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Can post a code but afraid of plagiarism

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  Can post a code but afraid of plagiarism indar kumar <indarkumar59@gmail.com> - 2014-01-18 14:21 -0800
    Re: Can post a code but afraid of plagiarism Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-01-18 17:27 -0500
    Re: Can post a code but afraid of plagiarism indar kumar <indarkumar59@gmail.com> - 2014-01-18 14:32 -0800
      Re: Can post a code but afraid of plagiarism Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-01-18 17:35 -0500
      Re: Can post a code but afraid of plagiarism Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-01-19 09:42 +1100
      Re: Can post a code but afraid of plagiarism Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-01-19 09:59 +1100
      Re: Can post a code but afraid of plagiarism Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-01-19 06:31 +0000
        Re: Can post a code but afraid of plagiarism Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierreda@gmail.com> - 2014-01-18 22:45 -0800
        Re: Can post a code but afraid of plagiarism Dan Stromberg <drsalists@gmail.com> - 2014-01-19 21:21 -0800
        Re: Can post a code but afraid of plagiarism Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-01-20 17:21 +1100
          Re: Can post a code but afraid of plagiarism Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-01-20 09:08 -0500
            Re: Can post a code but afraid of plagiarism Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-01-20 08:11 -0800
            Re: Can post a code but afraid of plagiarism Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-01-20 16:56 -0500
            Re: Can post a code but afraid of plagiarism Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-01-21 00:47 +0000
              Re: Can post a code but afraid of plagiarism Oscar Benjamin <oscar.j.benjamin@gmail.com> - 2014-01-21 10:32 +0000
                Re: Can post a code but afraid of plagiarism Dan Sommers <dan@tombstonezero.net> - 2014-01-21 13:49 +0000
        Re: Can post a code but afraid of plagiarism Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-01-20 18:39 +1100
          Re: Can post a code but afraid of plagiarism indar kumar <indarkumar59@gmail.com> - 2014-01-19 23:55 -0800
            Re: Can post a code but afraid of plagiarism Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-01-20 19:17 +1100
              Re: Can post a code but afraid of plagiarism Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-01-22 00:51 +0000
                Re: Can post a code but afraid of plagiarism Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-01-21 19:01 -0800
                  Re: Can post a code but afraid of plagiarism Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-01-21 22:46 -0500
            Re: Can post a code but afraid of plagiarism Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-01-20 19:48 +1100
            Re: Can post a code but afraid of plagiarism bryan rasmussen <rasmussen.bryan@gmail.com> - 2014-01-20 10:19 +0100
            Re: Can post a code but afraid of plagiarism Alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2014-01-20 09:36 +0000
            Re: Can post a code but afraid of plagiarism Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-01-22 00:01 +0000
          Re: Can post a code but afraid of plagiarism Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-01-22 00:51 +0000
            Re: Can post a code but afraid of plagiarism Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2014-01-22 13:34 +0000
        Re: Can post a code but afraid of plagiarism Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-01-20 18:59 +1100
        Re: Can post a code but afraid of plagiarism Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-01-20 19:10 +1100
    Re: Can post a code but afraid of plagiarism Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-01-19 09:57 +1100
    Re: Can post a code but afraid of plagiarism Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2014-01-19 16:22 +0000
    Re: Can post a code but afraid of plagiarism indar kumar <indarkumar59@gmail.com> - 2014-01-22 00:36 -0800
      Re: Can post a code but afraid of plagiarism Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2014-01-22 08:53 -0500
      Re: Can post a code but afraid of plagiarism Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-01-22 08:48 -0800
      Re: Can post a code but afraid of plagiarism Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-01-23 00:01 +0000
    Re: Can post a code but afraid of plagiarism indar kumar <indarkumar59@gmail.com> - 2014-01-22 00:39 -0800
    Re: Can post a code but afraid of plagiarism indar kumar <indarkumar59@gmail.com> - 2014-01-22 08:33 -0800
      Re: Can post a code but afraid of plagiarism Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2014-01-22 22:36 -0500
    Re: Can post a code but afraid of plagiarism indar kumar <indarkumar59@gmail.com> - 2014-01-22 08:46 -0800
    Re: Can post a code but afraid of plagiarism indar kumar <indarkumar59@gmail.com> - 2014-01-22 08:50 -0800
    Re: Can post a code but afraid of plagiarism indar kumar <indarkumar59@gmail.com> - 2014-01-22 08:53 -0800
    Re: Can post a code but afraid of plagiarism indar kumar <indarkumar59@gmail.com> - 2014-01-22 09:09 -0800
      Re: Can post a code but afraid of plagiarism Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2014-01-22 14:19 -0500
    Re: Can post a code but afraid of plagiarism indar kumar <indarkumar59@gmail.com> - 2014-01-22 23:46 -0800
      Re: Can post a code but afraid of plagiarism Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2014-01-23 20:26 -0500
    Re: Can post a code but afraid of plagiarism indar kumar <indarkumar59@gmail.com> - 2014-01-22 23:57 -0800
      Re: Can post a code but afraid of plagiarism Asaf Las <roegltd@gmail.com> - 2014-01-23 01:46 -0800
    Re: Can post a code but afraid of plagiarism indar kumar <indarkumar59@gmail.com> - 2014-01-23 02:10 -0800
    Re: Can post a code but afraid of plagiarism indar kumar <indarkumar59@gmail.com> - 2014-01-23 13:15 -0800
      Re: Can post a code but afraid of plagiarism Emile van Sebille <emile@fenx.com> - 2014-01-23 13:28 -0800
    Re: Can post a code but afraid of plagiarism indar kumar <indarkumar59@gmail.com> - 2014-01-23 13:34 -0800
      Re: Can post a code but afraid of plagiarism Emile van Sebille <emile@fenx.com> - 2014-01-23 13:49 -0800
    Re: Can post a code but afraid of plagiarism indar kumar <indarkumar59@gmail.com> - 2014-01-23 13:56 -0800
      Re: Can post a code but afraid of plagiarism Piet van Oostrum <piet@vanoostrum.org> - 2014-01-24 15:13 +0100
    Re: Can post a code but afraid of plagiarism indar kumar <indarkumar59@gmail.com> - 2014-01-23 19:15 -0800
      Re: Can post a code but afraid of plagiarism Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-01-23 21:57 -0800
      Re: Can post a code but afraid of plagiarism Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-01-24 08:13 +0000
    Re: Can post a code but afraid of plagiarism indar kumar <indarkumar59@gmail.com> - 2014-01-23 23:14 -0800
      Re: Can post a code but afraid of plagiarism Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2014-01-24 09:01 -0500
      Re: Can post a code but afraid of plagiarism bob gailer <bgailer@gmail.com> - 2014-01-24 18:42 -0500
      Re: Can post a code but afraid of plagiarism Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2014-01-24 19:42 -0500

