Groups > comp.lang.python > #56930 > unrolled thread

Sexism in the Ruby community: how does the Python community manage it?

Started by	Owen Jacobson <owen.jacobson@grimoire.ca>
First post	2013-10-16 23:13 -0400
Last post	2013-10-26 16:47 +0000
Articles	11 on this page of 51 — 29 participants

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#56978

From	Serhiy Storchaka <storchaka@gmail.com>
Date	2013-10-17 21:13 +0300
Message-ID	<mailman.1170.1382033633.18130.python-list@python.org>
In reply to	#56969

17.10.13 20:37, MRAB написав(ла):
> It's interesting to note that, in the early days, programming was
> thought to be a suitable job for a woman because, after all, it
> involved typing, so basically it was just clerical activity!

But in the earlier days, typing and clerical activity were male 
dominated fields.

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#57010

From	Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info>
Date	2013-10-18 01:49 +0000
Message-ID	<526093b8$0$29981$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
In reply to	#56978

On Thu, 17 Oct 2013 21:13:33 +0300, Serhiy Storchaka wrote:

> 17.10.13 20:37, MRAB написав(ла):
>> It's interesting to note that, in the early days, programming was
>> thought to be a suitable job for a woman because, after all, it
>> involved typing, so basically it was just clerical activity!
> 
> But in the earlier days, typing and clerical activity were male
> dominated fields.

Correct. "Secretary" originally meant "one who keeps secrets for 
another", e.g. the Secretary of State. I think MRAB is conflating 
programming with the first computers, who were women, not machines. 
Because it was tedious, repetitive work, and because most of the men were 
over in Europe getting shot at, nearly all of the computers at Bletchly 
Park were women. The actual mechanical computing devices were called 
"bombes", I kid you not.

-- 
Steven

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#57037

From	Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk>
Date	2013-10-18 08:58 +0100
Message-ID	<mailman.1205.1382083118.18130.python-list@python.org>
In reply to	#57010

On 18/10/2013 02:49, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> Because it was tedious, repetitive work, and because most of the men were
> over in Europe getting shot at, nearly all of the computers at Bletchly
> Park were women. The actual mechanical computing devices were called
> "bombes", I kid you not.
>

What complete and utter tosh, everybody with any brains knows that you 
can't possibly compute anything with a mechanical device.

But seriously, just seconds ago I was thinking of these clever little 
sods whilst reading another thread here, no guesses which one :)

I also understand that the ladies involved used to surprise the big wig 
visitors by working in their underwear as the rooms could get so hot, 
quite something for the 1940s, but "Don't you know there's a war on".

-- 
Roses are red,
Violets are blue,
Most poems rhyme,
But this one doesn't.

Mark Lawrence

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#56992

From	Joshua Landau <joshua@landau.ws>
Date	2013-10-17 22:14 +0100
Message-ID	<mailman.1180.1382044538.18130.python-list@python.org>
In reply to	#56930

On 17 October 2013 04:13, Owen Jacobson <owen.jacobson@grimoire.ca> wrote:
> Last week, Elad Maidar wrote a fairly short but readable opinion piece[0]
> illustrating some long-standing social problems in the Ruby community,
> ending with a very specific call to action around naming conventions for
> Ruby projects and gems. To save you the trouble of scrolling to the bottom
> of this post and clicking, here's the relevant bit:
...
> There are a few examples of the same sort of bad decision-making that are, I
> think, worth discussing:
>
> * SexMachine (https://pypi.python.org/pypi/SexMachine/0.1.1 - an attempt to
> detect the gender of names, which… well, ask the nearest boy named Sue - or
> girl named Leslie)
> * sexytime (https://pypi.python.org/pypi/sexytime/0.1.0)
> * pep8nazi (https://pypi.python.org/pypi/pep8nazi/0.1 - do we shove
> non-PEP8-compliant authors into "showers" now?)

Personally I find it very hard to consider those "disallowed" terms.
"Sex" isn't some abhorrent concept, and using "nazi" in colloquial
informal usage is hardly in any way being disrespectful to victims of
actual Nazism.

We're not the moral police and we shouldn't act like it. Obviously
names appropriate for formal usage are more convenient, but that's a
different matter. It's not oppressing anyone.

