Path: csiph.com!v102.xanadu-bbs.net!xanadu-bbs.net!news.mixmin.net!feeds.phibee-telecom.net!newsfeed.xs4all.nl!newsfeed4.news.xs4all.nl!xs4all!newsgate.cistron.nl!newsgate.news.xs4all.nl!post.news.xs4all.nl!not-for-mail Return-Path: X-Original-To: python-list@python.org Delivered-To: python-list@mail.python.org X-Spam-Status: OK 0.014 X-Spam-Evidence: '*H*': 0.97; '*S*': 0.00; 'wiki': 0.03; 'algorithm': 0.04; 'subject:Python': 0.06; 'comment,': 0.09; 'facts': 0.09; 'indeed,': 0.09; 'references,': 0.09; 'psf': 0.10; 'cc:addr :python-list': 0.11; 'python': 0.11; '>>': 0.16; 'anyhow,': 0.16; 'complaining': 0.16; 'dog': 0.16; 'expects': 0.16; 'gnu.org': 0.16; 'helps.': 0.16; 'illustrate': 0.16; 'nicolas': 0.16; 'pythonistas': 0.16; 'roy': 0.16; 'stops.': 0.16; 'subject: \n ': 0.16; 'through,': 0.16; 'url:html)': 0.16; 'wiki,': 0.16; 'thursday,': 0.16; ':-)': 0.16; 'language': 0.16; 'wrote:': 0.18; 'all,': 0.19; 'module': 0.19; '<': 0.19; '(but': 0.19; 'community,': 0.19; "python's": 0.19; 'examples': 0.20; 'seems': 0.21; '>>>': 0.22; 'email addr:gmail.com>': 0.22; 'mike': 0.22; 'cc:addr:python.org': 0.22; '>>>': 0.24; 'exists': 0.24; 'faq': 0.24; 'scroll': 0.24; 'subject:community': 0.24; 'url:home': 0.24; 'decide': 0.24; 'fine': 0.24; 'cheers,': 0.24; 'cc:2**0': 0.24; 'cc:no real name:2**0': 0.24; '>': 0.26; 'references': 0.26; 'second': 0.26; 'header:In-Reply-To:1': 0.27; 'point': 0.28; 'chris': 0.29; 'on,': 0.29; 'am,': 0.29; 'tim': 0.29; "doesn't": 0.30; 'forgot': 0.30; 'have,': 0.30; 'especially': 0.30; 'message-id:@mail.gmail.com': 0.30; "i'm": 0.30; 'url:mailman': 0.30; 'url:wiki': 0.31; '"do': 0.31; '>>>>': 0.31; 'flying': 0.31; 'globally': 0.31; 'men': 0.31; 'url:wikipedia': 0.31; 'writes:': 0.31; 'run': 0.32; 'another': 0.32; 'open': 0.33; 'says': 0.33; 'url:python': 0.33; 'community': 0.33; 'ago': 0.33; 'beginning': 0.33; 'bus': 0.33; 'fri,': 0.33; 'subject:the': 0.34; 'problem': 0.35; 'but': 0.35; 'received:google.com': 0.35; 'there': 0.35; 'doubt': 0.36; 'whilst': 0.36; 'url:listinfo': 0.36; 'subject:?': 0.36; 'similar': 0.36; 'url:org': 0.36; 'should': 0.36; 'two': 0.37; 'list': 0.37; 'project': 0.37; 'level': 0.37; 'list.': 0.37; 'skip:& 10': 0.38; 'anything': 0.39; 'skip:& 20': 0.39; 'sure': 0.39; 'mailing': 0.39; 'url:mail': 0.40; 'even': 0.60; 'guy': 0.60; 'radio': 0.60; 'wife': 0.60; 'most': 0.60; 'free': 0.61; 'affect': 0.61; 'french': 0.61; 'staff': 0.61; 'first': 0.61; 'national': 0.62; 'making': 0.63; 'act': 0.63; 'such': 0.63; 'reached': 0.63; 'our': 0.64; 'more': 0.64; 'reply': 0.66; 'debate': 0.68; 'nobody': 0.68; 'subject': 0.69; 'url:4': 0.69; 'link:': 0.72; 'url:%1': 0.72; 'to:charset:iso-8859-1': 0.74; 'industry,': 0.78; 'glad': 0.83; '"do': 0.84; 'describes': 0.84; 'feminist': 0.84; 'fish': 0.84; 'july.': 0.84; 'picture.': 0.84; 'sas': 0.84; 'feelings': 0.91; 'talk,': 0.91; 'hot': 0.96; 'woman': 0.96; 'picture': 0.97; '2013': 0.98 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=Qp34XBs3ZJd3bF+bPpOsLlCOs4Gj7hDAybrbYA1Jq+A=; b=hkvorBZJNup/zFiH4C1LEJi3JfNaPXQwbeLFBBQnVVqKBmiEHrvZhWwBpPH1OnsAKd QTsDGZIDcszaIeuGNu4jh36TbAoJTwOv+ILITaZRlEE/t30QxkAwNd8L98xaGv6IA9sC Bswyt7Xp17PnbwTC7ISv7rscT22kCFD2oALMIckhytIHRzMbeHrElBLgph6lBb7rmS3R Q0JnsgzuPFd3p475hHTK7OIwQ9m6MkVrb80XwUhRq3Xq0OFoVRS+ZYjdqLgEzvohs2TU sTN401Dk6YP+KcIcHJnD2Pge6DrkpVFRyqxPRF3Lhj331X/Rk9tCv1nDKP7syGmk3zrL 3H+g== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.68.221.233 with SMTP id qh9mr3465610pbc.103.1382108415037; Fri, 18 Oct 2013 08:00:15 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <878uxqy6qk.fsf@unicorn.home> References: <2013101623133337485-owenjacobson@grimoireca> <6f40de6478bf4f43c6876b517d331fae@home.minuskel.de> <87d2n2y9lu.fsf@unicorn.home> <878uxqy6qk.fsf@unicorn.home> Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2013 17:00:14 +0200 Subject: Re: Sexism in the Ruby community: how does the Python community manage it? From: Nelle Varoquaux To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Aur=E9lien_DESBRI=C8RES?= Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e89a8ff251781e9a0304e90531c8 Cc: python-list@python.org X-BeenThere: python-list@python.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion list for the Python programming language List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Newsgroups: comp.lang.python Message-ID: Lines: 304 NNTP-Posting-Host: 2001:888:2000:d::a6 X-Trace: 1382108834 news.xs4all.nl 15936 [2001:888:2000:d::a6]:35783 X-Complaints-To: abuse@xs4all.nl Xref: csiph.com comp.lang.python:57050 --e89a8ff251781e9a0304e90531c8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable (I forgot to reply to all, so I'm adding python-list in cc back). >> Strangely I have never seen sexism on python nor on ruby and the > >> stangest thing is that this subject seems to make more speach than how > >> think algorithm in python -_-' > >> > > > > If you have any doubt sexisms exists in the ruby community, have a look > at > > the following link: http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/CouchDB_talk > > This ended with Mike Gunderloy's resignation ( > > http://afreshcup.com/home/2009/4/28/a-painful-decision.html) from the > > Ruby's activists and the beginning of RailsBridge, a project aimed at > > making the Ruby community more friendly. > > > > Similar examples exists in the python community, thought I don't think = it > > ever reached the level of Aimonetti's talk. > > > > Cheers, > > N > > That is not the mailing list of ruby but a feminist place which talk > about the the picture that he have used for his speach. > I should have used another reference than this wiki to illustrate my point (though, even if it is a "feminist" wiki, it describes the facts and only the facts and has extensive references, which is not the case of the others references that I have, which express their authors point of view). Anyhow, the problem with this talk doesn't come from the picture and the title of the talk, but with all the sexist "jokes" from it. There are many other examples of sexisms in the Ruby community: this is just the most striking and famous one. AFAIK that woman picture have been also use many years ago in most of > bus stop in france and no one says anything against that and some more > hot picture. Indeed, this is an advertisment for underwears, and I see no problem in having such advertisment in bus stops. (But I do see problem with french people complaining about a painting of two men kissing...) Whether this should be use at a technical conference, this is open to debate (I sure don't think this is very professional). > Feminist are feminist and most of time are right, but most of time > forget to react on somethings, like for exemple when Nicolas Sarkozy > whistle his wife like a dog at the end of his first national scroll the > 14 July. > > Since Python never act in any ways against women, it should be fine to > stop to spam the mailing list. > Whilst I do not have strong feelings whether this specific debate should go on, I do think that questions that affect our community should be discussed on this mailing list. I don't think of the Python community as globally sexist, but I am very glad that the PSF and Pycon's staff take this problem at heart. > > Regards > > >> > >> Regards > >> > >> > >> Bob Hartwig writes: > >> > >> > I think we should follow the lead of the radio and TV industry, and > let > >> the > >> > FCC decide what's acceptable. On second thought, that won't work - > they > >> > would let "therapist" through, and as we all know, that has a double > >> > meaning. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 4:57 AM, ishish wrote: > >> > > >> >> Am 17.10.2013 18:16, schrieb Roy Smith: > >> >> > >> >> On Thursday, October 17, 2013 11:07:48 AM UTC-4, Chris Angelico > wrote: > >> >>> > >> >>>> Module names should be descriptive, not fancy. > >> >>>> > >> >>> > >> >>> Interesting comment, on a mailing list for a language named after = a > >> >>> snake, especially by a guy who claims to prefer an language named > >> >>> after a fish :-) > >> >>> > >> >> > >> >> As Tim already explained, it's named after Monty Python... > >> >> > >> >> ...Python FAQ 1.16. > >> >> > >> >> "Do I have to like "Monty Python's Flying Circus"?" > >> >> > >> >> "No, but it helps. Pythonistas like the occasional reference to SPA= M > ( > >> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/**wiki/Spam_%28Monty_Python%29< > >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spam_%28Monty_Python%29>), > >> >> and of course, nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition..." > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Sas > >> >> -- > >> >> https://mail.python.org/**mailman/listinfo/python-list< > >> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list> > >> >> > >> > >> -- > >> Aur=E9lien DESBRI=C8RES > >> Run Free - Run GNU.org > >> -- > >> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list > >> > > -- > Aur=E9lien DESBRI=C8RES > Run Free - Run GNU.org > --e89a8ff251781e9a0304e90531c8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
(I forgot to reply to all, so I'm adding python-list i= n cc back).=A0
>> Strangely I have never seen sexism on python nor on ruby and the >> stangest thing is that this subject seems to make more speach than= how
>> think algorithm in python -_-'
>>
>
> If you have any doubt sexisms exists in the ruby community, have a loo= k at
> the following link: http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/CouchDB_talk=
> This ended with Mike Gunderloy's resignation (
> http://afreshcup.com/home/2009/4/28/a-painful-decision.= html) from the
> Ruby's activists and the beginning of RailsBridge, a project aimed= at
> making the Ruby community more friendly.
>
> Similar examples exists in the python community, thought I don't t= hink it
> ever reached the level of Aimonetti's talk.
>
> Cheers,
> N