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#64262 — Can post a code but afraid of plagiarism

Hi,

I want to show a code for review but afraid of plagiarism issues. Kindly, suggest how can I post it for review here without masking it visible for public

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#64263

In article <e646d6f1-ac3c-4d55-9809-b5edee93dbbb@googlegroups.com>,
 indar kumar <indarkumar59@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> I want to show a code for review but afraid of plagiarism issues. Kindly, 
> suggest how can I post it for review here without masking it visible for 
> public

You can't.  This is a public forum.  One of the reasons people are 
willing to answer basic questions is because they knew more than one 
person will benefit from the answer.

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#64264

@Roy Smith

Can you help me privately because its an assignment and have to submit plagiarism free

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#64266

In article <bb64743c-b470-4bd0-baac-27bc9ab5b647@googlegroups.com>,
 indar kumar <indarkumar59@gmail.com> wrote:

> @Roy Smith
> 
> Can you help me privately

Sorry, no.

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#64268

On Sun, Jan 19, 2014 at 9:32 AM, indar kumar <indarkumar59@gmail.com> wrote:
> @Roy Smith
>
> Can you help me privately because its an assignment and have to submit plagiarism free

Are you sure the requirement precludes you posting your code? More
likely, the rule is that you may not copy someone else's. When it's
posted here, it'll have your name associated with it, so anyone
checking for your code on the web will see that you posted it
yourself.

