it is harder to understand most British English
accents than, say, a run-of-the-mill Chinese engineer trying to speak
English. It has to do with pronunciation, speed and eloquence (too much
of it with native speakers).


Marko

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#87033 — Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]

On Friday, March 6, 2015 at 2:03:42 AM UTC-8, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
> Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com>:
> 
> > I really dont understand what we are communicating (or not) about...
> >
> > Can you hear my accent?
> 
> If we met at a Python conference, I would hear it and hopefully even
> understand it.
> 
> > But more to the point its still not clear (to me) whether you are objecting to
> > - to Mark
> > - to British accent
> > - to British spellings in software
> > - to anyone/anywhere international, using non-international format
> 
> I'm objecting (mildly) to British spellings in source code and technical
> documentation.
> 
> I'm objecting (more strongly) to local English accents in settings
> including but not limited to:
> 
>  - conference speeches with international audiences
> 
>  - group discussions with international participants
> 
>  - teleconferences with international participants
> 
> In my experience, it is harder to understand most British English
> accents than, say, a run-of-the-mill Chinese engineer trying to speak
> English. It has to do with pronunciation, speed and eloquence (too much
> of it with native speakers).
> 
> 
> Marko

It's obvious that's what's needed here is a PEP requiring that the International Phonetic Alphabet be used for all Python identifiers and keywords.

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#87051 — Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]

llanitedave <llanitedave@birdandflower.com>:

> It's obvious that's what's needed here is a PEP requiring that the
> International Phonetic Alphabet be used for all Python identifiers and
> keywords.

You're onto something:

========================================================================
#!/ˈjuːzəɹ/bɪn/ɛnv ˈpaɪˌθɑːn3
# -*- ˈkoʊdɪŋ: ˌjuːˌtiːˌɛf-ˈ8 -*-

ˈɪmpoɹt loʊˈkæl

dɛf meɪn():
    tɹaɪ:
        ɹeɪz ˈVæljuːˈƐɹəɹ()
    ɪkˈsɛpt ˈVæljuːˈƐɹəɹ:
        tɹaɪ:
            ɹeɪz ˈAɪOʊˈƐɹəɹ()
        ˈfaɪnli:
            ɹeɪz

ɪf __neɪm__ == "__meɪn__":
    tɹaɪ:
        meɪn()
    ɪkˈsɛpt ˈVæljuːˈƐɹəɹ:
        pɹɪnt("Həˈloʊ")
========================================================================


Marko

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#87054 — Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]

Am 06.03.15 um 19:15 schrieb Marko Rauhamaa:
> llanitedave <llanitedave@birdandflower.com>:
> 
>> It's obvious that's what's needed here is a PEP requiring that the
>> International Phonetic Alphabet be used for all Python identifiers and
>> keywords.
> 
> You're onto something:
ROFL!!!
Though I'd prefer a few identifiers in a different way; I think you can
drop many of the ɹ, e.g.

> ========================================================================
> #!/ˈjuːzəɹ/bɪn/ɛnv ˈpaɪˌθɑːn3
> # -*- ˈkoʊdɪŋ: ˌjuːˌtiːˌɛf-ˈ8 -*-
> 
> ˈɪmpoɹt loʊˈkæl
ɪmˈpɔːt ˈləʊkl

British accent saves bytes!!
SCNR


> 
> dɛf meɪn():
>     tɹaɪ:
>         ɹeɪz ˈVæljuːˈƐɹəɹ()
>     ɪkˈsɛpt ˈVæljuːˈƐɹəɹ:
>         tɹaɪ:
>             ɹeɪz ˈAɪOʊˈƐɹəɹ()
>         ˈfaɪnli:
>             ɹeɪz
> 
> ɪf __neɪm__ == "__meɪn__":
>     tɹaɪ:
>         meɪn()
>     ɪkˈsɛpt ˈVæljuːˈƐɹəɹ:
>         pɹɪnt("Həˈloʊ")
> ========================================================================
> 
> 
> Marko
> 