> So, two questions:
>
> 1. What social biases and problems *do* we unwittingly encourage by way of
> community-tolerated behaviour? Where, if not through the conventions for
> naming, do we encourage sexism, racism, and other mindlessly exclusionary
> behaviour?

It's not our job to do anything. We can't "clean" the internet, so
there's no point trying. Personally I think the common digressions
into attacks on intellect and professionalism are much more socially
regressed than the minute levels of sexism we have.

As long as we take an appropriate stance on discovery, I'd say we're doing fine.

> 2. What kind of social pressure can we bring to bear to _keep_ Python's
> package naming conventions as socially neutral as they are,

We just make sure that hurtful statements are frowned upon and
potentially disallowed.

Note that "gay" is not offensive (in fact, being offended by it would
itself be socially regressive) whereas "gays_are_worse_people" would
be.

Also note that context applies: if the module generates gradients
(remember that the rainbow is "approved" amongst the gay community)
then it's just a bad name. If the module is itself offensive
commentary or satire, that's a different story.

> if and when some high-profile dirtbag decides this language is the best language?

Oi, oi, oi. Calm down. The guy who made "SexMachine", I bet, had the
least intention to hurt anyone's feelings. You need to be careful not
to imply such terms on these people.

Also note that although you were talking about potential further "bad
names", you used "SexMachine" as one example.

> 3. How can we reach out to the Ruby community and help *them* get past the
> current crop of gender issues, and help them as a group to do better next
> time?

No. You're not the police.

If they're concerned and need help removing this stuff, lend support.
But don't go forcing your more conservative views down their throats.

> it's hugely important and hugely beneficial that we welcome as many folks
> into the Python community as possible, and do our best to foster an
> environment where people can succeed regardless of who or what they are, and
> recent evidence suggests that that requires ongoing conversation and
> engagement, not just passive acceptance.
>
> So, how should we be more awesome?

As long as we raise issues as they become apparent, and when concerns
are raised, I think we are acting appropriately.

I'm not saying we should ignore transgressions, but as long as that
vast non-sexist majority challenge sexism on sight, most sexism will
be challenged and the social pressures will improve.

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#56993

From	Joshua Landau <joshua@landau.ws>
Date	2013-10-17 22:17 +0100
Message-ID	<mailman.1181.1382044698.18130.python-list@python.org>
In reply to	#56930

On 17 October 2013 22:14, Joshua Landau <joshua@landau.ws> wrote:
> It's not our job to do anything. We can't "clean" the internet, so
> there's no point trying. Personally I think the common digressions
> into attacks on intellect and professionalism are much more socially
> regressed than the minute levels of sexism we have.

This, by the way, was meant to refer to this list (being the social
group of relevance) and not the tech community at large where sexism
definitely is a large concern.

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#56995

From	Gene Heskett <gheskett@wdtv.com>
Date	2013-10-17 17:42 -0400
Message-ID	<mailman.1183.1382046154.18130.python-list@python.org>
In reply to	#56930

On Thursday 17 October 2013 17:34:15 Mark Lawrence did opine:

> On 17/10/2013 20:43, Ian Kelly wrote:
> > On Thu, Oct 17, 2013 at 11:16 AM, Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> wrote:
> >> On Thursday, October 17, 2013 11:07:48 AM UTC-4, Chris Angelico wrote:
> >>> Module names should be  descriptive, not fancy.
> >> 
> >> Interesting comment, on a mailing list for a language named after a
> >> snake, especially by a guy who claims to prefer an language named
> >> after a fish :-)
> > 
> > Well, he did say "module names", not "language names".  Few language
> > names are descriptive, and those that are tend to be acronyms: BASIC,
> > LISP, COBOL, PHP, APL.  Note that while that last one is descriptive,
> > it does very little to distinguish itself from any other programming
> > language.
> 
> It's just so unfair, poor old CORAL gets left out of this type of list
> every time :(

And I feel the same about ARexx.  An extremely capable language for the 
amiga & the only higher level language I ever wrote a commercial 
application in.

But boy was I disappointed when I moved some ARexx code to linux & tried to 
execute it with Regina.  Never got past the 2nd line because Regina was in 
such a small sandbox it couldn't even ask the system for the correct time.
Rexx/Regina might have had 5% of the functionality that ARexx had.  But 
commode door never gave Bill Hawes a damned dime for his efforts, not even 
any royalties from his book.

