Path: csiph.com!v102.xanadu-bbs.net!xanadu-bbs.net!feeder.erje.net!eu.feeder.erje.net!newsfeed.xs4all.nl!newsfeed1.news.xs4all.nl!xs4all!post.news.xs4all.nl!not-for-mail Return-Path: X-Original-To: python-list@python.org Delivered-To: python-list@mail.python.org X-Spam-Status: OK 0.000 X-Spam-Evidence: '*H*': 1.00; '*S*': 0.00; 'url:pypi': 0.03; '16,': 0.03; 'argument': 0.05; 'subject:Python': 0.06; 'conventions': 0.07; 'detect': 0.07; 'pypi': 0.07; 'rest,': 0.07; 'skip:` 10': 0.07; 'think,': 0.07; 'variables': 0.07; 'advance': 0.07; 'absent': 0.09; 'acceptance.': 0.09; 'bits': 0.09; 'convention,': 0.09; 'excluding': 0.09; 'high-profile': 0.09; 'slices': 0.09; 'yeah,': 0.09; 'cc:addr:python-list': 0.11; 'python': 0.11; 'project,': 0.12; 'wrote': 0.14; 'question.': 0.14; 'random': 0.14; '9:13': 0.16; 'ass': 0.16; 'blacklist': 0.16; 'crop': 0.16; 'enough?': 0.16; 'excluded': 0.16; 'gem': 0.16; 'hmm.': 0.16; 'identifiers': 0.16; 'illustrating': 0.16; 'index.': 0.16; 'insensitive': 0.16; 'language?': 0.16; 'names?': 0.16; 'naming': 0.16; 'naming,': 0.16; 'nearest': 0.16; 'neutral': 0.16; 'ponder': 0.16; 'pypi.': 0.16; 'readable': 0.16; "someone's": 0.16; 'subject: \n ': 0.16; 'demonstrate': 0.16; 'folks': 0.16; 'so.': 0.16; 'language': 0.16; 'wrote:': 0.18; 'library': 0.18; 'wed,': 0.18; 'module': 0.19; 'trying': 0.19; 'community,': 0.19; 'passing': 0.19; 'possible,': 0.19; "python's": 0.19; 'thoughts': 0.19; 'examples': 0.20; '(the': 0.22; 'code,': 0.22; 'programming': 0.22; 'cc:addr:python.org': 0.22; 'either.': 0.24; 'module,': 0.24; 'passes': 0.24; 'questions:': 0.24; 'subject:community': 0.24; 'fairly': 0.24; 'regardless': 0.24; 'environment': 0.24; 'cc:2**0': 0.24; 'sort': 0.25; 'equivalent': 0.26; 'post': 0.26; 'header:In-Reply-To:1': 0.27; 'idea': 0.28; 'appear': 0.29; 'character': 0.29; 'words': 0.29; 'cool': 0.30; 'said,': 0.30; 'message-id:@mail.gmail.com': 0.30; "i'm": 0.30; 'included': 0.31; 'code': 0.31; 'too.': 0.31; 'towards': 0.31; 'argue': 0.31; 'enforce': 0.31; 'index,': 0.31; 'large.': 0.31; 'libraries': 0.31; 'project?': 0.31; 'publicly': 0.31; 'rails': 0.31; 'probably': 0.32; 'extend': 0.32; "we're": 0.32; 'url:python': 0.33; 'community': 0.33; 'trouble': 0.34; 'maybe': 0.34; 'subject:the': 0.34; "i'd": 0.34; 'world': 0.66; 'here': 0.66; 'reply': 0.66; 'side': 0.67; 'url:0': 0.67; 'bottom': 0.67; 'capable': 0.67; 'judge': 0.68; 'population': 0.68; 'social': 0.69; 'published': 0.71; 'labor': 0.74; 'day': 0.76; 'article': 0.77; 'ending': 0.78; 'lack': 0.78; 'potentially': 0.81; 'biases': 0.84; 'black,': 0.84; 'brown,': 0.84; 'depended': 0.84; 'embrace': 0.84; 'fuck': 0.84; 'hoe': 0.84; 'latitude': 0.84; 'male,': 0.84; 'maybe,': 0.84; 'offended': 0.84; 'racism,': 0.84; 'still.': 0.84; 'sue': 0.84; 'therapist': 0.84; 'white,': 0.84; 'beneficial': 0.91; 'gender': 0.91; 'passive': 0.91; 'choice.': 0.93; 'sex': 0.93; 'education,': 0.96; '2013': 0.98 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=lxOJR+5lIAuPYl8Lfmg1mpYMujN7sYwlFgv7hZndXlY=; b=IUCfWKIsHFQAe00lG6STFhMS8qY6Enrwf9euwuWMkxJuEoTZ2DFAviiYrqjj9mC8ig 3OhBNBn7wvhvVBH0JrdVoURhHgrGoUZRmTtmZmU9c/nm08aPWzNVyxeBwygzXqdeeXuM 1ZWh2iKly2iHZt8dxTaBlmwJILx23BtHMaYhgh5QlzGCTOQe2V243XLiu98zZvDWlugn Z9H3UV0nqHEaFADb3fp3Kom+GVmvxIlF6yMDDzRVR45ATmenI+4CwEIm1cUVbX7hhn8H WDg4p58MzMve+5/SshQMf0yzM52JoWyEt7C+WSyC4096XPLT6cahJGmWDtIVpXfck1kV j/Qg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.58.155.10 with SMTP id vs10mr684801veb.4.1382072877360; Thu, 17 Oct 2013 22:07:57 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <2013101623133337485-owenjacobson@grimoireca> References: <2013101623133337485-owenjacobson@grimoireca> Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2013 23:07:57 -0600 Subject: Re: Sexism in the Ruby community: how does the Python community manage it? From: Modulok To: Owen Jacobson Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b6720dae8abbc04e8fceae5 Cc: Python mailing list X-BeenThere: python-list@python.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion list for the Python programming language List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Newsgroups: comp.lang.python Message-ID: Lines: 360 NNTP-Posting-Host: 2001:888:2000:d::a6 X-Trace: 1382072885 news.xs4all.nl 15878 [2001:888:2000:d::a6]:37538 X-Complaints-To: abuse@xs4all.nl Xref: csiph.com comp.lang.python:57033 --047d7b6720dae8abbc04e8fceae5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Oct 16, 2013 at 9:13 PM, Owen Jacobson w= rote: > Last week, Elad Maidar wrote a fairly short but readable opinion piece[0] > illustrating some long-standing social problems in the Ruby community, > ending with a very specific call to action around naming conventions for > Ruby projects and gems. To save you the trouble of scrolling to the botto= m > of this post and clicking, here's the relevant bit: > > What is missing you ask? I think that there is no consideration in women >> when it comes to gem naming convention, here are a few gems that i found= in >> a 5 mintues search on Rubygems.org to demonstrate why women and other >> groups probably feel uncomfortable when trying to get into the Rails >> community: >> >> * retarded >> * bitch >> * hoe >> * womanizer >> * recursive_pimp_slap >> * miniskirt >> * childlabor >> * bj >> * sex >> * fuck >> * rape-me >> * therapist - yeah, It passes as a double meaning - but still. >> * shag >> * db_nazi >> * and ass >> >> While some of you may think this is a righteous callout - I think that a= s >> a community we need to strive to be as appealing as possible, there is >> nothing cool about naming your gem =93fuck=94 or =93retarded=94 and we a= s a >> community - need to stop this from happening as much as we can. >> > > Read