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#87018 — Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]

On Fri, 6 Mar 2015 00:00:28 -0800 (PST), Rustom Mody
<rustompmody@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Thursday, March 5, 2015 at 10:49:54 AM UTC+5:30, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
>> Rustom Mody:
>> 
>> > You keep talking of accent.
>> > At first I thought you were using the word figuratively or else joking.
>> > Im now beginning to wonder if you mean it literally.
>> > If so have you patented a new AOIP protocol?
>> > If not do you give tuitions¹ in ESP/telepathy/Voodoo? I'll be happy to
>> > pay<wink>
>> 
>> Where I work, people do use voice still occasionally to communicate.
>
>I really dont understand what we are communicating (or not) about...
>
>Can you hear my accent? I certainly cant hear yours

And if I call a Python list "books", is Python going to complain about
my accent? Really?


-- 
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web:  http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

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#86954 — Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]

On 05/03/2015 03:38, Rustom Mody wrote:
> On Thursday, March 5, 2015 at 1:03:13 AM UTC+5:30, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
>> Steven D'Aprano:
>>
>>> Care to enlighten us then? Because your anecdote doesn't appear to
>>> have even the most tenuous relationship to this discussion.
>>
>> Even more important, when you talk about Python or other computer stuff
>> to a non-English-speaker, try to emulate the accent most people around
>> the world are most familiar with, American English. If you find that
>> overwhelming, try to speak like a BBC newsreader. Your native accent can
>> be very difficult to understand.
>
> You keep talking of accent.
> At first I thought you were using the word figuratively or else joking.
> Im now beginning to wonder if you mean it literally.
> If so have you patented a new AOIP protocol?
> If not do you give tuitions¹ in ESP/telepathy/Voodoo?  I'll be happy to pay<wink>
>
> ----------
> ¹GG is red-lining tuitions -- heh!
>

I like the idea of some visitor to Scotland mentioning some speaker's 
English accent.  I'm not so keen on the idea of the said visitor being 
introduced to the Scottish handshake.

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence

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#86950 — Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]

On Wed, 04 Mar 2015 21:33:01 +0200, Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net>
wrote:

>Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info>:
>
>> Care to enlighten us then? Because your anecdote doesn't appear to
>> have even the most tenuous relationship to this discussion.
>
>English-speaker, when you name things in your Python programs, you had
>better stick to American spellings.
>
>Even more important, when you talk about Python or other computer stuff
>to a non-English-speaker, try to emulate the accent most people around
>the world are most familiar with, American English. If you find that
>overwhelming, try to speak like a BBC newsreader. Your native accent can
>be very difficult to understand.

Are things named in Python named with an accent?

Can you tell what my accent is like when  I write in this newsgroup?


-- 
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web:  http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

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#86952 — Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]

Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net>:

> On Wed, 04 Mar 2015 21:33:01 +0200, Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net>
>>English-speaker, when you name things in your Python programs, you had
>>better stick to American spellings.
>>
>>Even more important, when you talk about Python or other computer stuff
>>to a non-English-speaker, try to emulate the accent most people around
>>the world are most familiar with, American English. If you find that
>>overwhelming, try to speak like a BBC newsreader. Your native accent can
>>be very difficult to understand.
>
> Are things named in Python named with an accent?
>
> Can you tell what my accent is like when  I write in this newsgroup?

It's clear my accent is clouding my message.


Marko

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#86753 — Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]

On Tue, Mar 3, 2015 at 1:39 AM, Steven D'Aprano
<steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> wrote:
> Whereas the comparatively small differences between British and American
> English are all the more important because they distinguish the two. Nobody
> is ever going to mistake Finland and the Finish people for Americans, even
> if you learn to speak American English. But for Britons to use American
> English is, in a way, to cease to be Britons at all.