Cheers, Gene
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)

Power is danger.
		-- The Centurion, "Balance of Terror", stardate 1709.2
A pen in the hand of this president is far more
dangerous than 200 million guns in the hands of
         law-abiding citizens.

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#56996

From	Kevin Walzer <kw@codebykevin.com>
Date	2013-10-17 17:50 -0400
Message-ID	<l3pm40$gab$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to	#56930

On 10/16/13 11:13 PM, Owen Jacobson wrote:
> 3. How can we reach out to the Ruby community and help *them* get past
> the current crop of gender issues, and help them as a group to do better
> next time?

The Ruby community seems to be a singular example of "brogrammer" 
culture: mostly young men, lots of drinking, lots of sex humor, extreme 
work intensity, arrogant intelligence, and a tendency to view women as 
people to get laid with, and a distinct lack of experience with working 
with women as equals or superiors. It's frat life transplanted to 
startup culture. I have no idea why this seems so endemic in the Ruby 
community; it probably has something to do with the huge popularity of 
Rails  and the resurgence of tech startups over the past several years: 
both have created a "gold rush" environment that has attracted huge 
numbers of young programmers with technical chops but who are shockingly 
undeveloped in other ways.  It's immature men meeting an immature 
business environment (i.e., a startup) without procedures in place to 
set an appropriate tone. Such behavior in most other fields would get 
them fired so fast it would make their heads spin, if not getting them 
drummed out of the field altogether.

I suspect that Python doesn't have these problems because it's an older, 
more established language, and the community is comprised of older and 
more mature individuals who have outgrown such shenanigans, or never 
embraced them in the first place. Python has grown steadily but never 
had the boom that Ruby on Rails had. I'm sure the Python community has 
its issues with institutionalized sexism, not least because computer 
fields in general have so few women, but I have seen no evidence of the 
overt, sexist hostility that pervades "brogrammer" culture.

As to what the Python community can do, I'm not sure what, apart from 
calling out the idiot "brogrammers" who perpetuate such hostility to 
women, and refusing to associate with it. The real opportunity to 
address this lies with the startup founders and executives who tolerate 
this kind of behavior, and don't send its perpetuators packing. Losing a 
job because you're a sexist jerk might get you thinking about the 
importance of treating all people with respect. If you're a startup 
founder who tolerates such behavior because you're afraid of losing your 
developers to other companies, then you're a coward; and if you simply 
don't see a problem with such behavior or deny that it exists, then you 
are worse than a coward, and you are worse than a jerk.

Let me reiterate: the overt sexism and hostility toward women that 
emanates from "brogrammer" culture is shocking to anyone who works in a 
more established field with a better balance between men and women. I've 
worked in marketing, editing, technical writing, and development, and at 
no place I have ever worked would such behavior be greeted with anything 
but immediate termination. Even the software startup I worked at did not 
have such issues; while the developers were all men, the company was 
founded by a husband-and-wife team, and the women who worked there (in 
technical writing and sales support) were treated with respect, because 
the founder would not tolerate anything else.

It would be great to see more leaders at big tech companies speak out 
against such garbage. What impact would it have if Larry Page, Mark 
Zuckerberg, Marissa Meyer, and others say, "If you do that crap here, 
you won't be here"? Or what if venture capitalists said, "We won't fund 
you if you don't provide an equitable work environment that puts jerks 
out on their rear end." Nothing short of some hard, painful experience 
is likely to have a large-scale change on the sexist culture that 
pervades so much of tech.

A bit off-topic perhaps, for which I apologize, but I've been following 
the whole "sexism in tech" subject with increasing disgust and dismay, 
and I wanted to strongly protest against it.

--Kevin

-- 
Kevin Walzer
Code by Kevin/Mobile Code by Kevin
http://www.codebykevin.com
http://www.wtmobilesoftware.com

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#56998

From	Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com>
Date	2013-10-18 09:11 +1100
Message-ID	<mailman.1185.1382047884.18130.python-list@python.org>
In reply to	#56996

On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 8:50 AM, Kevin Walzer <kw@codebykevin.com> wrote:
> I've worked in marketing, editing, technical writing, and development, and
> at no place I have ever worked would such behavior be greeted with anything
> but immediate termination.