But please, before you post your code, fix your posts. You're using
the buggiest client known to this list: Google Groups. Using a
different means of posting is probably the best solution, but failing
that, you could search the web for 'Google Groups Python' and find
some useful instructions. (I'd like to see that you're able to find
things based on web search results, because that's an important
skill.)

ChrisA

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#64270

indar kumar <indarkumar59@gmail.com> writes:

> Can you help me privately because its an assignment and have to submit
> plagiarism free

Then the point of the assignment is defeated by seeking help here.

Hopefully your instructors also read this forum and are now aware you
are seeking to subvert the anti-plagiarism rules.

-- 
 \          “It is well to remember that the entire universe, with one |
  `\   trifling exception, is composed of others.” —John Andrew Holmes |
_o__)                                                                  |
Ben Finney

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#64283

On Sat, 18 Jan 2014 14:32:21 -0800, indar kumar wrote:

> @Roy Smith
> 
> Can you help me privately because its an assignment and have to submit
> plagiarism free

Then don't plagiarise.


Plagiarism means YOU copy other people. You shouldn't get in trouble 
because other people copy you.

Talk to your tutor or teacher and ask what the school's policy is about 
asking for external help on projects. Some schools will allow it if you 
explain what help you received. Some prohibit it all together.

In general, we will help with questions about Python syntax and 
libraries, but we try not to write your code for you. If you make a good-
faith attempt to solve the problem, and then ask for help, we shall try 
to assist. But as I said, you should find out what your school or 
university's policy is.


-- 
Steven

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#64284

On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 10:31 PM, Steven D'Aprano
<steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> wrote:
> Plagiarism means YOU copy other people. You shouldn't get in trouble
> because other people copy you.

Normally, both the person copying and the person who gave away their
work to be copied are punished. It simplifies figuring out who to
punish, and discourages people from enabling cheaters.

If one of their fellow students copied their assignment, they actually
likely would be in trouble, and could be expelled or failed.

-- Devin

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#64336

On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 10:31 PM, Steven D'Aprano
<steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> wrote:
> On Sat, 18 Jan 2014 14:32:21 -0800, indar kumar wrote:
>
>> @Roy Smith
>>
>> Can you help me privately because its an assignment and have to submit
>> plagiarism free
>
> Then don't plagiarise.
>
>
> Plagiarism means YOU copy other people. You shouldn't get in trouble
> because other people copy you.

I did a short time of teaching while I was in school.  If three
students all turned in the same assignment, they all got docked
significantly.  There was no "who copied off of whom?", it was
"someone shared when they shouldn't have."

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#64339

On Mon, Jan 20, 2014 at 4:21 PM, Dan Stromberg <drsalists@gmail.com> wrote:
> I did a short time of teaching while I was in school.  If three
> students all turned in the same assignment, they all got docked
> significantly.  There was no "who copied off of whom?", it was
> "someone shared when they shouldn't have."

What a wonderful way to promote an attitude of "my code is MY CODE and
should never leave my sight". What a delightful way of thinking to
unleash on the world.

ChrisA

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#64360

In article <mailman.5735.1390198899.18130.python-list@python.org>,
 Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mon, Jan 20, 2014 at 4:21 PM, Dan Stromberg <drsalists@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I did a short time of teaching while I was in school.  If three
> > students all turned in the same assignment, they all got docked
> > significantly.  There was no "who copied off of whom?", it was
> > "someone shared when they shouldn't have."
> 
> What a wonderful way to promote an attitude of "my code is MY CODE and
> should never leave my sight". What a delightful way of thinking to
> unleash on the world.

That's a little harsh.  Working in groups, and sharing code, are 
important parts of how software gets developed today.  Those 
collaborative work habits should indeed be taught.  But, school is also 
about evaluation of progress.  At the end of the class, the teacher 
needs some objective way to figure out how much each student has learned 
and assign a grade.  It's hard to do that if people aren't handing in 
assignments done individually.