the rest, it's pretty good. > > (A number of the named gems have been pulled by their authors.) > > It occurred to me to go digging around pypi - arguably[1] the Python > community's equivalent to gems - to see if I could find similar > institutionalized sexism. > > The good news: the specific examples Elad called out are STRIKINGLY absen= t > from pypi. By and large the published python packages are inobjectionable= . > Well done, "us", in as much as there is an "us" to congratulate. > > There are a few examples of the same sort of bad decision-making that are= , > I think, worth discussing: > > * SexMachine (https://pypi.python.org/pypi/**SexMachine/0.1.1- an attempt to detect the gender of nam= es, which=85 well, ask the nearest > boy named Sue - or girl named Leslie) > * sexytime (https://pypi.python.org/pypi/**sexytime/0.1.0 > ) > * pep8nazi (https://pypi.python.org/pypi/**pep8nazi/0.1- do we shove non-PEP8-compliant authors into "sho= wers" now?) > > So, two questions: > > 1. What social biases and problems *do* we unwittingly encourage by way o= f > community-tolerated behaviour? Where, if not through the conventions for > naming, do we encourage sexism, racism, and other mindlessly exclusionary > behaviour? > > 2. What kind of social pressure can we bring to bear to _keep_ Python's > package naming conventions as socially neutral as they are, if and when > some high-profile dirtbag decides this language is the best language? How > can we apply the same pressures to other parts of the Python community? > > 3. How can we reach out to the Ruby community and help *them* get past th= e > current crop of gender issues, and help them as a group to do better next > time? > > I'm very much on the side of education, tolerance, and social > consequences, not administrative fiat or organized retaliation. I think > Elad's call for the Rubygems folks to unilaterally drop libraries is > misguided, but well-intentioned, and I don't think the same sort of call > towards Pypi to drop "unacceptable" library names is a good idea either. > However, I think it's hugely important and hugely beneficial that we > welcome as many folks into the Python community as possible, and do our > best to foster an environment where people can succeed regardless of who = or > what they are, and recent evidence suggests that that requires ongoing > conversation and engagement, not just passive acceptance. > > (The following is more of a satire reply to the original article than to your message. Entertainment, but some real thoughts to ponder as well. I think your suggestion of education and encouragement are good ideas... maybe. However, I do feel this is a non-issue.) This is more of a social argument than a programming issue and I'd argue it's even a non-issue. Since I'm waiting for a render to finish, and we known in advance we're simply wasting time discussing social and personal morality that won't amount to anything by next week, let's rock. One for the archives... Are we to police the names of computer files over the idea that someone might be offended or excluded or isn't included enough? Are we to form a committee of name approvers? Do we delete or change potentially offensive names? What if that means we break other code that depended upon those names? Who decides what is offensive? In what culture? In what language? In what era? In what context? Do we extend this idea to the names of other identifiers like variables and functions? foo.fuck_off() Does that get excluded as well? How about the documentation? A very slipper= y slope. Perhaps we could enforce a naming convention that takes into account a balance of module names, some which appeal to female, some to male, some to black, to white, yellow, brown, - Darwin's grab bag. Of course, who decides the ratio= s that these names will appear in the module index? Do we mimic the human population, the community population or is it more about equal slices all around? We could pick random words from the dictionary - My mistake. I just found 'fuck', 'bitch', 'sex', 'retard', 'shag', 'ass', 'womanizer' and 'hoe' listed there too. There are others as well! Maybe we can start a sister project to manage offensive words found in the dictionary! Or should that be a 'brother' project? A sibling project, perhaps? Hmm. ~~~ If I want to name a module `fuck_off_and_die`, I should be perfectly allowed to do so. It's my module, my code, my project - my choice. Does it make me an insensitive prick? Maybe, but I'd be very hesitant to judge someone's personal character based solely on the name of a python module. To do otherwise woul= d render the one passing judgment a pretentious prick - really no better. Does it lack professionalism? Perhaps. Is the module itself useful? Now that's a far more important question. The day we come up with a blacklist of forbidden names and start excluding what could otherwise have been useful bits of publicly available code - a charitable work of skilled labor - I think we will have lost something far more valuable than having a G-rated module index. That said, I appreciate and try to express professionalism in all that I do and encourage others to do the same but I also embrace the freedom of myself an= d others to choose - even if I think that choice is sexist and distasteful. I would rather experience the freedom of having the full latitude of life, decision and emotion, than to cower in fear of being offended by the world at large. To think that I would be capable of being offended by the arrangement of a glyph in a programming package index, is a ridiculous thought indeed. Yup. -Modulok- --047d7b6720dae8abbc04e8fceae5 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