Which, I suspect, is part of why the pound is still alive and well,
and hasn't been replaced with the euro. Maybe some other countries
don't mind becoming the United States of Europe, but the British
resist the encroachment, and rightly so.

> ... a mass or uncountable noun, like air[3], milk, music and
> housework. You cannot have "three milks", you have to add some sort of unit
> to it: three litres of milk...

And yet, oddly enough, you wouldn't bat an eyelid if someone asks for
"two sugars" in his tea. Or his hot chocolate... mmm, time for me to
go make myself one, I think. Two sugars, a splosh of milk, caramel hot
chocolate powder, and butter. Not "one butter", because that concept
doesn't exist, but very definitely "two sugars", because the sugar
comes in discrete units.

(Not "discreet units", mind, although I do trust my sugar not to blab
about the sorts of drinks I put it in.)

> [1] Yes, I watch as many American movies and television shows as the next
> guy. I'm allowed to take the parts of their culture I approve of and reject
> the parts I don't.

Part of resisting monoculture is accepting other people's cultures,
not just sticking with your own. Embracing that difference. So go
ahead: Watch "McHale's Navy" and "Yes Minister", and appreciate the
comedy of both - decide for yourself which one you find more to your
liking, but know that they both exist, and they represent different
styles.

(Aside: Even in an American TV show like Once Upon A Time, it's
possible for non-American accents to be welcomed. Belle is played by
an Aussie, and her distinctive accent is commented on in-universe.
Somehow, she picked up an accent that's completely different from her
father's and her mother's, but is its own particular style and speech.
Maybe she learned the accent from one of her books.)

We embrace Unicode in Python 3 because it allows us to welcome
Russian, Icelandic, Arabic, and Chinese programmers and allow them to
write variable names in their own languages, using their own scripts
(or, in the case of Icelandic, a script very similar to ours but with
a few additional letters). We should equally embrace American and
British English - and Indian English, and Australian English, and any
other variant that people want to code in. You want to write your code
in North-East Scots? Sure. You want to write your code in Gaelic? No
problem (though personally, I prefer garlic to Gaelic). You want to
use "colour" instead of "color"? Also not a problem, and should be
easy enough for someone to understand who normally spells it the other
way.

ChrisA

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#86814 — Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]

Chris Angelico wrote:
> You want to
> use "colour" instead of "color"? Also not a problem, and should be
> easy enough for someone to understand who normally spells it the other
> way.

It's not a matter of failing to understand, it's about
having more than one spelling of an identifier around
imposing an extra cognitive burden.

PEP 8 recommends against abbreviating identifiers because
it's hard to remember which abbreviation is being used
in any given context. Multiple alternative spellings
have a similar effect.

-- 
Greg

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#86820 — Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]

On Tue, Mar 3, 2015 at 4:40 PM, Gregory Ewing
<greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> wrote:
> Chris Angelico wrote:
>>
>> You want to
>> use "colour" instead of "color"? Also not a problem, and should be
>> easy enough for someone to understand who normally spells it the other
>> way.
>
>
> It's not a matter of failing to understand, it's about
> having more than one spelling of an identifier around
> imposing an extra cognitive burden.
>
> PEP 8 recommends against abbreviating identifiers because
> it's hard to remember which abbreviation is being used
> in any given context. Multiple alternative spellings
> have a similar effect.

Aye, but that's only an issue if you use more than one. You're most
welcome to use "colour" in a project, just be consistent.

ChrisA

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#86821 — Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]

Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com>:

> Aye, but that's only an issue if you use more than one. You're most
> welcome to use "colour" in a project, just be consistent.

Or "Farbe" or "couleur" or "väri" or...

I *have* seen code like that.


Marko

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#86823 — Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]

On Tue, Mar 3, 2015 at 6:05 PM, Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> wrote:
> Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com>:
>
>> Aye, but that's only an issue if you use more than one. You're most
>> welcome to use "colour" in a project, just be consistent.
>
> Or "Farbe" or "couleur" or "väri" or...
>
> I *have* seen code like that.