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#64363

On Monday, January 20, 2014 7:38:28 PM UTC+5:30, Roy Smith wrote:
>  Chris Angelico wrote:

> > On Mon, Jan 20, 2014 at 4:21 PM, Dan Stromberg wrote:
> > > I did a short time of teaching while I was in school.  If three
> > > students all turned in the same assignment, they all got docked
> > > significantly.  There was no "who copied off of whom?", it was
> > > "someone shared when they shouldn't have."
> > What a wonderful way to promote an attitude of "my code is MY CODE and
> > should never leave my sight". What a delightful way of thinking to
> > unleash on the world.

> That's a little harsh.  Working in groups, and sharing code, are 
> important parts of how software gets developed today.  Those 
> collaborative work habits should indeed be taught.  But, school is also 
> about evaluation of progress.  At the end of the class, the teacher 
> needs some objective way to figure out how much each student has learned 
> and assign a grade.  It's hard to do that if people aren't handing in 
> assignments done individually.

This position is a repeat of the position on whether print is a good
function for students to use: wearing teacher hat and professional
programmer hat give very different desiderata.

As an example of the need for multiple hats consider this scenario:

You are interviewing a programmer for a java job.  You ask the
candidate to explain quicksort.  Quick is the answer: java.util.lang.sort
[Im using java as example because the sort in python is not so
explicitly a quicksort]

You would find this answer unacceptable (hopefully)

On the other hand when that same programmer were on job, if instead
of using java.util.lang.sort he spent his time implementing one, you
would be equally peeved (hopefully!)

Most people dont get that education is like a game: Some games --
meccano, lego -- can be explicitly educative but any game can be put
to educational purpose.  Now you can stymie the purpose by saying: "I
find these rules arbitrary -- I refuse to play!" but that only
obstructs the process until some other rules/games are created.  And
will be seen to be fruitless once you get that all education is more
or less about bigger and smaller toys, ie unreality.

"Dont copy" is standard rule in edu-institutes. It should be
understood to be arbitrary and not some fundamental moral law, just as
"Dont hand-touch the ball" is a rule in football but not basketball.

Some people actually have fun making up new games -- a hybrid of
football and basketball?  More often people find it reasonable and fun 
to stay within the parameters of pre-existing rules.

As for Dan's "Punish the whole coterie rather than only the copycats"
rule: as a teacher I can say that fancy rules that are non-computable
are worse than useless.  So if this is more effective than the usual
"punish the copier" rule -- all power to you.  The only thing I would
add is this: Please close the feedback loop; ie check whether the
rules are serving their intended purpose.  Typically one finds that
beyond a point harsh rules are counterproductive. Probably related to
the fact that if your driving cycle is entirely carrot-n-stick, the
driven will become indistinguishable from mammals and repiles

At the other end of the spectrum is the interesting anecdote in "Zen
and the art of motorcycle maintenance." The author is teaching some
course and decides to abolish exams. The students who most strongly
revolt are bottom of the class -- ie those most likely to fail!!

Some more on my blog
http://blog.languager.org/2010/05/declaration-imperation-and-language.html

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#64376

On 1/20/2014 9:08 AM, Roy Smith wrote:

> That's a little harsh.  Working in groups, and sharing code, are
> important parts of how software gets developed today.  Those
> collaborative work habits should indeed be taught.

Until recently, teaching collaboration through group projects has had 
the problem of leeching. Asking group members to grade each other's 
participation and contributions does not work too well. My daughter ran 
into this problem in her first programming class where 
private-until-done 'group' work was too much her work. In her second 
class, there was discussion of each other's coding problems *in the 
class*, in front of the teacher, and she enjoyed that much more.

It is now possible to run collaboration through software that records 
interaction. My daughter took a composition class where discussion and 
review of each other's work was recorded and contributed to each 
person's grade. But this was not collaborative writing, which would be 
another level of interaction, and one which is common beyond college 
classes.