That's all very well, but what if these gems were created, not by
someone at work (where termination is possible), but by a single guy
at home (and I mean "single" in two senses here)? He's not going to
lose his job over it - at least, I *hope* he wouldn't get fired for
what he did on his own time - so where's the incentive going to come
from?

ChrisA

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#56999

From	Kevin Walzer <kw@codebykevin.com>
Date	2013-10-17 18:23 -0400
Message-ID	<l3po1u$vlf$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to	#56998

On 10/17/13 6:11 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 8:50 AM, Kevin Walzer <kw@codebykevin.com> wrote:
>> I've worked in marketing, editing, technical writing, and development, and
>> at no place I have ever worked would such behavior be greeted with anything
>> but immediate termination.
>
> That's all very well, but what if these gems were created, not by
> someone at work (where termination is possible), but by a single guy
> at home (and I mean "single" in two senses here)? He's not going to
> lose his job over it - at least, I *hope* he wouldn't get fired for
> what he did on his own time - so where's the incentive going to come
> from?
>
> ChrisA
>

Well, putting the package name on an official List of Asshattery is a 
good start.

--Kevin

-- 
Kevin Walzer
Code by Kevin/Mobile Code by Kevin
http://www.codebykevin.com
http://www.wtmobilesoftware.com

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#57033

From	Modulok <modulok@gmail.com>
Date	2013-10-17 23:07 -0600
Message-ID	<mailman.1201.1382072885.18130.python-list@python.org>
In reply to	#56930

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On Wed, Oct 16, 2013 at 9:13 PM, Owen Jacobson <owen.jacobson@grimoire.ca>wrote:

> Last week, Elad Maidar wrote a fairly short but readable opinion piece[0]
> illustrating some long-standing social problems in the Ruby community,
> ending with a very specific call to action around naming conventions for
> Ruby projects and gems. To save you the trouble of scrolling to the bottom
> of this post and clicking, here's the relevant bit:
>
>  What is missing you ask? I think that there is no consideration in women
>> when it comes to gem naming convention, here are a few gems that i found in
>> a 5 mintues search on Rubygems.org to demonstrate why women and other
>> groups probably feel uncomfortable when trying to get into the Rails
>> community:
>>
>> * retarded
>> * bitch
>> * hoe
>> * womanizer
>> * recursive_pimp_slap
>> * miniskirt
>> * childlabor
>> * bj
>> * sex
>> * fuck
>> * rape-me
>> * therapist - yeah, It passes as a double meaning - but still.
>> * shag
>> * db_nazi
>> * and ass
>>
>> While some of you may think this is a righteous callout - I think that as
>> a community we need to strive to be as appealing as possible, there is
>> nothing cool about naming your gem “fuck” or “retarded” and we as a
>> community - need to stop this from happening as much as we can.
>>
>
> Read the rest, it's pretty good.
>
> (A number of the named gems have been pulled by their authors.)
>
> It occurred to me to go digging around pypi - arguably[1] the Python
> community's equivalent to gems - to see if I could find similar
> institutionalized sexism.
>
> The good news: the specific examples Elad called out are STRIKINGLY absent
> from pypi. By and large the published python packages are inobjectionable.
> Well done, "us", in as much as there is an "us" to congratulate.
>
> There are a few examples of the same sort of bad decision-making that are,
> I think, worth discussing:
>
> * SexMachine (https://pypi.python.org/pypi/**SexMachine/0.1.1<https://pypi.python.org/pypi/SexMachine/0.1.1>- an attempt to detect the gender of names, which… well, ask the nearest
> boy named Sue - or girl named Leslie)
> * sexytime (https://pypi.python.org/pypi/**sexytime/0.1.0<https://pypi.python.org/pypi/sexytime/0.1.0>
> )
> * pep8nazi (https://pypi.python.org/pypi/**pep8nazi/0.1<https://pypi.python.org/pypi/pep8nazi/0.1>- do we shove non-PEP8-compliant authors into "showers" now?)
>
> So, two questions:
>
> 1. What social biases and problems *do* we unwittingly encourage by way of
> community-tolerated behaviour? Where, if not through the conventions for
> naming, do we encourage sexism, racism, and other mindlessly exclusionary
> behaviour?
>
> 2. What kind of social pressure can we bring to bear to _keep_ Python's
> package naming conventions as socially neutral as they are, if and when
> some high-profile dirtbag decides this language is the best language? How
> can we apply the same pressures to other parts of the Python community?
>
> 3. How can we reach out to the Ruby community and help *them* get past the
> current crop of gender issues, and help them as a group to do better next
> time?
>
> I'm very much on the side of education, tolerance, and social
> consequences, not administrative fiat or organized retaliation. I think
> Elad's call for the Rubygems folks to unilaterally drop libraries is
> misguided, but well-intentioned, and I don't think the same sort of call
> towards Pypi to drop "unacceptable" library names is a good idea either.
> However, I think it's hugely important and hugely beneficial that we
> welcome as many folks into the Python community as possible, and do our
> best to foster an environment where people can succeed regardless of who or
> what they are, and recent evidence suggests that that requires ongoing
> conversation and engagement, not just passive acceptance.
>
>
(The following is more of a satire reply to the original article than to
your
 message. Entertainment, but some real thoughts to ponder as well.
 I think your suggestion of education and encouragement are good
 ideas... maybe. However, I do feel this is a non-issue.)