That is not the mailing list of ruby but a feminist place which talk<= br> about the the picture that he have used for his speach.

I should have used another reference than this wiki to ill= ustrate my point (though, even if it is a "feminist" wiki, it des= cribes the facts and only the facts and has extensive references, which is = not the case of the others references that I have, which express their auth= ors point of view).=A0

Anyhow, the problem with this talk doesn't come fro= m the picture and the title of the talk, but with all the sexist "joke= s" from it.

There are many other examples of = sexisms in the Ruby community: this is just the most striking and famous on= e.

AFAIK that woman picture have been also use many years ago in most of
bus stop in france and no one says anything against that and some more
hot picture.=A0

Indeed, this is an advertis= ment for underwears, and I see no problem in having such advertisment in bu= s stops.
(But I do see problem with french people complaining abo= ut a painting of two men kissing...)
Whether this should be use at a technical conference, this is open to = debate (I sure don't think this is very professional).
=A0
Feminist are feminist and most of time are right, but most of time
forget to react on somethings, like for exemple when Nicolas Sarkozy
whistle his wife like a dog at the end of his first national scroll the
14 July.

Since Python never act in any ways against women, it should be fine to
stop to spam the mailing list.

Whilst I= do not have strong feelings whether this specific debate should go on, I d= o think that questions that affect our community should be discussed on thi= s mailing list.
I don't think of the Python community as globally sexist, but I am= very glad that the PSF and Pycon's staff take this problem at heart.
=A0

Regards

>>
>> Regards
>>
>>
>> Bob Hartwig <bobjects@gma= il.com> writes:
>>
>> > I think we should follow the lead of the radio and TV industr= y, and let
>> the
>> > FCC decide what's acceptable. =A0On second thought, that = won't work - they
>> > would let "therapist" through, and as we all know, = that has a double
>> > meaning.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 4:57 AM, ishish <ishish@domhain.de> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Am 17.10.2013 18:16, schrieb Roy Smith:
>> >>
>> >> =A0On Thursday, October 17, 2013 11:07:48 AM UTC-4, Chris= Angelico wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>> Module names should be =A0descriptive, not fancy.=
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Interesting comment, on a mailing list for a language= named after a
>> >>> snake, especially by a guy who claims to prefer an la= nguage named
>> >>> after a fish :-)
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >> As Tim already explained, it's named after Monty Pyth= on...
>> >>
>> >> ...Python FAQ 1.16.
>> >>
>> >> "Do I have to like "Monty Python's Flying C= ircus"?"
>> >>
>> >> "No, but it helps. Pythonistas like the occasional r= eference to SPAM (
>> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/**wiki/Spam_%28Monty_= Python%29<
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spam_%28Monty_Python%29= >),
>> >> and of course, nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition...&= quot;
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Sas
>> >> --
>> >> https://mail.python.org/**mailman/listinfo/pyth= on-list<
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list&g= t;
>> >>
>>
>> --
>> Aur=E9lien DESBRI=C8RES
>> Run Free - Run GNU.org
>> --
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list >>

--
Aur=E9lien DESBRI=C8RES
Run Free - Run GNU.org

--e89a8ff251781e9a0304e90531c8--