A programming class (probably best after the first) could use a real 
(meaning, used outside of classes) repository and tracker. *That* would 
better prepare people for later work, whether on a job or as an 
open-source volunteer.

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy

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#64383

On Mon, 20 Jan 2014 09:08:28 -0500, Roy Smith wrote:

> In article <mailman.5735.1390198899.18130.python-list@python.org>,
>  Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> On Mon, Jan 20, 2014 at 4:21 PM, Dan Stromberg <drsalists@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > I did a short time of teaching while I was in school.  If three
>> > students all turned in the same assignment, they all got docked
>> > significantly.  There was no "who copied off of whom?", it was
>> > "someone shared when they shouldn't have."
>> 
>> What a wonderful way to promote an attitude of "my code is MY CODE and
>> should never leave my sight". What a delightful way of thinking to
>> unleash on the world.
> 
> That's a little harsh.  Working in groups, and sharing code, are
> important parts of how software gets developed today.  Those
> collaborative work habits should indeed be taught.  But, school is also
> about evaluation of progress.  At the end of the class, the teacher
> needs some objective way to figure out how much each student has learned
> and assign a grade.  It's hard to do that if people aren't handing in
> assignments done individually.

An objective way to figure out individual progress is easy. It's called 
an "exam" or "test". Admittedly, it's normally only practical for 
examinations to last no more than a day for senior students, and an hour 
or maximum two hours for junior students, and some subjects are more 
easily tested this way than others. But you can still examine a lot in a 
couple of hours. If you're interested in accurately measuring the 
learning of individual students, there is at least one pretty damning 
problem with assignments: just because student X puts his name on the 
paper doesn't mean student X wrote the paper. Assignments are effectively 
based on the honour system, and we know how well that works. For those 
with the money to spend, you need not do a lick of work to get an A.

Perhaps that's why Harvard has just given up even trying to distinguish 
the students who learn things from those who don't? Forget George Bush's 
"Gentleman's C", Harvard now practically gives A's away to anyone who 
shows up (and pays the fees).

http://qz.com/153694/the-most-commonly-awarded-grade-at-harvard-is-an-a/

Presumably they're protecting their business model. Students are 
customers, and if your customers are paying a small fortune to attend, 
they need to get something in return. Knowledge is good, but you can't 
put knowledge on a CV or frame it and put it on a wall.

It would be interesting to think about the incentives which have lead to 
an over-reliance on take-home assignments rather than exams, as well as 
the pros and cons of one versus the other. Don't get me wrong, there are 
advantages to assignments as well, but I think that the total prohibition 
on collaboration is misguided. The question in my mind is how to 
encourage students to learn from each other rather than to merely 
mechanically copy from each other?

Relevant:

http://qz.com/157579/confession-of-an-ivy-league-teaching-assistant-heres-why-i-inflated-grades/


-- 
Steven

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#64395

On Tue, Jan 21, 2014 at 12:47:41AM +0000, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> On Mon, 20 Jan 2014 09:08:28 -0500, Roy Smith wrote:
> 
> > In article <mailman.5735.1390198899.18130.python-list@python.org>,
> >  Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> wrote:
> > 
> >> On Mon, Jan 20, 2014 at 4:21 PM, Dan Stromberg <drsalists@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >> > I did a short time of teaching while I was in school.  If three
> >> > students all turned in the same assignment, they all got docked
> >> > significantly.  There was no "who copied off of whom?", it was
> >> > "someone shared when they shouldn't have."
> >> 
> >> What a wonderful way to promote an attitude of "my code is MY CODE and
> >> should never leave my sight". What a delightful way of thinking to
> >> unleash on the world.
> > 
> > That's a little harsh.  Working in groups, and sharing code, are
> > important parts of how software gets developed today.  Those
> > collaborative work habits should indeed be taught.  But, school is also
> > about evaluation of progress.  At the end of the class, the teacher
> > needs some objective way to figure out how much each student has learned
> > and assign a grade.  It's hard to do that if people aren't handing in
> > assignments done individually.