This is more of a social argument than a programming issue
and I'd argue it's even a non-issue. Since I'm waiting for a render to
finish,
and we known in advance we're simply wasting time discussing social and
personal morality that won't amount to anything by next week, let's rock.
One
for the archives...

Are we to police the names of computer files over the idea that someone
might
be offended or excluded or isn't included enough? Are we to form a
committee of
name approvers? Do we delete or change potentially offensive names? What if
that means we break other code that depended upon those names? Who decides
what
is offensive? In what culture? In what language? In what era? In what
context?
Do we extend this idea to the names of other identifiers like variables and
functions?

    foo.fuck_off()

Does that get excluded as well? How about the documentation? A very slippery
slope.

Perhaps we could enforce a naming convention that takes into account a
balance
of module names, some which appeal to female, some to male, some to black,
to
white, yellow, brown, - Darwin's grab bag. Of course, who decides the ratios
that these names will appear in the module index? Do we mimic the human
population, the community population or is it more about equal slices all
around?

We could pick random words from the dictionary - My mistake. I just found
'fuck', 'bitch', 'sex',  'retard', 'shag', 'ass', 'womanizer' and 'hoe'
listed there too.
There are others as well! Maybe we can start a sister project to manage
offensive words found in the dictionary!  Or should that be a 'brother'
project?
A sibling project, perhaps? Hmm.

~~~

If I want to name a module `fuck_off_and_die`, I should be perfectly
allowed to
do so. It's my module, my code, my project - my choice. Does it make me an
insensitive prick? Maybe, but I'd be very hesitant to judge someone's
personal
character based solely on the name of a python module. To do otherwise would
render the one passing judgment a pretentious prick - really no better.

Does it lack professionalism? Perhaps. Is the module itself useful? Now
that's
a far more important question. The day we come up with a blacklist of
forbidden
names and start excluding what could otherwise have been useful bits of
publicly available code - a charitable work of skilled labor - I think we
will
have lost something far more valuable than having a G-rated module index.

That said, I appreciate and try to express professionalism in all that I do
and
encourage others to do the same but I also embrace the freedom of myself and
others to choose - even if I think that choice is sexist and distasteful.

I would rather experience the freedom of having the full latitude of life,
decision and emotion, than to cower in fear of being offended by the world
at
large. To think that I would be capable of being offended by the
arrangement of
a glyph in a programming package index, is a ridiculous thought indeed.

Yup.
-Modulok-

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#57635

From	Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info>
Date	2013-10-26 16:47 +0000
Message-ID	<526bf21e$0$29972$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
In reply to	#56930

On Wed, 16 Oct 2013 23:13:33 -0400, Owen Jacobson wrote:

> Last week, Elad Maidar wrote a fairly short but readable opinion
> piece[0] illustrating some long-standing social problems in the Ruby
> community,
[...]

Well, this has been a big disappointment. The author of this post, Owen 
Jacobson, appears to have made a fly-by post. Despite asking three 
questions, there's no sign that Owen stuck around to hear the answers. 
Pity, I would have been interested to hear what he had to say.

-- 
Steven

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csiph-web

Sexism in the Ruby community: how does the Python community manage it?

Contents

#56978

#57010

#57037

#56992

#56993

#56995

#56996

#56998

#56999

#57033

#57635