Re: Why Python 3?

References	<mailman.9344.1397878113.18130.python-list@python.org> <7x8ur1esa5.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <CAPTjJmqAeuFnOmW890ykPkk4L7JpgYFtFpd6uk1xAXtt2MgBMw@mail.gmail.com> <CALwzidmk9ogErqsF9ghM4_Bi=+n2qwCTpqJ48exOgg+L-2Gd_Q@mail.gmail.com>
Date	2014-04-19 19:37 +1000
Subject	Re: Why Python 3?
From	Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.python
Message-ID	<mailman.9354.1397900259.18130.python-list@python.org> (permalink)

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On Sat, Apr 19, 2014 at 7:25 PM, Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> wrote:
> The change from / denoting "classic
> division" to "true division" really only affects the case where both
> operands are integers, so far as I'm aware.  If you want to divide two
> integers and get a decimal result, then convert one or both of them to
> decimals first; you would have needed to do the same with classic
> division.

If float were a perfect superset of int, and the only logical superset
when you want non-integers, then it'd be fine. But if you're mixing
int and Decimal, you have to explicitly convert, whereas if you're
mixing int and float, you don't. Why is it required to be explicit
with Decimal but not float? Of all the possible alternate types, why
float? Only because...

> As for "why float" specifically, the division __future__ import has
> been around since 2.2, longer than either decimals or fractions.

... it already existed. There's no particular reason to up-cast to
float, specifically, and it can cause problems with large integers -
either by losing accuracy, or by outright overflowing.

Suppose you take an integer, multiply it by 10, and divide it by 5. In
theory, that's the same as multiplying by 2, right? Mathematically it
is. In C it might not be, because the multiplication might overflow;
but Python, like a number of other modern languages, has an integer
type that won't overflow. In Python 2, doing the obvious thing works:

x * 10 / 5 == x * 2

In Python 3, you have to say "Oh but I want my integer division to
result in an integer":

x * 10 // 5 == x * 2

Yes, I can see that it's nice for simple interactive use. You type
"1/2" and you get back 0.5. But doesn't it just exchange one set of
problems ("dividing integers by integers rounds") for another set
("floating point arithmetic isn't real number arithmetic")?

Anyway. While I think it was a mistake to bless float in that way, I'm
aware that it isn't going to change. Which is why, for anyone who's
looking at starting a project fresh, I recommend "from __future__
import division", as it'll make the port to Py3 that much easier.

ChrisA

Thread

Why Python 3? Anthony Papillion <papillion@gmail.com> - 2014-04-18 22:28 -0500
  Re: Why Python 3? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-18 23:40 -0700
    Re: Why Python 3? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-04-19 17:34 +1000
      Re: Why Python 3? Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-04-19 09:26 -0400
        Re: Why Python 3? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-04-19 23:42 +1000
        Re: Why Python 3? Albert-Jan Roskam <fomcl@yahoo.com> - 2014-04-19 10:57 -0700
        Re: Why Python 3? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-04-20 10:07 +0000
    Re: Why Python 3? Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2014-04-19 03:25 -0600
      Re: Why Python 3? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-04-19 12:59 +0300
    Re: Why Python 3? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-04-19 19:37 +1000
      Integer and float division [was Re: Why Python 3?] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-04-20 11:02 +0000
        Re: Integer and float division [was Re: Why Python 3?] Jussi Piitulainen <jpiitula@ling.helsinki.fi> - 2014-04-20 15:38 +0300
          Re: Integer and float division [was Re: Why Python 3?] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-04-20 15:09 +0000
        Re: Integer and float division [was Re: Why Python 3?] Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2014-04-21 11:44 +1200
    Re: Why Python 3? Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-04-19 13:23 -0400
      Re: Why Python 3? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-19 20:25 -0700
        Re: Why Python 3? Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-04-20 19:15 +1000
        Re: Why Python 3? Walter Hurry <walterhurry@lavabit.com> - 2014-04-20 23:50 +0000
          Re: Why Python 3? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-04-21 10:00 +1000
            Re: Why Python 3? HoneyMonster <nobody@someplace.invalid> - 2014-04-21 04:08 +0000
          Re: Why Python 3? Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-04-21 01:11 +0100
    Re: Why Python 3? Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-04-19 18:31 +0100
    Re: Why Python 3? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-04-20 03:53 +1000
    Re: Why Python 3? Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2014-04-19 13:58 -0600
    Re: Why Python 3? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-04-20 06:31 +1000
      Re: Why Python 3? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2014-04-20 13:06 +1200
        Re: Why Python 3? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-04-20 11:28 +1000
          Re: Why Python 3? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2014-04-21 10:52 +1200
            Re: Why Python 3? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-04-21 09:24 +1000
              Re: Why Python 3? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-04-21 03:43 +0000
                Re: Why Python 3? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-04-21 14:43 +1000
                Re: Why Python 3? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2014-04-22 09:58 +1200
                Re: Why Python 3? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-04-21 14:48 +1000
                Re: Why Python 3? wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2014-04-21 02:42 -0700
                Re: Why Python 3? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2014-04-22 10:28 +1200
                Re: Why Python 3? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-04-22 08:43 +1000
                Re: Why Python 3? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2014-04-22 18:03 +1200
        Re: Why Python 3? Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-04-20 00:17 -0400
          Re: Why Python 3? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2014-04-21 11:13 +1200
            Re: Why Python 3? Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-04-20 20:09 -0400
    Re: Why Python 3? Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2014-04-19 14:38 -0600
    Re: Why Python 3? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-04-20 06:53 +1000
      Re: Why Python 3? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2014-04-20 13:35 +1200
    Re: Why Python 3? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-04-20 09:59 +0000
      Unicode in Python Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-04-21 20:57 -0700
        Re: Unicode in Python Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-04-22 01:44 -0400
          Re: Unicode in Python Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-04-21 23:18 -0700
            Re: Unicode in Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-04-22 16:32 +1000
        Re: Unicode in Python Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2014-04-22 06:11 +0000
          Re: Unicode in Python Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-04-21 23:30 -0700
            Re: Unicode in Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-04-22 16:44 +1000
            Re: Unicode in Python wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2014-04-22 02:07 -0700
              Re: Unicode in Python Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-04-22 12:21 +0000
                Re: Unicode in Python wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2014-04-22 08:28 -0700
        Re: Unicode in Python Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2014-04-22 00:31 -0600
          Re: Unicode in Python Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-04-22 02:23 -0700
          Re: Unicode in Python Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-04-22 11:09 -0700
    Re: Why Python 3? Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2014-04-20 10:22 -0600
      Re: Why Python 3? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2014-04-21 11:56 +1200
        Re: Why Python 3? Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2014-04-20 18:29 -0600
    Re: Why Python 3? MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2014-04-20 17:41 +0100
    Re: Why Python 3? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-04-21 02:46 +1000
      Re: Why Python 3? Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-04-20 14:40 -0700
        Re: Why Python 3? Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-04-20 17:58 -0400
        Re: Why Python 3? Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2014-04-20 18:02 -0400
          Re: Why Python 3? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2014-04-21 12:22 +1200
        Re: Why Python 3? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-04-21 02:13 +0000
  Re: Why Python 3? Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2014-04-19 13:53 +0200
    Re: Why Python 3? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-04-19 22:46 +1000
    Re: Why Python 3? Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-04-19 08:59 -0700
  Re: Why Python 3? Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2014-04-19 07:41 -0700
  Re: Why Python 3? Thomas Lehmann <thomas.lehmann.private@googlemail.com> - 2014-05-06 09:28 -0700

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