I agree that it is unfortunate but there's a bit of a balancing act with this.
The problem is that there are two sometimes conflicting roles in education:
teaching and assessing. When you set assignments the students will usually
learn more if they work in groups. However at some point you need to try and
assess how much they've individually learned. I find in practice that it's
easy to tell when a student has copied someone else without really
understanding what they're doing though. Of course if they just pay someone
else to do it for them then there's not much you can do...

> 
> An objective way to figure out individual progress is easy. It's called 
> an "exam" or "test". Admittedly, it's normally only practical for 
> examinations to last no more than a day for senior students, and an hour 
> or maximum two hours for junior students, and some subjects are more 
> easily tested this way than others. But you can still examine a lot in a 
> couple of hours. If you're interested in accurately measuring the 
> learning of individual students, there is at least one pretty damning 
> problem with assignments: just because student X puts his name on the 
> paper doesn't mean student X wrote the paper. Assignments are effectively 
> based on the honour system, and we know how well that works. For those 
> with the money to spend, you need not do a lick of work to get an A.

The real problem with exams is that exam conditions are so unrepresentative of
real work. How often do you use the internet, or documentation, or text books
etc. in your own work? How often would you have to do something without having
anyone at least to discuss the idea with?

But yes it's absolutely necessary to have some exams or else the whole system
is open to abuse.

> 
> Perhaps that's why Harvard has just given up even trying to distinguish 
> the students who learn things from those who don't? Forget George Bush's 
> "Gentleman's C", Harvard now practically gives A's away to anyone who 
> shows up (and pays the fees).

I think that's a little harsh. To say that the majority of students get an
A- or better does not mean that they give A's to "anyone who shows up". I
would expect that the majority of students at Harvard do a lot more than just
show up. (I don't know much about Harvard specifically but this is true of
most universities).

> 
> http://qz.com/153694/the-most-commonly-awarded-grade-at-harvard-is-an-a/
> 
> Presumably they're protecting their business model. Students are 
> customers, and if your customers are paying a small fortune to attend, 
> they need to get something in return. Knowledge is good, but you can't 
> put knowledge on a CV or frame it and put it on a wall.
> 
> It would be interesting to think about the incentives which have lead to 
> an over-reliance on take-home assignments rather than exams, as well as 
> the pros and cons of one versus the other. Don't get me wrong, there are 
> advantages to assignments as well, but I think that the total prohibition 
> on collaboration is misguided. The question in my mind is how to 
> encourage students to learn from each other rather than to merely 
> mechanically copy from each other?
> 
> Relevant:
> 
> http://qz.com/157579/confession-of-an-ivy-league-teaching-assistant-heres-why-i-inflated-grades/

I can definitely empathise with what she says. Once I started marking
assignments it quickly became apparent that my standards were higher than
those of other people. Every now and again I would mark a big assignment
and get a deluge of grief from the students who had done badly. If it's a
small assignment (say 5 students) then you can build something out of that and
spend time preparing them for future assignments. If it's a big assignment
(100+ students) then it's just a whole load of grief that no one really wants.

The problem of students giving you grief doesn't really happen with exams
because in that case if someone complains it's not you (the original marker)
who has to talk to them and remark it. Where I work they have to fill out
their feedback forms before they take the exam so they can't use that to
complain about the exam being too hard or being marked too harshly. But what
does happen is that if the average grades are too high you get in trouble for
the exam being too easy. If the grade is too low you get in trouble since
you've apparently done a bad job teaching. There's a conflict of interest
right there (being both the teacher and the examiner) and it basically results
in everything adjusting to the ability of the students rather than measuring
it objectively.

Also I don't know why the Harvard TA says that this isn't a problem in the UK.
Here in the UK the government does it with national externally marked exams:

http://www.theguardian.com/education/2012/may/01/gcse-alevels-easier-says-ofqual

I would estimate that over the past ~50 years school standards for Maths and
Physics in the UK have slipped by ~1 academic year. Perhaps that's why we make
them do 4 years at university now...


