Groups > comp.lang.python > #56930 > unrolled thread

Sexism in the Ruby community: how does the Python community manage it?

Started by	Owen Jacobson <owen.jacobson@grimoire.ca>
First post	2013-10-16 23:13 -0400
Last post	2013-10-26 16:47 +0000
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#56988

From	Tim Delaney <timothy.c.delaney@gmail.com>
Date	2013-10-18 07:14 +1100
Message-ID	<mailman.1177.1382040895.18130.python-list@python.org>
In reply to	#56972

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On 18 October 2013 04:16, Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> wrote:

> On Thursday, October 17, 2013 11:07:48 AM UTC-4, Chris Angelico wrote:
> > Module names should be  descriptive, not fancy.
>
> Interesting comment, on a mailing list for a language named after a snake,
> especially by a guy who claims to prefer an language named after a fish :-)
>

That would be  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monty_Python not
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythonidae.

The snake has been adopted as a mascot (see the Python icon) but is not the
inspiration.

Tim Delaney

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#57000

From	Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com>
Date	2013-10-18 09:56 +1100
Message-ID	<mailman.1186.1382050591.18130.python-list@python.org>
In reply to	#56972

On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 4:16 AM, Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> wrote:
> On Thursday, October 17, 2013 11:07:48 AM UTC-4, Chris Angelico wrote:
>> Module names should be descriptive, not fancy.
>
> Interesting comment, on a mailing list for a language named after a snake, especially by a guy who claims to prefer an language named after a fish :-)

Heh, I do see the irony, but here's the deal: You have to get to know
a language somewhat before you can make an honest appraisal of it, and
that means knowing a lot more than its name. But you should be able to
know broadly what a module does based on its name, so that when you
see references to the module name in code, you have at least some idea
of what's going on. Here's a smattering of Python module names, from
the standard library:

8.1. datetime — Basic date and time types
8.11. pprint — Data pretty printer
9.6. random — Generate pseudo-random numbers
11.3. stat — Interpreting stat() results
12.6. sqlite3 — DB-API 2.0 interface for SQLite databases

All of them make it very clear what they're doing. Okay, so you can't
really learn much about sqlite3 other than that it interfaces with
sqlite3, whatever that is. If you had a module named "alsa", you
wouldn't know that that's a way of playing sound unless you know what
ALSA is elsewhere. But they're still linked fairly clearly with what
they do, on some level of "do". There are a few dodgier ones:

12.1. pickle — Python object serialization
(flavorful, fine once you know it, but a little unintuitive)
22.5. chunk — Read IFF chunked data
(heaps of things are chunked, but calling it "iff" would have been
just as confusing so there's probably no solution to this)

but, especially in networking, you can easily find what you want based
on an external requirement. Try searching the docs index for any
internet protocol name; if you get a hit, chances are very high that
it's a module that supports that. ("ip" is an exception, but "ipv4" or
"ipv6" will get you to the ipaddress module's description, at least.)

Pike is similar. Again, a few dodgy ones in the mix ("Remote" is an
RPC module, quite a few are buried inside a package like "Protocols"
or "Standards", etc), but by and large, module names follow the "Truly
Scrumptious" principle of sounding like what they are.

Now, to be fair, I should look at pypi.python.org and
modules.gotpike.org to compare against Ruby gems. Unfortunately I
can't pinpoint usage stats of any sort, but I can (in each case) get a
list of the most recently updated packages/modules, so hopefully the
packages that get updates are the ones people use. Python:

django-tornado
iso8601
fjd
mozilla-logger
dexy
vodafone-scraper
ipwhois
cashew
django-subdomains-handler
usethis-django-bootstrap

A few dodgy ones (I don't know what cashew does without clicking its
link), but mostly they're pretty descriptive. Pike modules are
organized into categories, which makes it too easy:

Public.Network.Pcap
Public.Tools.Language.Hyphenate
Database.EJDB
Public.Protocols.Jabber
Database.MongoDB

(The "Public" part is a packaging recommendation, and can basically be
ignored.) There are dodgy names around, though none have come up in
the five-most-recent-edits list here.