On Wed, Oct 16, 2013 at 9:13 PM, Owen Jacobson &l= t;owen.jacob= son@grimoire.ca> wrote:
Last week, Elad Maidar wrote a fairly short but readable o= pinion piece[0] illustrating some long-standing social problems in the Ruby= community, ending with a very specific call to action around naming conven= tions for Ruby projects and gems. To save you the trouble of scrolling to t= he bottom of this post and clicking, here's the relevant bit:

What is missing you ask? I think that there is no consideration in women wh= en it comes to gem naming convention, here are a few gems that i found in a= 5 mintues search on Rubygems.org to demonstrate why women and other groups= probably feel uncomfortable when trying to get into the Rails community:
* retarded
* bitch
* hoe
* womanizer
* recursive_pimp_slap
* miniskirt
* childlabor
* bj
* sex
* fuck
* rape-me
* therapist - yeah, It passes as a double meaning - but still.
* shag
* db_nazi
* and ass

While some of you may think this is a righteous callout - I think that as a= community we need to strive to be as appealing as possible, there is nothi= ng cool about naming your gem =93fuck=94 or =93retarded=94 and we as a comm= unity - need to stop this from happening as much as we can.

Read the rest, it's pretty good.

(A number of the named gems have been pulled by their authors.)

It occurred to me to go digging around pypi - arguably[1] the Python commun= ity's equivalent to gems - to see if I could find similar institutional= ized sexism.

The good news: the specific examples Elad called out are STRIKINGLY absent = from pypi. By and large the published python packages are inobjectionable. = Well done, "us", in as much as there is an "us" to cong= ratulate.