Oscar

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#64411

On Tue, 21 Jan 2014 10:32:13 +0000, Oscar Benjamin wrote:

> ... When you set assignments the students will usually learn more if
> they work in groups. However at some point you need to try and assess
> how much they've individually learned. I find in practice that it's
> easy to tell when a student has copied someone else without really
> understanding what they're doing though. Of course if they just pay
> someone else to do it for them then there's not much you can do...

I had a programming teacher in high school who encouraged us to work
however we wanted, individually or in groups.  There were two
conditions:  (1) each student had to turn in a complete assignment, and
(2) he reserved the right to question anyone about anything they turned
in.  He observed us working in class enough to know whom to question.  I
know that a couple of students were busted early on; I don't know how it
all turned out in the end.

Dan

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#64342

Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> writes:

> On Mon, Jan 20, 2014 at 4:21 PM, Dan Stromberg <drsalists@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I did a short time of teaching while I was in school. If three
> > students all turned in the same assignment, they all got docked
> > significantly. There was no "who copied off of whom?", it was
> > "someone shared when they shouldn't have."
>
> What a wonderful way to promote an attitude of "my code is MY CODE and
> should never leave my sight". What a delightful way of thinking to
> unleash on the world.

Teachers are asked to grade each student on how that student exercises
the relevant skills.

Sometimes the relevant skills include collaboration, in which case the
students should be expected and encouraged to base their work directly
on the work of others. In these cases, we would expect the teacher not
to discourage sharing of information.

But sometimes different skills are being examined, and the student
should be exercising skills on their own without basing it directly on
the work of others. In these cases, penalties for plagiarism are
appropriate, would you agree?

-- 
 \      “When I wake up in the morning, I just can't get started until |
  `\     I've had that first, piping hot pot of coffee. Oh, I've tried |
_o__)                                    other enemas...” —Emo Philips |
Ben Finney

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#64344

Thanks all for help and positive comments. Actually, I tried to ask some questions but I was discouraged to do so saying that I was working on a project or some assignment. Truth be told I am stuck at one point and since I don't have experience with programming language, I have been working for it for two days but couldn't come up with some idea so posted some questions of the same format just to know whether there is particular method etc to do so. Hint would have been enough but I was strictly discouraged. You know the pain of working on assignment related to areas like socket programming and you even don't know how to use dictionaries and you are given only a week. Atleast I am trying to learn. The things that I am asking here are just basics on which my whole code would be building upon. But, as I said time is very less and have other courses also so wanted to know just the manipulation of dictionaries. 

If you allow me I can post a small part of that assignment, it just requires the manipulation with dictionary which I am not getting. I am not asking to write a code for me. But a small hint would get me out of trouble. 

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#64347

indar kumar <indarkumar59@gmail.com> writes:

> Hint would have been enough but I was strictly discouraged.

You asked for private help, specifically to subvert the rules against
plagiarism you're subject to.

So no, I don't believe this modification of your request to be sincere.
You asked for help cheating, and you were refused. Please take a hint,
and do your assignment under the terms your teacher has set.

-- 
 \                             “Holy tintinnabulation, Batman!” —Robin |
  `\                                                                   |
_o__)                                                                  |
Ben Finney

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#64470

On Mon, 20 Jan 2014 19:17:35 +1100, Ben Finney wrote:

> indar kumar <indarkumar59@gmail.com> writes:
> 
>> Hint would have been enough but I was strictly discouraged.
> 
> You asked for private help, specifically to subvert the rules against
> plagiarism you're subject to.
> 
> So no, I don't believe this modification of your request to be sincere.
> You asked for help cheating, and you were refused. Please take a hint,
> and do your assignment under the terms your teacher has set.

That is the harshest, least "good faith" interpretation of the OP's post 
I have ever read. It doesn't look to me like that attitude is intended to 
be welcoming to students who are trying to walk the narrow tightrope of 
being part of a community of programmers who value sharing and 
collaboration while avoiding running foul of overly strict academic rules 
about so-called plagiarism.



-- 
Steven

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