Now here's what I'm talking about, with Ruby. First off, any reference
to "gems" or precious stones in any way is given a special pass,
because of the environment (same as anything referencing Monty Python
would be in Python - it's not fair to compare against those). Some of
the names are descriptive:

mail
i18n
tzinfo
coffee-script
jquery-rails

But some are less clear:
nokogiri - an HTML/XML/etc parser (might mean something if I knew
Japanese, but all the docs are in English, so the name is a bit
orphanned; most languages prefer to name things in English, as it's
more internationally recognized)
arel - an "SQL AST manager" ??
cocaine - "A small library for doing (command) lines"
deface - lets you "customize ERB, Haml and Slim views"
polyamorous - though the description indicates that it's somewhat internal
therubyracer - interfaces with V8, the javascript engine
thor - "A scripting framework that replaces rake, sake and rubigen"

I know that all these are used, because they're all dependencies of a
particular gem I've used at work (Spree), and I got the list by
eyeballing this:

https://github.com/spree/spree_base_1_2/blob/master/Gemfile.lock

Most of them are names that I've seen getting installed during a Spree
installation.

This is what I mean. When module names aren't descriptive, code
becomes less clear. When language names aren't descriptive, very
little suffers.

ChrisA

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#57006

From	Roy Smith <roy@panix.com>
Date	2013-10-17 20:10 -0400
Message-ID	<roy-2B9771.20105417102013@news.panix.com>
In reply to	#57000

In article <mailman.1186.1382050591.18130.python-list@python.org>,
 Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> wrote:

> 12.1. pickle ‹ Python object serialization
> (flavorful, fine once you know it, but a little unintuitive)

Actually, pickle is a very descriptive term.  You might be thinking that 
a pickle is just a cucumber that's been soaked in brine, but the more 
generic meaning of pickle is to preserve something.  In the aviation 
world, for example, they talk of pickling an engine as a way to put it 
in long-term storage.  The analogy of putting data into long-term 
storage is perfectly reasonable.

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#57025

From	Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com>
Date	2013-10-18 14:45 +1100
Message-ID	<mailman.1196.1382067947.18130.python-list@python.org>
In reply to	#57006

On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 11:10 AM, Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> wrote:
> In article <mailman.1186.1382050591.18130.python-list@python.org>,
>  Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> 12.1. pickle ‹ Python object serialization
>> (flavorful, fine once you know it, but a little unintuitive)
>
> Actually, pickle is a very descriptive term.  You might be thinking that
> a pickle is just a cucumber that's been soaked in brine, but the more
> generic meaning of pickle is to preserve something.  In the aviation
> world, for example, they talk of pickling an engine as a way to put it
> in long-term storage.  The analogy of putting data into long-term
> storage is perfectly reasonable.

Good point. I thought of pickle as the food and the expression "in a
pickle", neither of which captures the essence as well as the notion
of preservation. Withdrawing the criticism - though it was minor even
to start with.

ChrisA

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#57022

From	Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info>
Date	2013-10-18 03:14 +0000
Message-ID	<5260a7a2$0$29981$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
In reply to	#56972

On Thu, 17 Oct 2013 10:16:24 -0700, Roy Smith wrote:

> On Thursday, October 17, 2013 11:07:48 AM UTC-4, Chris Angelico wrote:
>> Module names should be  descriptive, not fancy.
> 
> Interesting comment, on a mailing list for a language named after a
> snake, especially by a guy who claims to prefer an language named after
> a fish :-)

It's not named after a snake, but after a British comedy group, "Monty 
Python". And I daresay that Pike is named after a long stick with a spike 
and axe on the end. Just 'cos that would be cooler than naming it after 
the fish.

(I'm not sure whether the fish was named after the weapon, or the weapon 
after the fish. But I'm pretty sure one was named after the other.)

-- 
Steven

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#57028

From	Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com>
Date	2013-10-18 15:03 +1100
Message-ID	<mailman.1198.1382069443.18130.python-list@python.org>
In reply to	#57022

On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 2:14 PM, Steven D'Aprano
<steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> wrote:
> On Thu, 17 Oct 2013 10:16:24 -0700, Roy Smith wrote:
>
>> On Thursday, October 17, 2013 11:07:48 AM UTC-4, Chris Angelico wrote:
>>> Module names should be  descriptive, not fancy.
>>
>> Interesting comment, on a mailing list for a language named after a
>> snake, especially by a guy who claims to prefer an language named after
>> a fish :-)
>
> It's not named after a snake, but after a British comedy group, "Monty
> Python". And I daresay that Pike is named after a long stick with a spike
> and axe on the end. Just 'cos that would be cooler than naming it after
> the fish.

