Groups > comp.lang.python > #56930 > unrolled thread

Sexism in the Ruby community: how does the Python community manage it?

Started by	Owen Jacobson <owen.jacobson@grimoire.ca>
First post	2013-10-16 23:13 -0400
Last post	2013-10-26 16:47 +0000
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#56930 — Sexism in the Ruby community: how does the Python community manage it?

From	Owen Jacobson <owen.jacobson@grimoire.ca>
Date	2013-10-16 23:13 -0400
Subject	Sexism in the Ruby community: how does the Python community manage it?
Message-ID	<2013101623133337485-owenjacobson@grimoireca>

Last week, Elad Maidar wrote a fairly short but readable opinion 
piece[0] illustrating some long-standing social problems in the Ruby 
community, ending with a very specific call to action around naming 
conventions for Ruby projects and gems. To save you the trouble of 
scrolling to the bottom of this post and clicking, here's the relevant 
bit:

> What is missing you ask? I think that there is no consideration in 
> women when it comes to gem naming convention, here are a few gems that 
> i found in a 5 mintues search on Rubygems.org to demonstrate why women 
> and other groups probably feel uncomfortable when trying to get into 
> the Rails community:
> 
> * retarded
> * bitch
> * hoe
> * womanizer
> * recursive_pimp_slap
> * miniskirt
> * childlabor
> * bj
> * sex
> * fuck
> * rape-me
> * therapist - yeah, It passes as a double meaning - but still.
> * shag
> * db_nazi
> * and ass
> 
> While some of you may think this is a righteous callout - I think that 
> as a community we need to strive to be as appealing as possible, there 
> is nothing cool about naming your gem “fuck” or “retarded” and we as a 
> community - need to stop this from happening as much as we can.

Read the rest, it's pretty good.

(A number of the named gems have been pulled by their authors.)

It occurred to me to go digging around pypi - arguably[1] the Python 
community's equivalent to gems - to see if I could find similar 
institutionalized sexism.

The good news: the specific examples Elad called out are STRIKINGLY 
absent from pypi. By and large the published python packages are 
inobjectionable. Well done, "us", in as much as there is an "us" to 
congratulate.

There are a few examples of the same sort of bad decision-making that 
are, I think, worth discussing:

* SexMachine (https://pypi.python.org/pypi/SexMachine/0.1.1 - an 
attempt to detect the gender of names, which… well, ask the nearest boy 
named Sue - or girl named Leslie)
* sexytime (https://pypi.python.org/pypi/sexytime/0.1.0)
* pep8nazi (https://pypi.python.org/pypi/pep8nazi/0.1 - do we shove 
non-PEP8-compliant authors into "showers" now?)

So, two questions:

1. What social biases and problems *do* we unwittingly encourage by way 
of community-tolerated behaviour? Where, if not through the conventions 
for naming, do we encourage sexism, racism, and other mindlessly 
exclusionary behaviour?

2. What kind of social pressure can we bring to bear to _keep_ Python's 
package naming conventions as socially neutral as they are, if and when 
some high-profile dirtbag decides this language is the best language? 
How can we apply the same pressures to other parts of the Python 
community?

3. How can we reach out to the Ruby community and help *them* get past 
the current crop of gender issues, and help them as a group to do 
better next time?

I'm very much on the side of education, tolerance, and social 
consequences, not administrative fiat or organized retaliation. I think 
Elad's call for the Rubygems folks to unilaterally drop libraries is 
misguided, but well-intentioned, and I don't think the same sort of 
call towards Pypi to drop "unacceptable" library names is a good idea 
either. However, I think it's hugely important and hugely beneficial 
that we welcome as many folks into the Python community as possible, 
and do our best to foster an environment where people can succeed 
regardless of who or what they are, and recent evidence suggests that 
that requires ongoing conversation and engagement, not just passive 
acceptance.

So, how should we be more awesome?

-o

(For some additional context, and why I think passive acceptance isn't 
good enough, see 
http://iangent.blogspot.ca/2013/10/the-petrie-multiplier-why-attack-on.html 
.)

[0] 
http://devandpencil.herokuapp.com/blog/2013/10/09/being-an-asshole-does-not-make-you-awesome/ 

[1] as in let's not have a packaging or language mudfight over it, 
please? Pretty please?

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#56931

From	random832@fastmail.us
Date	2013-10-17 00:22 -0400
Message-ID	<mailman.1142.1381983772.18130.python-list@python.org>
In reply to	#56930

On Wed, Oct 16, 2013, at 23:13, Owen Jacobson wrote:
> > * therapist - yeah, It passes as a double meaning - but still.