And I've seen a number of proposals to build Python with its
*keywords* localized. While there is a reasonable limit to this (for
instance, I wouldn't expect the disassembly of CPython byte-code to
have "STORE_FAST" translated into another language), there's nothing
wrong with programmers being able to write their code in their
languages.

ChrisA

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#86828 — Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]

Chris Angelico wrote:

> And I've seen a number of proposals to build Python with its
> keywords localized.

ChinesePython:

http://www.chinesepython.org/english/english.html

Teuton:

http://www.fiber-space.de/EasyExtend/doc/teuton/teuton.htm


-- 
Steve

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#86830 — Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]

Le mardi 3 mars 2015 08:38:22 UTC+1, Steven D'Aprano a écrit :
> Chris Angelico wrote:
> 
> Teuton:
> 
> http://www.fiber-space.de/EasyExtend/doc/teuton/teuton.htm
> 
> 

Teuton: Very nice. Pure Python spirit.

If Python 3 does not work outside the 7-bit ascii
world, the reason is to keep compatibility with
the already buggy Python 2 "7-bit ascii world".

Who cares? Certainly, not the unexperimented users who
are testing some random CJK chars believing they are
testing Unicode.

jmf

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#86834 — Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]

Chris Angelico wrote:
> And I've seen a number of proposals to build Python with its
> *keywords* localized. While there is a reasonable limit to this (for
> instance, I wouldn't expect the disassembly of CPython byte-code to
> have "STORE_FAST" translated into another language), there's nothing
> wrong with programmers being able to write their code in their
> languages.

Just for fun, I used Google Translate to turn a piece of
my Python code into French.

Some of the results were rather amusing. For example, it
turned "mess" (short for "message") into "désordre", and
"but" (short for "button") into "mais". It got "for", "in",
"if", "else" and "return" right, though!

# Original code

def ask(mess, responses = ["OK", "Cancel"], default = 0, cancel = -1,
		wrap_width = 60, **kwds):
	box = Dialog(**kwds)
	d = box.margin
	lb = wrapped_label(mess, wrap_width)
	lb.topleft = (d, d)
	buts = []
	for caption in responses:
		but = Button(caption, action = lambda x = caption: box.dismiss(x))
		buts.append(but)
	brow = Row(buts, spacing = d, equalize = 'w')
	lb.width = max(lb.width, brow.width)
	col = Column([lb, brow], spacing = d, align ='r')
	col.topleft = (d, d)
	if default is not None:
		box.enter_response = responses[default]
	else:
		box.enter_response = None
	if cancel is not None:
		box.cancel_response = responses[cancel]
	else:
		box.cancel_response = None
	box.add(col)
	box.shrink_wrap()
	return box.present()

# Translated code

demander def (désordre, réponses = ["OK", "Annuler"], par défaut = 0, annulent = -1,
wrap_width = 60, kwds **):
boîte de dialogue = (** kwds)
d = box.margin
lb = wrapped_label (désordre, wrap_width)
lb.topleft = (d, d)
BUTS = []
pour la légende dans les réponses:
mais = Bouton (légende, action = lambda x = légende: box.dismiss (x))
buts.append (mais)
Brow = ROW (buts, l'espacement = d, égalisent = 'W')
lb.width = max (lb.width, brow.width)
col = Colonne ([lb, le front], l'espacement = d, align = 'r')
col.topleft = (d, d)
si par défaut ne est pas None:
box.enter_response = réponses [défaut]
d'autre:
box.enter_response = Aucun
si annuler ne est pas None:
box.cancel_response = réponses [Annuler]
d'autre:
box.cancel_response = Aucun
box.add (col)
box.shrink_wrap ()
retourner box.present ()

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#86827 — Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]