I don't know which it was named after (could also be a road, eg
turnpike), but the language's logo is the fish.

> (I'm not sure whether the fish was named after the weapon, or the weapon
> after the fish. But I'm pretty sure one was named after the other.)

Maybe. Or maybe they're just short words that came from completely
different sources. In any case, I don't deny the coolness of singing
"Gallant pikemen, valiant sworders" (see Yeomen of the Guard by
Gilbert and Sullivan) while coding in Pike... or playing the Spam Song
while coding in Python... hmm, maybe that's not so impressive, but it
is funny.

ChrisA

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#57039

From	Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk>
Date	2013-10-18 09:15 +0100
Message-ID	<mailman.1207.1382084408.18130.python-list@python.org>
In reply to	#57022

On 18/10/2013 04:14, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> On Thu, 17 Oct 2013 10:16:24 -0700, Roy Smith wrote:
>
>> On Thursday, October 17, 2013 11:07:48 AM UTC-4, Chris Angelico wrote:
>>> Module names should be  descriptive, not fancy.
>>
>> Interesting comment, on a mailing list for a language named after a
>> snake, especially by a guy who claims to prefer an language named after
>> a fish :-)
>
> It's not named after a snake, but after a British comedy group, "Monty
> Python". And I daresay that Pike is named after a long stick with a spike
> and axe on the end. Just 'cos that would be cooler than naming it after
> the fish.
>
> (I'm not sure whether the fish was named after the weapon, or the weapon
> after the fish. But I'm pretty sure one was named after the other.)
>
>

Thank you Steven for making me chuckle as the most famous episode of 
Dad's Army has just leapt into my mind :)

-- 
Roses are red,
Violets are blue,
Most poems rhyme,
But this one doesn't.

Mark Lawrence

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#57047

From	Robert Kern <robert.kern@gmail.com>
Date	2013-10-18 15:08 +0100
Message-ID	<mailman.1226.1382105352.18130.python-list@python.org>
In reply to	#57022

On 2013-10-18 04:14, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> On Thu, 17 Oct 2013 10:16:24 -0700, Roy Smith wrote:
>
>> On Thursday, October 17, 2013 11:07:48 AM UTC-4, Chris Angelico wrote:
>>> Module names should be  descriptive, not fancy.
>>
>> Interesting comment, on a mailing list for a language named after a
>> snake, especially by a guy who claims to prefer an language named after
>> a fish :-)
>
> It's not named after a snake, but after a British comedy group, "Monty
> Python". And I daresay that Pike is named after a long stick with a spike
> and axe on the end. Just 'cos that would be cooler than naming it after
> the fish.
>
> (I'm not sure whether the fish was named after the weapon, or the weapon
> after the fish. But I'm pretty sure one was named after the other.)

Common parent more like. "pike" or "pick" or any number of similar variants was 
a more general term applied to things with a pointed tip. The fish name is a 
shortening of "pike-fish", so it's obviously not the source of the word. The 
weapon only really comes into fashion a couple of centuries after the fish's 
name is first recorded, so it's not the source either.

P.S. It's nice to have access to an electronic copy of the OED.

-- 
Robert Kern

"I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma
  that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had
  an underlying truth."
   -- Umberto Eco

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#57048

From	Robert Kern <robert.kern@gmail.com>
Date	2013-10-18 15:09 +0100
Message-ID	<mailman.1227.1382105417.18130.python-list@python.org>
In reply to	#57022

On 2013-10-18 05:03, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 2:14 PM, Steven D'Aprano
> <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> wrote:
>> On Thu, 17 Oct 2013 10:16:24 -0700, Roy Smith wrote:
>>
>>> On Thursday, October 17, 2013 11:07:48 AM UTC-4, Chris Angelico wrote:
>>>> Module names should be  descriptive, not fancy.
>>>
>>> Interesting comment, on a mailing list for a language named after a
>>> snake, especially by a guy who claims to prefer an language named after
>>> a fish :-)
>>
>> It's not named after a snake, but after a British comedy group, "Monty
>> Python". And I daresay that Pike is named after a long stick with a spike
>> and axe on the end. Just 'cos that would be cooler than naming it after
>> the fish.
>
> I don't know which it was named after (could also be a road, eg
> turnpike), but the language's logo is the fish.