Or a single meaning. Who's to say the person who wrote the module even
had any idea it could be read otherwise?

> > * shag

Something to do with carpet?

> > * db_nazi

See below.

> * SexMachine (https://pypi.python.org/pypi/SexMachine/0.1.1 - an 
> attempt to detect the gender of names, which… well, ask the nearest boy 
> named Sue - or girl named Leslie)
> * sexytime (https://pypi.python.org/pypi/sexytime/0.1.0)
> * pep8nazi (https://pypi.python.org/pypi/pep8nazi/0.1 - do we shove 
> non-PEP8-compliant authors into "showers" now?)

While this flippant usage of "Nazi" (based on, as I understand it,
Seinfeld's "soup nazi") may be offensive, it has nothing to do with
sexism. If the scope of this discussion is to be offensive module names
generally, then the subject line should have mentioned that.

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#56935

From	Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info>
Date	2013-10-17 05:48 +0000
Message-ID	<525f7a1a$0$30000$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
In reply to	#56931

On Thu, 17 Oct 2013 00:22:47 -0400, random832 wrote:

> While this flippant usage of "Nazi" (based on, as I understand it,
> Seinfeld's "soup nazi") may be offensive, it has nothing to do with
> sexism. If the scope of this discussion is to be offensive module names
> generally, then the subject line should have mentioned that.

Almost one entire branch of my family (maternal grandfather's side) were 
murdered in the Nazi death camps during the Holocaust, but what I find 
offensive is the idea that all figurative or non-historical mention of 
the Nazis ought to be verboten. (I know that's not what *you* wrote, but 
others, the more earnest left-wing politically-correct types in 
particular, have said such things.) I'm particularly disturbed by the 
idea that I personally ought to be offended by terms such as "soup nazi" 
or "grammar nazi", and if I'm not, there's something wrong with me.

Let me tell you a true story: a Jewish friend of mine got a tattoo[1]. 
When her Holocaust-survivor grandfather found out, he rolled up the 
sleeve of his shirt, pointed to the ID tattooed on his forearm, and said 
"I got a tattoo too, and I got it for free."

Now that's class.

There is nothing wrong with "pep8nazi", and to paraphrase Stephen Fry, if 
you're offended, so what? There is no guarantee that you will go through 
life never seeing anything that offends you.

[1] Well, technically she got more than one. But she wasn't going to 
admit to the others to her grandfather.

-- 
Steven

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#56936 — Offense versus harrassment (was: Sexism in the Ruby community: how does the Python community manage it?)

From	Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au>
Date	2013-10-17 17:44 +1100
Subject	Offense versus harrassment (was: Sexism in the Ruby community: how does the Python community manage it?)
Message-ID	<mailman.1145.1381992255.18130.python-list@python.org>
In reply to	#56935

Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> writes:

> On Thu, 17 Oct 2013 00:22:47 -0400, random832 wrote:
>
> > While this flippant usage of "Nazi" (based on, as I understand it,
> > Seinfeld's "soup nazi") may be offensive, it has nothing to do with
> > sexism. If the scope of this discussion is to be offensive module
> > names generally, then the subject line should have mentioned that.

My position: The package name “upskirt” is damaging to a 3rd-millennium
community that wants to welcome diversity; the package name “pep8nazi”
is not. The difference comes from differences in the present-day
cultural context.

Nazis, while they were an awful oppressive influence in society in the
first half of the 20th century, are not an influence now in the 3rd
millennium. Making a self-reference to “nazi” does not seriously shelter
anyone's bad behaviour, since so much time has passed since Nazis
significantly harrassed anyone.

Upskirt photos *are* an antisocial phenomenon now in the 3rd millennium,
contributing significantly to a culture that demeans and harrasses
women. To make a self-reference to “upskirt” trivialises the damage
caused to present-day people by this phenomenon, encouraging dismissive
jokes and reinforcing tendencies to bad behaviour by giving tacit
shelter to bad actors.

> There is nothing wrong with "pep8nazi", and to paraphrase Stephen Fry,
> if you're offended, so what? There is no guarantee that you will go
> through life never seeing anything that offends you.

That's a fine quote. It is limited in application, though, to those who
are *merely* taking offense. It says nothing in support of saying things
which dismissively joke about harrassment of present-day people.

The name “pep8nazi” does not, in my opinion, contribute to an existing
culture of harrassment in the context of the 3rd millennium. I may be
wrong, but I doubt anyone today is going to feel unwelcome in the Python
community because of that package name: there is no underprivileged
segment of society seriously oppressed by Nazis today, to my knowledge.