Le lundi 2 mars 2015 16:46:14 UTC+1, Chris Angelico a écrit :
> 
> We embrace Unicode in Python 3 because it allows us to welcome
> Russian, Icelandic, Arabic, and Chinese programmers and allow them to
> write variable names in their own languages, using their own scripts
> (or, in the case of Icelandic, a script very similar to ours but with
> a few additional letters). We should equally embrace American and
> British English - and Indian English, and Australian English, and any
> other variant that people want to code in. You want to write your code
> in North-East Scots? Sure. You want to write your code in Gaelic? No
> problem (though personally, I prefer garlic to Gaelic). You want to
> use "colour" instead of "color"? Also not a problem, and should be
> easy enough for someone to understand who normally spells it the other
> way.
> 
======
Python and Unicode? A buggy joke. It's worth to
explain it to students (and/or other scientists).

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#86755 — Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]

I like "Old Tricks". I learn lots of British english idioms.  I'm from NYC

On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 10:45 AM, Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 3, 2015 at 1:39 AM, Steven D'Aprano
> <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> wrote:
>> Whereas the comparatively small differences between British and American
>> English are all the more important because they distinguish the two. Nobody
>> is ever going to mistake Finland and the Finish people for Americans, even
>> if you learn to speak American English. But for Britons to use American
>> English is, in a way, to cease to be Britons at all.
>
> Which, I suspect, is part of why the pound is still alive and well,
> and hasn't been replaced with the euro. Maybe some other countries
> don't mind becoming the United States of Europe, but the British
> resist the encroachment, and rightly so.
>
>> ... a mass or uncountable noun, like air[3], milk, music and
>> housework. You cannot have "three milks", you have to add some sort of unit
>> to it: three litres of milk...
>
> And yet, oddly enough, you wouldn't bat an eyelid if someone asks for
> "two sugars" in his tea. Or his hot chocolate... mmm, time for me to
> go make myself one, I think. Two sugars, a splosh of milk, caramel hot
> chocolate powder, and butter. Not "one butter", because that concept
> doesn't exist, but very definitely "two sugars", because the sugar
> comes in discrete units.
>
> (Not "discreet units", mind, although I do trust my sugar not to blab
> about the sorts of drinks I put it in.)
>
>> [1] Yes, I watch as many American movies and television shows as the next
>> guy. I'm allowed to take the parts of their culture I approve of and reject
>> the parts I don't.
>
> Part of resisting monoculture is accepting other people's cultures,
> not just sticking with your own. Embracing that difference. So go
> ahead: Watch "McHale's Navy" and "Yes Minister", and appreciate the
> comedy of both - decide for yourself which one you find more to your
> liking, but know that they both exist, and they represent different
> styles.
>
> (Aside: Even in an American TV show like Once Upon A Time, it's
> possible for non-American accents to be welcomed. Belle is played by
> an Aussie, and her distinctive accent is commented on in-universe.
> Somehow, she picked up an accent that's completely different from her
> father's and her mother's, but is its own particular style and speech.
> Maybe she learned the accent from one of her books.)
>
> We embrace Unicode in Python 3 because it allows us to welcome
> Russian, Icelandic, Arabic, and Chinese programmers and allow them to
> write variable names in their own languages, using their own scripts
> (or, in the case of Icelandic, a script very similar to ours but with
> a few additional letters). We should equally embrace American and
> British English - and Indian English, and Australian English, and any
> other variant that people want to code in. You want to write your code
> in North-East Scots? Sure. You want to write your code in Gaelic? No
> problem (though personally, I prefer garlic to Gaelic). You want to
> use "colour" instead of "color"? Also not a problem, and should be
> easy enough for someone to understand who normally spells it the other
> way.
>
> ChrisA
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list



-- 
Joel Goldstick
http://joelgoldstick.com

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#86789 — Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]

Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> I remember the first time I realised that when Indians talk about "a
> code" they aren't using "wrong English", they are using a regional
> variation.

I don't think this is confined to Indians. I've noticed
that people from a Fortran scientific-computing background
tend to use the word that way as well.

-- 
Greg

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