There are a few examples of the same sort of bad decision-making that are, = I think, worth discussing:

* SexMachine (https://pypi.python.org/pypi/SexMachine/0.1.1 - a= n attempt to detect the gender of names, which=85 well, ask the nearest boy= named Sue - or girl named Leslie)
* sexytime (https://pypi.python.org/pypi/sexytime/0.1.0)
* pep8nazi (https://pypi.python.org/pypi/pep8nazi/0.1 - do we shove= non-PEP8-compliant authors into "showers" now?)

So, two questions:

1. What social biases and problems *do* we unwittingly encourage by way of = community-tolerated behaviour? Where, if not through the conventions for na= ming, do we encourage sexism, racism, and other mindlessly exclusionary beh= aviour?

2. What kind of social pressure can we bring to bear to _keep_ Python's= package naming conventions as socially neutral as they are, if and when so= me high-profile dirtbag decides this language is the best language? How can= we apply the same pressures to other parts of the Python community?

3. How can we reach out to the Ruby community and help *them* get past the = current crop of gender issues, and help them as a group to do better next t= ime?

I'm very much on the side of education, tolerance, and social consequen= ces, not administrative fiat or organized retaliation. I think Elad's c= all for the Rubygems folks to unilaterally drop libraries is misguided, but= well-intentioned, and I don't think the same sort of call towards Pypi= to drop "unacceptable" library names is a good idea either. Howe= ver, I think it's hugely important and hugely beneficial that we welcom= e as many folks into the Python community as possible, and do our best to f= oster an environment where people can succeed regardless of who or what the= y are, and recent evidence suggests that that requires ongoing conversation= and engagement, not just passive acceptance.


(The following is more of a satire rep= ly to the original article than to your
=A0message. Entertainment= , but some real thoughts to ponder as well.=A0
=A0I think your su= ggestion of education and encouragement are good=A0
=A0ideas... maybe. However, I do feel this is a non-issue.)
=
This is more of a social argument than a programming issue
and I'd argue it's even a non-issue. Since I'm waiting= for a render to finish,
and we known in advance we're simply wasting time discussing socia= l and
personal morality that won't amount to anything by next= week, let's rock. One
for the archives...

Are we to police the names of computer files over the idea that = someone might
be offended or excluded or isn't included enoug= h? Are we to form a committee of
name approvers? Do we delete or = change potentially offensive names? What if
that means we break other code that depended upon those names? Who dec= ides what
is offensive? In what culture? In what language? In wha= t era? In what context?
Do we extend this idea to the names of ot= her identifiers like variables and
functions?

=A0 =A0 foo.fuck_off()
<= br>
Does that get excluded as well? How about the documentation? = A very slippery
slope.

Perhaps we could = enforce a naming convention that takes into account a balance
of module names, some which appeal to female, some to male, some to bl= ack, to
white, yellow, brown, - Darwin's grab bag. Of course,= who decides the ratios
that these names will appear in the modul= e index? Do we mimic the human
population, the community population or is it more about equal slices = all around?

We could pick random words from the di= ctionary - My mistake. I just found
'fuck', 'bitch= 9;, 'sex', =A0'retard', 'shag', 'ass', '= ;womanizer' and 'hoe' listed there too.
There are others as well! Maybe we can start a sister project to manag= e=A0
offensive words found in the dictionary! =A0Or should that b= e a 'brother' project?
A sibling project, perhaps? Hmm.

~~~

If I want to name a module= `fuck_off_and_die`, I should be perfectly allowed to
do so. It&#= 39;s my module, my code, my project - my choice. Does it make me an
insensitive prick? Maybe, but I'd be very hesitant to judge someon= e's personal
character based solely on the name of a python m= odule. To do otherwise would
render the one passing judgment a pr= etentious prick - really no better.

Does it lack professionalism? Perhaps. Is the module it= self useful? Now that's
a far more important question. The da= y we come up with a blacklist of forbidden
names and start exclud= ing what could otherwise have been useful bits of
publicly available code - a charitable work of skilled labor - I think= we will
have lost something far more valuable than having a G-ra= ted module index.

That said, I appreciate and try = to express professionalism in all that I do and
encourage others to do the same but I also embrace the freedom of myse= lf and
others to choose - even if I think that choice is sexist a= nd distasteful.

I would rather experience the free= dom of having the full latitude of life,
decision and emotion, than to cower in fear of being offended by the w= orld at
large. To think that I would be capable of being offended= by the arrangement of
a glyph in a programming package index, is= a ridiculous thought indeed.

Yup.
-Modulok-=A0
--047d7b6720dae8abbc04e8fceae5--