The name “upskirt” does contribute to an existing culture of harrassment
in the context of the 3rd millennium — specifically, the harrassment of
women by creeps taking unsolicited photographs up their skirts. For the
Python community to display such a package name fosters an environment
unwelcoming to an already-underprivileged segment of society.

On that basis, I judge the package name “pep8nazi” to be merely a
slightly off-colour joke, and the package name “upskirt” to be
unacceptable in a culture that values a welcoming environment.

-- 
 \        “I took a course in speed waiting. Now I can wait an hour in |
  `\                                 only ten minutes.” —Steven Wright |
_o__)                                                                  |
Ben Finney

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#56953 — Re: Offense versus harrassment (was: Sexism in the Ruby community: how does the Python community manage it?)

From	Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info>
Date	2013-10-17 11:24 +0000
Subject	Re: Offense versus harrassment (was: Sexism in the Ruby community: how does the Python community manage it?)
Message-ID	<525fc8e1$0$29984$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
In reply to	#56936

On Thu, 17 Oct 2013 17:44:01 +1100, Ben Finney wrote:

[...]
> Nazis, while they were an awful oppressive influence in society in the
> first half of the 20th century, are not an influence now in the 3rd
> millennium.

Tell that to Golden Dawn. And the Russian Parliament.

Just because few people in polite society admit to Nazi-esque leanings 
doesn't mean the meme has disappeared. Alas, it appears to be well on the 
rise again.

> Making a self-reference to “nazi” does not seriously shelter
> anyone's bad behaviour, since so much time has passed since Nazis
> significantly harrassed anyone.

What, a week?

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/cair-calif-muslims-condemn-neo-
nazi-harassment-of-jewish-worshipers-63779577.html

> Upskirt photos *are* an antisocial phenomenon now in the 3rd millennium,
> contributing significantly to a culture that demeans and harrasses
> women.

Well, that's an opinion, and one I'm not going to debate, since who the 
hell wants to defend something as squick-making as upskirt photos?

But then, we really ought to be wary of making decisions based solely, or 
primarily, on the squick-factor. That's the primary basis for harassment 
and discrimination against male homosexuals. Visceral reactions are not 
to be trusted, *especially* when it comes to anything related to sex and 
sexuality.

-- 
Steven

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#56937

From	Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net>
Date	2013-10-17 08:50 +0200
Message-ID	<jv1v59t88hlgm3vrl05m9ij8vvbvcsoh7r@4ax.com>
In reply to	#56935

On 17 Oct 2013 05:48:10 GMT, Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> wrote:

>On Thu, 17 Oct 2013 00:22:47 -0400, random832 wrote:
>
>> While this flippant usage of "Nazi" (based on, as I understand it,
>> Seinfeld's "soup nazi") may be offensive, it has nothing to do with
>> sexism. If the scope of this discussion is to be offensive module names
>> generally, then the subject line should have mentioned that.
>
>Almost one entire branch of my family (maternal grandfather's side) were 
>murdered in the Nazi death camps during the Holocaust, but what I find 
>offensive is the idea that all figurative or non-historical mention of 
>the Nazis ought to be verboten. (I know that's not what *you* wrote, but 
>others, the more earnest left-wing politically-correct types in 
>particular, have said such things.) I'm particularly disturbed by the 
>idea that I personally ought to be offended by terms such as "soup nazi" 
>or "grammar nazi", and if I'm not, there's something wrong with me.

I thought left-wing types were particularly prone to using such terms, and
tend to freely call anyone even slightly to the right of them "fascist". But
since both Nazis and fqascists were authoritarian types, perhaps we can create
a portmanteau word to cover it -- how about "grammatarian" for "authoritarian
grammarian". 

No, don't tell me.

The libertarians will object. 



-- 
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web:  http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

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#57014

From	Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info>
Date	2013-10-18 02:02 +0000
Message-ID	<526096c3$0$29981$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
In reply to	#56937

On Thu, 17 Oct 2013 08:50:26 +0200, Steve Hayes wrote:

