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Re: Why no warnings when re-assigning builtin names?

Date 2011-08-16 10:48 -0700
From Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us>
Subject Re: Why no warnings when re-assigning builtin names?
References (3 earlier) <mailman.34.1313464992.27778.python-list@python.org> <4e49fcd7$0$29974$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com> <2A3EB048-1F10-46E8-973F-9BBD303E7B9F@semanchuk.com> <mailman.70.1313508227.27778.python-list@python.org> <slrnj4l90t.1pqc.usenet-nospam@guild.seebs.net>
Newsgroups comp.lang.python
Message-ID <mailman.89.1313515919.27778.python-list@python.org> (permalink)

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Seebs wrote:
> On 2011-08-16, Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> wrote:
>> What makes you think it's unintentional?
> 
> Programming experience.
> 
> People *often* do things unintentionally.
> 
>> Seems to me the real issue is somebody using a builtin, such as str or 
>> int, and that they somehow manage to do this without realizing, "wait a 
>> sec', that's one of my variables!"  I don't see that as a problem that 
>> Python needs to solve.
> 
> I think the word "my" prejudices the case.

But fits in well with the OP.


> Imagine stepping into a large project that uses multiple frameworks and
> class libraries and so on.  You know Python but you're new to the project.
> 
> Under which circumstance will you have more problems?
> 
> 1.  There is not a single shadowed built-in in the entire project.
> 2.  There are dozens of shadowed built-ins based on when the original
> programmer felt there wasn't going to be a need for a given built-in
> feature, or possibly just didn't know about it.

My first course of action would be to learn what I'm patching before I 
patch it.  Scope helps in the case of shadowing; lint helps to give 
warnings about that and other things as well.


> Also, how easy or hard do you think it will be to debug those problems?
> What's your first response going to be if, on a screen which doesn't
> contain the word file at all, you try to use the file built-in and you
> get some cryptic error?  Are you going to know to go looking for the
> shadow right away?

I should have a pretty good clue from the traceback, and a couple prints 
or logs around the offending lines should give me the rest.

~Ethan~

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Re: Why no warnings when re-assigning builtin names? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-08-15 23:15 +0100
  Re: Why no warnings when re-assigning builtin names? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-08-16 11:32 +1000
    Re: Why no warnings when re-assigning builtin names? Philip Semanchuk <philip@semanchuk.com> - 2011-08-15 23:23 -0400
      Re: Why no warnings when re-assigning builtin names? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-08-16 15:15 +1000
        Re: Why no warnings when re-assigning builtin names? Philip Semanchuk <philip@semanchuk.com> - 2011-08-16 10:13 -0400
          Re: Why no warnings when re-assigning builtin names? rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> - 2011-08-16 08:44 -0700
            Re: Why no warnings when re-assigning builtin names? Andrew Berg <bahamutzero8825@gmail.com> - 2011-08-16 12:23 -0500
        Re: Why no warnings when re-assigning builtin names? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-08-16 16:12 +0100
        Re: Why no warnings when re-assigning builtin names? Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2011-08-16 08:41 -0700
          Re: Why no warnings when re-assigning builtin names? Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-08-16 17:11 +0000
            Re: Why no warnings when re-assigning builtin names? Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2011-08-16 10:48 -0700
            Re: Why no warnings when re-assigning builtin names? Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2011-08-16 13:34 -0500
        Re: Why no warnings when re-assigning builtin names? Philip Semanchuk <philip@semanchuk.com> - 2011-08-16 11:31 -0400
        Re: Why no warnings when re-assigning builtin names? Philip Semanchuk <philip@semanchuk.com> - 2011-08-16 11:38 -0400
        Re: Why no warnings when re-assigning builtin names? Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2011-08-16 09:19 -0700
          Re: Why no warnings when re-assigning builtin names? Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-08-16 17:11 +0000
            Re: Why no warnings when re-assigning builtin names? Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2011-08-16 10:43 -0700
              Re: Why no warnings when re-assigning builtin names? Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-08-16 18:56 +0000
                Re: Why no warnings when re-assigning builtin names? Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2011-08-16 19:32 -0400
                Re: Why no warnings when re-assigning builtin names? Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-08-16 23:49 +0000
                Re: Why no warnings when re-assigning builtin names? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-08-17 01:02 +0100
                Re: Why no warnings when re-assigning builtin names? Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-08-17 01:35 +0000
                Re: Why no warnings when re-assigning builtin names? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-08-17 08:27 +0100
                Re: Why no warnings when re-assigning builtin names? Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-08-17 16:33 +0000
                Re: Why no warnings when re-assigning builtin names? Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2011-08-16 22:10 -0400
            Re: Why no warnings when re-assigning builtin names? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-08-16 19:23 +0100
        Re: Why no warnings when re-assigning builtin names? Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2011-08-16 11:10 -0500
        Re: Why no warnings when re-assigning builtin names? Philip Semanchuk <philip@semanchuk.com> - 2011-08-16 12:32 -0400
          Re: Why no warnings when re-assigning builtin names? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-08-17 11:29 +1000
            Re: Why no warnings when re-assigning builtin names? Philip Semanchuk <philip@semanchuk.com> - 2011-08-16 22:16 -0400
        Re: Why no warnings when re-assigning builtin names? Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2011-08-16 10:07 -0700
        Re: Why no warnings when re-assigning builtin names? Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-08-16 17:11 +0000
          Re: Why no warnings when re-assigning builtin names? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-08-17 10:58 +1000
            Re: Why no warnings when re-assigning builtin names? Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-08-17 03:17 +0000
              Re: Why no warnings when re-assigning builtin names? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-08-17 18:15 +1000
                Re: Why no warnings when re-assigning builtin names? Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-08-17 16:33 +0000
                Re: Why no warnings when re-assigning builtin names? Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2011-08-17 10:36 -0700
                Re: Why no warnings when re-assigning builtin names? Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-08-17 17:36 +0000
                Re: Why no warnings when re-assigning builtin names? Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2011-08-17 11:13 -0700
                Re: Why no warnings when re-assigning builtin names? Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-08-17 18:09 +0000
                Re: Why no warnings when re-assigning builtin names? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-08-17 18:42 +0100
                Re: Why no warnings when re-assigning builtin names? Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-08-17 17:38 +0000
                Re: Why no warnings when re-assigning builtin names? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-08-17 19:02 +0100
                Re: Why no warnings when re-assigning builtin names? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-08-18 10:36 +1000
            Re: Why no warnings when re-assigning builtin names? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-08-17 08:34 +0100
        RE: Why no warnings when re-assigning builtin names? "Gerrat Rickert" <grickert@coldstorage.com> - 2011-08-16 13:15 -0400
        Re: Why no warnings when re-assigning builtin names? Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2011-08-16 19:29 -0400
        Re: Why no warnings when re-assigning builtin names? Philip Semanchuk <philip@semanchuk.com> - 2011-08-16 20:18 -0400
        Re: Why no warnings when re-assigning builtin names? Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2011-08-16 22:15 -0400
        Re: Why no warnings when re-assigning builtin names? Philip Semanchuk <philip@semanchuk.com> - 2011-08-16 22:51 -0400
        RE: Why no warnings when re-assigning builtin names? "Gerrat Rickert" <grickert@coldstorage.com> - 2011-08-17 09:30 -0400
    Re: Why no warnings when re-assigning builtin names? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-08-16 09:16 +0100
  Re: Why no warnings when re-assigning builtin names? Chris Torek <nospam@torek.net> - 2011-08-31 21:30 +0000
    Re: Why no warnings when re-assigning builtin names? Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-08-31 21:57 +0000

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