Our logo is a snake, so that's obviously not a good guide. :-)

-- 
Robert Kern

"I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma
  that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had
  an underlying truth."
   -- Umberto Eco

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#57052

From	ishish <ishish@domhain.de>
Date	2013-10-18 16:21 +0100
Message-ID	<mailman.1231.1382109672.18130.python-list@python.org>
In reply to	#57022

Am 18.10.2013 15:09, schrieb Robert Kern:
> On 2013-10-18 05:03, Chris Angelico wrote:
>> On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 2:14 PM, Steven D'Aprano
>> <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> wrote:
>>> On Thu, 17 Oct 2013 10:16:24 -0700, Roy Smith wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Thursday, October 17, 2013 11:07:48 AM UTC-4, Chris Angelico 
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> Module names should be  descriptive, not fancy.
>>>>
>>>> Interesting comment, on a mailing list for a language named after 
>>>> a
>>>> snake, especially by a guy who claims to prefer an language named 
>>>> after
>>>> a fish :-)
>>>
>>> It's not named after a snake, but after a British comedy group, 
>>> "Monty
>>> Python". And I daresay that Pike is named after a long stick with a 
>>> spike
>>> and axe on the end. Just 'cos that would be cooler than naming it 
>>> after
>>> the fish.
>>
>> I don't know which it was named after (could also be a road, eg
>> turnpike), but the language's logo is the fish.
>
> Our logo is a snake, so that's obviously not a good guide. :-)
>
> --
> Robert Kern
>
> "I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless 
> enigma
>  that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as
> though it had
>  an underlying truth."
>   -- Umberto Eco

I quote Guido:

"Apart from being a computer scientist, I'm also a fan of "Monty 
Python's Flying Circus" (a BBC comedy series from the seventies, in the 
-- unlikely -- case you didn't know). It occurred to me one day that I 
needed a name that was short, unique, and slightly mysterious. And I 
happened to be reading some scripts from the series at the time... So 
then I decided to call my language Python. But Python is not a joke. And 
don't you associate it with dangerous reptiles either! (If you need an 
icon, use an image of the 16-ton weight from the TV series or of a can 
of SPAM :-)"

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#57040

From	ishish <ishish@domhain.de>
Date	2013-10-18 09:57 +0100
Message-ID	<mailman.1214.1382089295.18130.python-list@python.org>
In reply to	#56972

Am 17.10.2013 18:16, schrieb Roy Smith:
> On Thursday, October 17, 2013 11:07:48 AM UTC-4, Chris Angelico 
> wrote:
>> Module names should be  descriptive, not fancy.
>
> Interesting comment, on a mailing list for a language named after a
> snake, especially by a guy who claims to prefer an language named
> after a fish :-)

As Tim already explained, it's named after Monty Python...

...Python FAQ 1.16.

"Do I have to like "Monty Python's Flying Circus"?"

"No, but it helps. Pythonistas like the occasional reference to SPAM 
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spam_%28Monty_Python%29), and of course, 
nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition..."

Sas

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#57045

From	Bob Hartwig <bobjects@gmail.com>
Date	2013-10-18 09:28 -0400
Message-ID	<mailman.1224.1382103016.18130.python-list@python.org>
In reply to	#56972

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

I think we should follow the lead of the radio and TV industry, and let the
FCC decide what's acceptable.  On second thought, that won't work - they
would let "therapist" through, and as we all know, that has a double
meaning.




On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 4:57 AM, ishish <ishish@domhain.de> wrote:

> Am 17.10.2013 18:16, schrieb Roy Smith:
>
>  On Thursday, October 17, 2013 11:07:48 AM UTC-4, Chris Angelico wrote:
>>
>>> Module names should be  descriptive, not fancy.
>>>
>>
>> Interesting comment, on a mailing list for a language named after a
>> snake, especially by a guy who claims to prefer an language named
>> after a fish :-)
>>
>
> As Tim already explained, it's named after Monty Python...
>
> ...Python FAQ 1.16.
>
> "Do I have to like "Monty Python's Flying Circus"?"
>
> "No, but it helps. Pythonistas like the occasional reference to SPAM (
> https://en.wikipedia.org/**wiki/Spam_%28Monty_Python%29<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spam_%28Monty_Python%29>),
> and of course, nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition..."
>
>
>
> Sas
> --
> https://mail.python.org/**mailman/listinfo/python-list<https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list>
>