> On 17 Oct 2013 05:48:10 GMT, Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info>
> wrote:
> 
>>On Thu, 17 Oct 2013 00:22:47 -0400, random832 wrote:
>>
>>> While this flippant usage of "Nazi" (based on, as I understand it,
>>> Seinfeld's "soup nazi") may be offensive, it has nothing to do with
>>> sexism. If the scope of this discussion is to be offensive module
>>> names generally, then the subject line should have mentioned that.
>>
>>Almost one entire branch of my family (maternal grandfather's side) were
>>murdered in the Nazi death camps during the Holocaust, but what I find
>>offensive is the idea that all figurative or non-historical mention of
>>the Nazis ought to be verboten. (I know that's not what *you* wrote, but
>>others, the more earnest left-wing politically-correct types in
>>particular, have said such things.) I'm particularly disturbed by the
>>idea that I personally ought to be offended by terms such as "soup nazi"
>>or "grammar nazi", and if I'm not, there's something wrong with me.
> 
> I thought left-wing types were particularly prone to using such terms,
> and tend to freely call anyone even slightly to the right of them
> "fascist". 

No more so than right-wingers call anyone even slightly left "socialist" 
or "communist".

It it interesting to see how *rarely* the people accused of being 
"socialists" by right-wingers actually believe in socialist memes, while 
how *commonly* people accused of being "fascists" by the left actually 
believe and follow fascist memes.



-- 
Steven

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#56932

From	Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierreda@gmail.com>
Date	2013-10-16 21:32 -0700
Message-ID	<mailman.1143.1381984400.18130.python-list@python.org>
In reply to	#56930

On Wed, Oct 16, 2013 at 8:13 PM, Owen Jacobson
<owen.jacobson@grimoire.ca> wrote:
-snip-
> 1. What social biases and problems *do* we unwittingly encourage by way of
> community-tolerated behaviour? Where, if not through the conventions for
> naming, do we encourage sexism, racism, and other mindlessly exclusionary
> behaviour?

If some random dolt names their project "nazi_kill_gays.py" or some
other clearly wrong thing, and I don't notice it, I'm not "tolerating"
it. That standard is clearly absurd. Nor am I encouraging it. The word
"encourage" is not a synonym for "do not punish".

As you can see, there is no "convention" encouraging sexist, racist,
or otherwise exclusionary naming schemes.

> 2. What kind of social pressure can we bring to bear to _keep_ Python's
> package naming conventions as socially neutral as they are, if and when some
> high-profile dirtbag decides this language is the best language? How can we
> apply the same pressures to other parts of the Python community?

The social pressure is that you get called a childish and immature
hooligan, publicly, by the chair of the PSF. Along with an army of
not-so-famous people yelling at you. It's apparently quite persuasive.

http://holdenweb.blogspot.com/2011/07/childish-behavior.html

Sincerely,

-- Devin Jeanpierre

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#56933

From	Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au>
Date	2013-10-17 15:36 +1100
Message-ID	<mailman.1144.1381984626.18130.python-list@python.org>
In reply to	#56930

Owen Jacobson <owen.jacobson@grimoire.ca> writes:

> 1. What social biases and problems *do* we unwittingly encourage by
> way of community-tolerated behaviour?

This is a well-worded good question, and I'd like to draw a connection
with another one you ask:

> 3. How can we reach out to the Ruby community and help *them* get past
> the current crop of gender issues, and help them as a group to do
> better next time?

Important to a solution is to realise that, in order to improve the
community's arsehole problem, certain people will need to be excluded:
the recidivist arseholes.

Encouraging diversity is *not* the same thing as tolerating everyone.

Some people will improve their behaviour and cease damaging the
community, and are deserving of regaining some measure of trust to the
extent that they demonstrate that.

But some will not. These latter need to be identified early and excluded
from the community, before their damage exceeds the value of those they
make feel unwelcome.

This necessity is uncomfortable. There is a dream is that, if we could
only find the right formula, everyone would find their place comfortably
in this happy community and no-one would have to confront anyone else
because everyone wants to behave well.

That dream is unrealistic. Some people will – for reasons of naivety,
ignorance, privilege, denial, bigotry, self-justification, delusion,
arrogance, whatever – continue behaving in ways that drive members, and
potential members, away from the community far more than the value the
misbehaving person brings to the community.

So it is essential to accept that to maintain a community welcoming of
diversity requires active effort on the part of its members, and some of
that effort must be to confront misbehaving people and tell them that if
they won't stop their misbehaviour, they're unwelcome.

This is often resisted, even by those who don't want the bad behaviour,
since it can sound like a contradiction or hipocrisy. It isn't, of
course.

What it is is something that to some ears sounds even worse, but is
essential to maintaining a healthy community: Discrimination, based on
how people behave. It's making a value judgement that to exclude a few
unrepentant arseholes is worth the improvement in the community's
welcome for non-arseholes.

And without that active discrimination, people acting like arseholes
will go unchallenged often enough that they can ruin the community for
everyone else.

> I think it's hugely important and hugely beneficial that we welcome as
> many folks into the Python community as possible, and do our best to
> foster an environment where people can succeed regardless of who or
> what they are, and recent evidence suggests that that requires ongoing
> conversation and engagement, not just passive acceptance.

Thanks for starting this conversation here.

-- 
 \      “Be careless in your dress if you must, but keep a tidy soul.” |
  `\                              —Mark Twain, _Following the Equator_ |
_o__)                                                                  |
Ben Finney

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#56949

From	Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info>
Date	2013-10-17 09:20 +0000
Message-ID	<525fabe6$0$30000$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
In reply to	#56930

On Wed, 16 Oct 2013 23:13:33 -0400, Owen Jacobson wrote:

> Last week, Elad Maidar wrote a fairly short but readable opinion
> piece[0] illustrating some long-standing social problems in the Ruby
> community, ending with a very specific call to action around naming
> conventions for Ruby projects and gems. To save you the trouble of
> scrolling to the bottom of this post and clicking, here's the relevant
> bit:
> 
>> What is missing you ask? I think that there is no consideration in
>> women when it comes to gem naming convention, here are a few gems that
>> i found in a 5 mintues search on Rubygems.org to demonstrate why women
>> and other groups probably feel uncomfortable when trying to get into
>> the Rails community:

I'm not part of the Rails community, but I wonder, really, is this 
treating the cause of the problem or just a symptom?

How many Ruby developers find themselves in the situation of actually 
needing to use a package called "bitch" or "retarded"? If you didn't go 
out looking for them, would you even know they exist?

I think that packages with this sort of name do the community a good 
service: they are a very strong signal as to the moral quality, emotional 
immaturity, and intelligence of the package author. The author is perhaps 
to be excused if he *actually is* an obnoxious fourteen-year old boy 
rather than just acting like one. Otherwise, with the very occasional 
exception, packages like the ones named are nearly as good a signal as a 
"Poor Impulse Control" tattoo across the forehead of the author.

[...]
> The good news: the specific examples Elad called out are STRIKINGLY
> absent from pypi. By and large the published python packages are
> inobjectionable. Well done, "us", in as much as there is an "us" to
> congratulate.

"Unobjectionable".

> There are a few examples of the same sort of bad decision-making that
> are, I think, worth discussing:
> 
> * SexMachine (https://pypi.python.org/pypi/SexMachine/0.1.1 - an attempt
> to detect the gender of names, which… well, ask the nearest boy named
> Sue - or girl named Leslie)

I'm curious as to what you consider a bad decision -- the name itself, or 
the very concept of trying to guess gender from names?

[...]
> So, two questions:
> 
> 1. What social biases and problems *do* we unwittingly encourage by way
> of community-tolerated behaviour?

Chances are there is plenty we do that future generations will be 
horrified by, like *wearing yellow*.

http://paulgraham.com/say.html

Some of these things will include our most cherished beliefs.

> Where, if not through the conventions
> for naming, do we encourage sexism, racism, and other mindlessly
> exclusionary behaviour?

Oh, the assumptions there...

1) "Mindlessly" exclusionary?

2) Who says *we* encourage sexism and racism?

> 2. What kind of social pressure can we bring to bear to _keep_ Python's
> package naming conventions as socially neutral as they are, if and when
> some high-profile dirtbag decides this language is the best language?
> How can we apply the same pressures to other parts of the Python
> community?

I really don't like the idea that some package names are thoughtcrime. I 
especially don't like the idea that we need to *preemptively* police the 
community for "bad names" *just in case* some "high-profile dirtbag" 
decides to call her software "boobies" or something.

> 3. How can we reach out to the Ruby community and help *them* get past
> the current crop of gender issues, and help them as a group to do better
> next time?

Heh, I'm inclined to say "better them than us" and be grateful that the 
snotty-nosed emotionally-stunted yahoos are over there rather than over 
here, but that would be selfish, wouldn't it?

Oh well. There's only so much I can do at once. I've got bigger troubles 
than trying to solve Ruby's problems with yahoos, and frankly, if I were 
a Ruby community member, I wouldn't exactly be pleased to have a bunch of 
strangers from another community come over to tell me all the things I'm 
doing wrong.

Speaking of which, while you're welcome here of course, I see you aren't 
exactly a regular poster. How well do you know this community?