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#57046

From	aurelien@xload.io (Aurélien DESBRIÈRES)
Date	2013-10-18 15:47 +0200
Message-ID	<mailman.1225.1382103462.18130.python-list@python.org>
In reply to	#56972

Strangely I have never seen sexism on python nor on ruby and the
stangest thing is that this subject seems to make more speach than how
think algorithm in python -_-'

Regards


Bob Hartwig <bobjects@gmail.com> writes:

> I think we should follow the lead of the radio and TV industry, and let the
> FCC decide what's acceptable.  On second thought, that won't work - they
> would let "therapist" through, and as we all know, that has a double
> meaning.
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 4:57 AM, ishish <ishish@domhain.de> wrote:
>
>> Am 17.10.2013 18:16, schrieb Roy Smith:
>>
>>  On Thursday, October 17, 2013 11:07:48 AM UTC-4, Chris Angelico wrote:
>>>
>>>> Module names should be  descriptive, not fancy.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Interesting comment, on a mailing list for a language named after a
>>> snake, especially by a guy who claims to prefer an language named
>>> after a fish :-)
>>>
>>
>> As Tim already explained, it's named after Monty Python...
>>
>> ...Python FAQ 1.16.
>>
>> "Do I have to like "Monty Python's Flying Circus"?"
>>
>> "No, but it helps. Pythonistas like the occasional reference to SPAM (
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/**wiki/Spam_%28Monty_Python%29<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spam_%28Monty_Python%29>),
>> and of course, nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition..."
>>
>>
>>
>> Sas
>> --
>> https://mail.python.org/**mailman/listinfo/python-list<https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list>
>>

-- 
Aurélien DESBRIÈRES
Run Free - Run GNU.org

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#57050

From	Nelle Varoquaux <nelle.varoquaux@gmail.com>
Date	2013-10-18 17:00 +0200
Message-ID	<mailman.1229.1382108834.18130.python-list@python.org>
In reply to	#56972

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

(I forgot to reply to all, so I'm adding python-list in cc back).

>> Strangely I have never seen sexism on python nor on ruby and the
> >> stangest thing is that this subject seems to make more speach than how
> >> think algorithm in python -_-'
> >>
> >
> > If you have any doubt sexisms exists in the ruby community, have a look
> at
> > the following link: http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/CouchDB_talk
> > This ended with Mike Gunderloy's resignation (
> > http://afreshcup.com/home/2009/4/28/a-painful-decision.html) from the
> > Ruby's activists and the beginning of RailsBridge, a project aimed at
> > making the Ruby community more friendly.
> >
> > Similar examples exists in the python community, thought I don't think it
> > ever reached the level of Aimonetti's talk.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > N
>
> That is not the mailing list of ruby but a feminist place which talk
> about the the picture that he have used for his speach.
>

I should have used another reference than this wiki to illustrate my point
(though, even if it is a "feminist" wiki, it describes the facts and only
the facts and has extensive references, which is not the case of the others
references that I have, which express their authors point of view).

Anyhow, the problem with this talk doesn't come from the picture and the
title of the talk, but with all the sexist "jokes" from it.

There are many other examples of sexisms in the Ruby community: this is
just the most striking and famous one.

AFAIK that woman picture have been also use many years ago in most of
> bus stop in france and no one says anything against that and some more
> hot picture.


Indeed, this is an advertisment for underwears, and I see no problem in
having such advertisment in bus stops.
(But I do see problem with french people complaining about a painting of
two men kissing...)
Whether this should be use at a technical conference, this is open to
debate (I sure don't think this is very professional).


> Feminist are feminist and most of time are right, but most of time
> forget to react on somethings, like for exemple when Nicolas Sarkozy
> whistle his wife like a dog at the end of his first national scroll the
> 14 July.
>
> Since Python never act in any ways against women, it should be fine to
> stop to spam the mailing list.
>

Whilst I do not have strong feelings whether this specific debate should go
on, I do think that questions that affect our community should be discussed
on this mailing list.
I don't think of the Python community as globally sexist, but I am very
glad that the PSF and Pycon's staff take this problem at heart.


>
> Regards
>
> >>
> >> Regards
> >>
> >>
> >> Bob Hartwig <bobjects@gmail.com> writes:
> >>
> >> > I think we should follow the lead of the radio and TV industry, and
> let
> >> the
> >> > FCC decide what's acceptable.  On second thought, that won't work -
> they
> >> > would let "therapist" through, and as we all know, that has a double
> >> > meaning.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 4:57 AM, ishish <ishish@domhain.de> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Am 17.10.2013 18:16, schrieb Roy Smith:
> >> >>
> >> >>  On Thursday, October 17, 2013 11:07:48 AM UTC-4, Chris Angelico
> wrote:
> >> >>>
> >> >>>> Module names should be  descriptive, not fancy.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Interesting comment, on a mailing list for a language named after a
> >> >>> snake, especially by a guy who claims to prefer an language named
> >> >>> after a fish :-)
> >> >>>
> >> >>
> >> >> As Tim already explained, it's named after Monty Python...
> >> >>
> >> >> ...Python FAQ 1.16.
> >> >>
> >> >> "Do I have to like "Monty Python's Flying Circus"?"
> >> >>
> >> >> "No, but it helps. Pythonistas like the occasional reference to SPAM
> (
> >> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/**wiki/Spam_%28Monty_Python%29<
> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spam_%28Monty_Python%29>),
> >> >> and of course, nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition..."
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Sas
> >> >> --
> >> >> https://mail.python.org/**mailman/listinfo/python-list<
> >> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list>
> >> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Aurélien DESBRIÈRES
> >> Run Free - Run GNU.org
> >> --
> >> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
> >>
>
> --
> Aurélien DESBRIÈRES
> Run Free - Run GNU.org
>

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#57016

From	Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info>
Date	2013-10-18 02:12 +0000
Message-ID	<526098fb$0$29981$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
In reply to	#56967

On Fri, 18 Oct 2013 02:07:48 +1100, Chris Angelico wrote:

> Thing is, it's all very well to avoid using one particular module
> because you don't like its name... but what happens when there are a
> goodly number of such ill-named modules? Let's suppose you don't like
> the name "readline" because it offends your religion. (I'm deliberately
> picking something that I can't imagine actually being offensive; my
> sincere and humble apologies if there is anyone who actually IS offended
> by that name.) You might be able to use libedit instead, but what if
> that name also is offensive to you? (Again, apologies if it really is.)
> How long are you going to poke around for alternative modules before you
> throw your hands up and say "This language sucks, all its modules have
> stupid names"?

Okay, I get that you're not actually talking about people being offended 
by modules literally called "readline" and "libedit". I'm not really sure 
what conclusion we're supposed to draw from this little thought-
experiment:

- We need a Committee For Decent Module Names to vet the names 
  allowed to be used for modules, libraries and frameworks lest 
  they offend somebody?

- If people are that easily offended, we're better off without 
  them in the community? 

- You're not actually talking about Python, but some other 
  hypothetical language community where 8 out of 10 module 
  authors have the emotional maturity of a fourteen-year-old boy?

- Something else?

> Or do you mean that you'd use something despite its offensive name,
> because the name doesn't bother you? If so, awesome for you, but
> unfortunately not everyone is so generous :)

Really? I'm not actually sure that would be so awesome.

I would be far more annoyed if people *used* a module called 
"kill_all_redheads" than by the mere existence of such a module. If the 
module exists, and actually does something useful, well, that's one 
immature or crackpot individual. Or perhaps its meant to be taken 
ironically, or as a joke, or the author is making some obscure point I'm 
not smart enough to get. Whatever. But if many people actually used this 
module, when they could use something else, or fork it under a different 
name, or re-engineer its functionality, that suggests that maybe they see 
nothing wrong with the sentiments expressed by it. And that would 
distress me more than the module name itself.

Some yahoo has written a module called "upskirt"? Pfft, that's what 
yahoos do. I don't condone it, but as an isolated incident I don't lose 
any sleep over it either. That same module is (hypothetically) put into 
the standard library under that name, or widely used throughout the 
community? *That* would be a worry.

> Personally, I would avoid using profane names, if only because I don't
> like trying to explain to my boss what it is I'm using.

So you only use sacred names? Isn't that blasphemous?

> "You use Python?
> What's that?" "It's a language, named after a comedy group." "Great!" -
> vs - "You use Brainf--? What's that?" "Uhh... it's a language... that I
> don't like to say the name of. Uhh...." - awkward. 

But not *anywhere* near as awkward as explain why you're using Brainfuck 
instead of, well, *just about any other friggin' language in the world*. 
It's a language designed to be mind-blowingly difficult to use. And 
you're using it instead of Forth or APL because...?