> I'm very much on the side of education, tolerance, and social
> consequences, not administrative fiat or organized retaliation. I think
> Elad's call for the Rubygems folks to unilaterally drop libraries is
> misguided, but well-intentioned, and I don't think the same sort of call
> towards Pypi to drop "unacceptable" library names is a good idea either.
> However, I think it's hugely important and hugely beneficial that we
> welcome as many folks into the Python community as possible, and do our
> best to foster an environment where people can succeed regardless of who
> or what they are, and recent evidence suggests that that requires
> ongoing conversation and engagement, not just passive acceptance.
> 
> So, how should we be more awesome?

We should give out free cookies! Everybody loves cookies, right?

What *actual* problem are we trying to solve, right here? Is it ...

- The Python community is a hot-bed for so-called "Men's Rights", a 
reactionary group of old-fashioned chauvinists?

- Or perhaps childish, obnoxious "lads" who are trying to exclude women 
and minorities?

- The Python community is insufficiently aware of the difficulties that 
minorities and women are under?

- Regardless of how friendly and welcoming we are, the wider societies we 
come from are unacceptably sexist?

- The evolution of Homo sapiens has lead to us behaving more like 
violent, hierarchical, male-dominated chimpanzees rather than 
promiscuous, egalitarian, female-dominated bonobos?

- All of the above?

- Something else?

I'm not sure which problem(s) you think needs to be solved.

-- 
Steven

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#56955

From	Zero Piraeus <z@etiol.net>
Date	2013-10-17 08:48 -0300
Message-ID	<mailman.1157.1382012082.18130.python-list@python.org>
In reply to	#56949

:

On Thu, Oct 17, 2013 at 09:20:39AM +0000, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> Oh well. There's only so much I can do at once. I've got bigger
> troubles than trying to solve Ruby's problems with yahoos, and
> frankly, if I were a Ruby community member, I wouldn't exactly be
> pleased to have a bunch of strangers from another community come over
> to tell me all the things I'm doing wrong.

What could possibly go wrong?

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/oct/18/uselections2004.usa2

 -[]z.

-- 
Zero Piraeus: in ictu oculi
http://etiol.net/pubkey.asc

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#56970

From	rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com>
Date	2013-10-17 09:50 -0700
Message-ID	<8dad4ce9-042c-40cd-b843-c5b4c026030a@googlegroups.com>
In reply to	#56955

On Thursday, October 17, 2013 5:18:25 PM UTC+5:30, Zero Piraeus wrote:
> :
> 
> 
> 
> On Thu, Oct 17, 2013 at 09:20:39AM +0000, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> 
> > Oh well. There's only so much I can do at once. I've got bigger
> > troubles than trying to solve Ruby's problems with yahoos, and
> > frankly, if I were a Ruby community member, I wouldn't exactly be
> > pleased to have a bunch of strangers from another community come over
> > to tell me all the things I'm doing wrong.
> 
> What could possibly go wrong?
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/oct/18/uselections2004.usa2

Fun read that -- thanks.
And it leads to the following analogizing:
Python advising Ruby (forgive the anthropomorphism) is less like Brits advising the Americans than the Iraquis.
Yeah there is no bloodshed (God forbid!) between python and ruby but there is a sense of competition.

A more orthogonal group advising may.. well be more advisable :-)
eg debian packager group or w3 consortium or X-windows consortium or some such

As for the subject matter itself Ive uhh.. nothing to say:
Considering that 'retarded' implies sexism my cultural antenna is currently broken...
I'll squeak a word or two when its repaired...

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#56950

From	marduk@python.net
Date	2013-10-17 06:30 -0400
Message-ID	<mailman.1152.1382005830.18130.python-list@python.org>
In reply to	#56930

On Wed, Oct 16, 2013, at 11:13 PM, Owen Jacobson wrote:

[...]
> 2. What kind of social pressure can we bring to bear to _keep_ Python's 
> package naming conventions as socially neutral as they are, if and when 
> some high-profile dirtbag decides this language is the best language? 
> How can we apply the same pressures to other parts of the Python 
> community?

I'm sorry, but as a member of the hygenically-challenged community I am
greatly offended by the term "dirtbag".

-a

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#56952

From	Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com>
Date	2013-10-17 22:05 +1100
Message-ID	<mailman.1153.1382007952.18130.python-list@python.org>
In reply to	#56930

On Thu, Oct 17, 2013 at 9:30 PM,  <marduk@python.net> wrote:
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 16, 2013, at 11:13 PM, Owen Jacobson wrote:
>
> [...]
>> 2. What kind of social pressure can we bring to bear to _keep_ Python's
>> package naming conventions as socially neutral as they are, if and when
>> some high-profile dirtbag decides this language is the best language?
>> How can we apply the same pressures to other parts of the Python
>> community?
>
> I'm sorry, but as a member of the hygenically-challenged community I am
> greatly offended by the term "dirtbag".