I'm not actually missing the point. I'm pointing out that you appear to 
be inventing a problem that doesn't exist. When was the last time you 
were in the position of having to choose whether or not to use an actual 
useful product that had an embarrassing or offensive name?

> Same with module
> names. When I watched a Ruby app installing itself, I googled a few of
> the gem names out of morbid curiosity, and to be quite frank, I dislike
> a lot of them. Module names should be descriptive, not fancy. And I
> really don't think they need profanity, which some people apparently
> disagree with.

Ah, now we're getting somewhere. Are you suggesting that the Ruby 
community does have a problem with obscene names that are not just 
widespread, but in widespread use? Well, that's certainly an interesting 
data point.

-- 
Steven

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#57027

From	Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com>
Date	2013-10-18 15:00 +1100
Message-ID	<mailman.1197.1382068810.18130.python-list@python.org>
In reply to	#57016

On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 1:12 PM, Steven D'Aprano
<steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> wrote:
> On Fri, 18 Oct 2013 02:07:48 +1100, Chris Angelico wrote:
>
>> Thing is, it's all very well to avoid using one particular module
>> because you don't like its name... but what happens when there are a
>> goodly number of such ill-named modules? Let's suppose you don't like
>> the name "readline" because it offends your religion. (I'm deliberately
>> picking something that I can't imagine actually being offensive; my
>> sincere and humble apologies if there is anyone who actually IS offended
>> by that name.) You might be able to use libedit instead, but what if
>> that name also is offensive to you? (Again, apologies if it really is.)
>> How long are you going to poke around for alternative modules before you
>> throw your hands up and say "This language sucks, all its modules have
>> stupid names"?
>
> Okay, I get that you're not actually talking about people being offended
> by modules literally called "readline" and "libedit". I'm not really sure
> what conclusion we're supposed to draw from this little thought-
> experiment:

It was said previously that the language wasn't at fault, the
community was. My point is that, if a large proportion of third-party
modules are equally offensive, the language _may as well_ be the
problem, because sooner or later you're going to run into a problem.

> Some yahoo has written a module called "upskirt"? Pfft, that's what
> yahoos do. I don't condone it, but as an isolated incident I don't lose
> any sleep over it either. That same module is (hypothetically) put into
> the standard library under that name, or widely used throughout the
> community? *That* would be a worry.

What if that module happens to be the very best tool for some job? Do
you roll your own clone of it just to avoid the name? If not, it WILL
eventually be widely used in the community.

>> Personally, I would avoid using profane names, if only because I don't
>> like trying to explain to my boss what it is I'm using.
>
> So you only use sacred names? Isn't that blasphemous?

Okay. Specific example: I created a debugging feature a while ago that
I called "idkfa". You'll probably instantly recognize the reference.
Trouble is, my boss has a pathological dislike for games and
everything to do with them, so he objected to that feature, just
because of its name. (I, being quite definitely Chaotic Neutral on the
alignment scale, therefore vowed to put as many gaming references as
possible into my code from there on in... but to veil them a bit so
they wouldn't offend.) I tend to avoid profanity anyway, but what I'm
getting at here is avoidance of what will cause offense; to most of
you, a gaming reference won't cause any, so it doesn't matter, but to
me it did.

>> "You use Python?
>> What's that?" "It's a language, named after a comedy group." "Great!" -
>> vs - "You use Brainf--? What's that?" "Uhh... it's a language... that I
>> don't like to say the name of. Uhh...." - awkward.
>
> But not *anywhere* near as awkward as explain why you're using Brainfuck
> instead of, well, *just about any other friggin' language in the world*.
> It's a language designed to be mind-blowingly difficult to use. And
> you're using it instead of Forth or APL because...?

Yeah, sure, but I had some trouble explaining my use of Pike, since
its history and derivation are about MUDs - games. And I had to write
my own client for a particular service of ours because basic
telnet/netcat wasn't sufficient and I couldn't bring in a MUD client
because that's gaming. See above re his dislike of games.

> I'm not actually missing the point. I'm pointing out that you appear to
> be inventing a problem that doesn't exist. When was the last time you
> were in the position of having to choose whether or not to use an actual
> useful product that had an embarrassing or offensive name?

When I wrote my own socket-services client rather than just deploying
a MUD client, as mentioned above. I don't remember what exactly I
needed other than readline and a socket, but it was something simple
that most MUD clients have - probably aliases or something - and I had
to write my own client rather than use an off-the-shelf. The software
was fine, the alternative was inferior, and it was a name problem.

>> Same with module
>> names. When I watched a Ruby app installing itself, I googled a few of
>> the gem names out of morbid curiosity, and to be quite frank, I dislike
>> a lot of them. Module names should be descriptive, not fancy. And I
>> really don't think they need profanity, which some people apparently
>> disagree with.
>
> Ah, now we're getting somewhere. Are you suggesting that the Ruby
> community does have a problem with obscene names that are not just
> widespread, but in widespread use? Well, that's certainly an interesting
> data point.

Not obscene in most cases, but certainly immature. See my other post
for a quick run-down based on what I eyeballed in Spree's deps.

ChrisA

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#56986

From	Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be>
Date	2013-10-17 21:26 +0200
Message-ID	<mailman.1176.1382040252.18130.python-list@python.org>
In reply to	#56960

Op 17-10-13 16:38, Danyelle Davis schreef:
> I am a woman and all I can say to these things is.. Bringing light to
> these things do nothing but give attention to the attention seeking..
> yea the names are dumb.  But does it ever stop me. No.  Mainly because
> ignore the college/boyish mentality that is associated with names like
> that.

If that is correct than that speaks volumes for the sorry state the
python community would be in. Just imagine there were modules with names
that had racist or homofobic overtones. Would you suggest bringing
light to these things would do nothing but give attention to the
attention seeking?

If bringing such things to light only gives attention to the attention
seeking, that means the community is still soaked in bigotry and I
hope the community is better than that.

-- 
Antoon Pardon

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#56966

From	Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk>
Date	2013-10-17 16:03 +0100
Message-ID	<mailman.1164.1382022308.18130.python-list@python.org>
In reply to	#56930

On 17/10/2013 04:13, Owen Jacobson wrote:

It is no business of the Python community how the Ruby community manages 
sexism or any other ism.

-- 
Roses are red,
Violets are blue,
Most poems rhyme,
But this one doesn't.

Mark Lawrence

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#56969

From	Paul Pittlerson <menkomigen6@gmail.com>
Date	2013-10-17 09:43 -0700
Message-ID	<c9f59a2b-dbd1-4404-a6f5-374230988add@googlegroups.com>
In reply to	#56930

What we need to do is A) Prove that we are not sexist and racist by excluding and intolerating people who do not agree with. B) Head on over to the Ruby mailing list and make a thread called "Hey guys we are the python people, and can you learn to behave, ok plz?" wherein we detail to them what we think they are doing wrong and how we, in our superior moral judgment, think they ought to improve themselves, that'll teach them not to be sexist and racist alright.

I think that is what OP is suggesting we do, if it's not then I really don't know what it is.

I've sometimes been curious why programming in general, and python included is a male dominated field, well I'm glad that OP has figured out it's just because we scare all the women away with our overt sexism and racism naming conventions. 

Great thread, just great.

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#56974

From	MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com>
Date	2013-10-17 18:37 +0100
Message-ID	<mailman.1167.1382031441.18130.python-list@python.org>
In reply to	#56969

On 17/10/2013 17:43, Paul Pittlerson wrote:
> What we need to do is A) Prove that we are not sexist and racist by
> excluding and intolerating people who do not agree with. B) Head on
> over to the Ruby mailing list and make a thread called "Hey guys we
> are the python people, and can you learn to behave, ok plz?" wherein
> we detail to them what we think they are doing wrong and how we, in
> our superior moral judgment, think they ought to improve themselves,
> that'll teach them not to be sexist and racist alright.
>
> I think that is what OP is suggesting we do, if it's not then I
> really don't know what it is.
>
> I've sometimes been curious why programming in general, and python
> included is a male dominated field, well I'm glad that OP has figured
> out it's just because we scare all the women away with our overt
> sexism and racism naming conventions.
>
It's interesting to note that, in the early days, programming was
thought to be a suitable job for a woman because, after all, it
involved typing, so basically it was just clerical activity!

> Great thread, just great.
>

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csiph-web

Sexism in the Ruby community: how does the Python community manage it?

Contents

#56988

#57000

#57006

#57025

#57022

#57028

#57039

#57047

#57048

#57052

#57040

#57045

#57046

#57050

#57016

#57027

#56986

#56966

#56969

#56974