He didn't mean you, he specifically said "high-profile".

Apropos of this whole thing of giving and taking offense, I'm
currently crewing a production [2] of Princess Ida [2], in which - in
her university - a set of chessmen was enough of a crime to warrant
expulsion, and a sketch of a perambulator (double perambulator,
shameless girl!) was met with a three-term suspension. Yet in the rest
of the world, neither is in the least offensive. Of course, this is an
exaggeration for the benefit of opera, but it does highlight the
fickle nature of offensiveness...

ChrisA

[1] http://gilbertandsullivan.org.au/ - come see us if you're in Melbourne, AU!
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Princess_Ida

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#56960

From	Roy Smith <roy@panix.com>
Date	2013-10-17 09:52 -0400
Message-ID	<roy-04EE5A.09525817102013@news.panix.com>
In reply to	#56930

In article <2013101623133337485-owenjacobson@grimoireca>,
 Owen Jacobson <owen.jacobson@grimoire.ca> wrote:

> * SexMachine (https://pypi.python.org/pypi/SexMachine/0.1.1 - an 
> attempt to detect the gender of names, which… well, ask the nearest boy 
> named Sue - or girl named Leslie)

I'm not sure what you're objecting to here.  Is it the name, or the 
functionality?

As for the name, I guess different people have different reactions, but 
I (as a male) find this only mildly offensive.  I can see why some 
people might have a stronger reaction to it.  Perhaps not the best name 
one might have come up with, but certainly not anywhere near the list 
you cited.  I would not have picked the name myself, but I also would 
not want to see us go so far as to forbid something with that name from 
being listed on pypi.

As for the function, guessing gender from names is important in the 
advertising world.  Everybody knows that some names are ambiguous.  And 
that sometimes names that you would think of as unambiguously associated 
with a particular gender are used by the other.  And a zillion other 
ways the guess can be wrong.

Still, it's worth real money in on-line commerce and advertising to know 
(even with a certain degree of uncertainty) somebody's gender.  So it's 
not surprising people are writing tools to guess that from names.  Nor 
do I think it's inappropriate.

Full disclosure: I work for a company which makes money selling on-line 
advertising.  If we can provide accurate gender information to our 
advertisers, we can charge them more per impression.

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#56962

From	Danyelle Davis <ladynikon@gmail.com>
Date	2013-10-17 10:38 -0400
Message-ID	<mailman.1160.1382020706.18130.python-list@python.org>
In reply to	#56960

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

I am a woman and all I can say to these things is.. Bringing light to these
things do nothing but give attention to the attention seeking.. yea the
names are dumb.  But does it ever stop me. No.  Mainly because ignore the
college/boyish mentality that is associated with names like that.


On Thu, Oct 17, 2013 at 9:52 AM, Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> wrote:

> In article <2013101623133337485-owenjacobson@grimoireca>,
>  Owen Jacobson <owen.jacobson@grimoire.ca> wrote:
>
> > * SexMachine (https://pypi.python.org/pypi/SexMachine/0.1.1 - an
> > attempt to detect the gender of names, which… well, ask the nearest boy
> > named Sue - or girl named Leslie)
>
> I'm not sure what you're objecting to here.  Is it the name, or the
> functionality?
>
> As for the name, I guess different people have different reactions, but
> I (as a male) find this only mildly offensive.  I can see why some
> people might have a stronger reaction to it.  Perhaps not the best name
> one might have come up with, but certainly not anywhere near the list
> you cited.  I would not have picked the name myself, but I also would
> not want to see us go so far as to forbid something with that name from
> being listed on pypi.
>
> As for the function, guessing gender from names is important in the
> advertising world.  Everybody knows that some names are ambiguous.  And
> that sometimes names that you would think of as unambiguously associated
> with a particular gender are used by the other.  And a zillion other
> ways the guess can be wrong.
>
> Still, it's worth real money in on-line commerce and advertising to know
> (even with a certain degree of uncertainty) somebody's gender.  So it's
> not surprising people are writing tools to guess that from names.  Nor
> do I think it's inappropriate.
>
> Full disclosure: I work for a company which makes money selling on-line
> advertising.  If we can provide accurate gender information to our
> advertisers, we can charge them more per impression.
>
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>
>

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#56967

From	Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com>
Date	2013-10-18 02:07 +1100
Message-ID	<mailman.1165.1382022472.18130.python-list@python.org>
In reply to	#56960

On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 1:38 AM, Danyelle Davis <ladynikon@gmail.com> wrote:
> I am a woman and all I can say to these things is.. Bringing light to these
> things do nothing but give attention to the attention seeking.. yea the
> names are dumb.  But does it ever stop me. No.  Mainly because ignore the
> college/boyish mentality that is associated with names like that.

Thing is, it's all very well to avoid using one particular module
because you don't like its name... but what happens when there are a
goodly number of such ill-named modules? Let's suppose you don't like
the name "readline" because it offends your religion. (I'm
deliberately picking something that I can't imagine actually being
offensive; my sincere and humble apologies if there is anyone who
actually IS offended by that name.) You might be able to use libedit
instead, but what if that name also is offensive to you? (Again,
apologies if it really is.) How long are you going to poke around for
alternative modules before you throw your hands up and say "This
language sucks, all its modules have stupid names"?

Or do you mean that you'd use something despite its offensive name,
because the name doesn't bother you? If so, awesome for you, but
unfortunately not everyone is so generous :)

Personally, I would avoid using profane names, if only because I don't
like trying to explain to my boss what it is I'm using. "You use
Python? What's that?" "It's a language, named after a comedy group."
"Great!" - vs - "You use Brainf--? What's that?" "Uhh... it's a
language... that I don't like to say the name of. Uhh...." - awkward.
Same with module names. When I watched a Ruby app installing itself, I
googled a few of the gem names out of morbid curiosity, and to be
quite frank, I dislike a lot of them. Module names should be
descriptive, not fancy. And I really don't think they need profanity,
which some people apparently disagree with.

ChrisA

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#56972

From	Roy Smith <roy@panix.com>
Date	2013-10-17 10:16 -0700
Message-ID	<f457b1a3-3b80-43df-acbd-4617a5c591a0@googlegroups.com>
In reply to	#56967

On Thursday, October 17, 2013 11:07:48 AM UTC-4, Chris Angelico wrote:
> Module names should be  descriptive, not fancy.

Interesting comment, on a mailing list for a language named after a snake, especially by a guy who claims to prefer an language named after a fish :-)

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#56982

From	Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com>
Date	2013-10-17 13:43 -0600
Message-ID	<mailman.1172.1382039079.18130.python-list@python.org>
In reply to	#56972

On Thu, Oct 17, 2013 at 11:16 AM, Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> wrote:
> On Thursday, October 17, 2013 11:07:48 AM UTC-4, Chris Angelico wrote:
>> Module names should be  descriptive, not fancy.
>
> Interesting comment, on a mailing list for a language named after a snake, especially by a guy who claims to prefer an language named after a fish :-)

Well, he did say "module names", not "language names".  Few language
names are descriptive, and those that are tend to be acronyms: BASIC,
LISP, COBOL, PHP, APL.  Note that while that last one is descriptive,
it does very little to distinguish itself from any other programming
language.

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#56983

From	Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk>
Date	2013-10-17 20:53 +0100
Message-ID	<mailman.1173.1382039602.18130.python-list@python.org>
In reply to	#56972

On 17/10/2013 20:43, Ian Kelly wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 17, 2013 at 11:16 AM, Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> wrote:
>> On Thursday, October 17, 2013 11:07:48 AM UTC-4, Chris Angelico wrote:
>>> Module names should be  descriptive, not fancy.
>>
>> Interesting comment, on a mailing list for a language named after a snake, especially by a guy who claims to prefer an language named after a fish :-)
>
> Well, he did say "module names", not "language names".  Few language
> names are descriptive, and those that are tend to be acronyms: BASIC,
> LISP, COBOL, PHP, APL.  Note that while that last one is descriptive,
> it does very little to distinguish itself from any other programming
> language.
>

It's just so unfair, poor old CORAL gets left out of this type of list 
every time :(

-- 
Roses are red,
Violets are blue,
Most poems rhyme,
But this one doesn't.

Mark Lawrence

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csiph-web

Sexism in the Ruby community: how does the Python community manage it?

Contents

#56930 — Sexism in the Ruby community: how does the Python community manage it?

#56931

#56935

#56936 — Offense versus harrassment (was: Sexism in the Ruby community: how does the Python community manage it?)

#56953 — Re: Offense versus harrassment (was: Sexism in the Ruby community: how does the Python community manage it?)

#56937

#57014

#56932

#56933

#56949

#56955

#56970

#56950

#56952

#56960

#56962

#56967

#56972

#56982

#56983