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Groups > comp.lang.python > #11564

Re: Why no warnings when re-assigning builtin names?

Date 2011-08-16 08:41 -0700
From Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us>
Subject Re: Why no warnings when re-assigning builtin names?
References (1 earlier) <mailman.22.1313446504.27778.python-list@python.org> <4e49c89a$0$30001$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com> <mailman.34.1313464992.27778.python-list@python.org> <4e49fcd7$0$29974$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com> <2A3EB048-1F10-46E8-973F-9BBD303E7B9F@semanchuk.com>
Newsgroups comp.lang.python
Message-ID <mailman.70.1313508227.27778.python-list@python.org> (permalink)

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Philip Semanchuk wrote:
> On Aug 16, 2011, at 1:15 AM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>> Protecting n00bs from their own errors is an admirable aim, but have you
>> considered that warnings for something which may be harmless could do more
>> harm than good?
> 
> Isn't the whole point of a warning to highlight behavior that's not strictly
 > wrong but looks iffy? Sort of, "I can't be sure, but this looks like 
trouble
 > to me. I hope you know what you're doing". If we are to eschew 
warnings in
 > cases where they might be highlighting something harmless, then we would
 > have no warnings at all.

Sounds good to me.  ;)  Keep such things in the IDE's, and then those 
who desire such behavior can have it there.  Do not clutter Python with 
such.

>> Perhaps. But I'm not so sure it is worth the cost of extra code to detect
>> shadowing and raise a warning. After all, the average coder probably never
>> shadows anything,
> 
> One need look no further than the standard library to see a strong
 > counterexample. grep through the Python source for " file =". I see 
dozens
> of examples of this builtin being used as a common variable name. I would
 > call contributors to the standard library above-average coders, and 
we can
 > see them unintentionally shadowing builtins many times.

What makes you think it's unintentional?  file makes a good variable 
name, and if you don't need it to actually open a file there's nothing 
wrong with using it yourself.


>> and for those that do, once they get bitten *once* they
>> either never do it again or learn how to shadow safely.
> 
> I have done it plenty of times, never been bitten (thankfully) and still
 > do it by accident now and again.

Seems to me the real issue is somebody using a builtin, such as str or 
int, and that they somehow manage to do this without realizing, "wait a 
sec', that's one of my variables!"  I don't see that as a problem that 
Python needs to solve.

~Ethan~

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Thread

Re: Why no warnings when re-assigning builtin names? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-08-15 23:15 +0100
  Re: Why no warnings when re-assigning builtin names? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-08-16 11:32 +1000
    Re: Why no warnings when re-assigning builtin names? Philip Semanchuk <philip@semanchuk.com> - 2011-08-15 23:23 -0400
      Re: Why no warnings when re-assigning builtin names? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-08-16 15:15 +1000
        Re: Why no warnings when re-assigning builtin names? Philip Semanchuk <philip@semanchuk.com> - 2011-08-16 10:13 -0400
          Re: Why no warnings when re-assigning builtin names? rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> - 2011-08-16 08:44 -0700
            Re: Why no warnings when re-assigning builtin names? Andrew Berg <bahamutzero8825@gmail.com> - 2011-08-16 12:23 -0500
        Re: Why no warnings when re-assigning builtin names? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-08-16 16:12 +0100
        Re: Why no warnings when re-assigning builtin names? Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2011-08-16 08:41 -0700
          Re: Why no warnings when re-assigning builtin names? Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-08-16 17:11 +0000
            Re: Why no warnings when re-assigning builtin names? Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2011-08-16 10:48 -0700
            Re: Why no warnings when re-assigning builtin names? Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2011-08-16 13:34 -0500
        Re: Why no warnings when re-assigning builtin names? Philip Semanchuk <philip@semanchuk.com> - 2011-08-16 11:31 -0400
        Re: Why no warnings when re-assigning builtin names? Philip Semanchuk <philip@semanchuk.com> - 2011-08-16 11:38 -0400
        Re: Why no warnings when re-assigning builtin names? Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2011-08-16 09:19 -0700
          Re: Why no warnings when re-assigning builtin names? Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-08-16 17:11 +0000
            Re: Why no warnings when re-assigning builtin names? Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2011-08-16 10:43 -0700
              Re: Why no warnings when re-assigning builtin names? Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-08-16 18:56 +0000
                Re: Why no warnings when re-assigning builtin names? Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2011-08-16 19:32 -0400
                Re: Why no warnings when re-assigning builtin names? Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-08-16 23:49 +0000
                Re: Why no warnings when re-assigning builtin names? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-08-17 01:02 +0100
                Re: Why no warnings when re-assigning builtin names? Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-08-17 01:35 +0000
                Re: Why no warnings when re-assigning builtin names? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-08-17 08:27 +0100
                Re: Why no warnings when re-assigning builtin names? Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-08-17 16:33 +0000
                Re: Why no warnings when re-assigning builtin names? Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2011-08-16 22:10 -0400
            Re: Why no warnings when re-assigning builtin names? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-08-16 19:23 +0100
        Re: Why no warnings when re-assigning builtin names? Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2011-08-16 11:10 -0500
        Re: Why no warnings when re-assigning builtin names? Philip Semanchuk <philip@semanchuk.com> - 2011-08-16 12:32 -0400
          Re: Why no warnings when re-assigning builtin names? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-08-17 11:29 +1000
            Re: Why no warnings when re-assigning builtin names? Philip Semanchuk <philip@semanchuk.com> - 2011-08-16 22:16 -0400
        Re: Why no warnings when re-assigning builtin names? Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2011-08-16 10:07 -0700
        Re: Why no warnings when re-assigning builtin names? Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-08-16 17:11 +0000
          Re: Why no warnings when re-assigning builtin names? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-08-17 10:58 +1000
            Re: Why no warnings when re-assigning builtin names? Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-08-17 03:17 +0000
              Re: Why no warnings when re-assigning builtin names? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-08-17 18:15 +1000
                Re: Why no warnings when re-assigning builtin names? Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-08-17 16:33 +0000
                Re: Why no warnings when re-assigning builtin names? Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2011-08-17 10:36 -0700
                Re: Why no warnings when re-assigning builtin names? Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-08-17 17:36 +0000
                Re: Why no warnings when re-assigning builtin names? Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2011-08-17 11:13 -0700
                Re: Why no warnings when re-assigning builtin names? Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-08-17 18:09 +0000
                Re: Why no warnings when re-assigning builtin names? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-08-17 18:42 +0100
                Re: Why no warnings when re-assigning builtin names? Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-08-17 17:38 +0000
                Re: Why no warnings when re-assigning builtin names? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-08-17 19:02 +0100
                Re: Why no warnings when re-assigning builtin names? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-08-18 10:36 +1000
            Re: Why no warnings when re-assigning builtin names? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-08-17 08:34 +0100
        RE: Why no warnings when re-assigning builtin names? "Gerrat Rickert" <grickert@coldstorage.com> - 2011-08-16 13:15 -0400
        Re: Why no warnings when re-assigning builtin names? Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2011-08-16 19:29 -0400
        Re: Why no warnings when re-assigning builtin names? Philip Semanchuk <philip@semanchuk.com> - 2011-08-16 20:18 -0400
        Re: Why no warnings when re-assigning builtin names? Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2011-08-16 22:15 -0400
        Re: Why no warnings when re-assigning builtin names? Philip Semanchuk <philip@semanchuk.com> - 2011-08-16 22:51 -0400
        RE: Why no warnings when re-assigning builtin names? "Gerrat Rickert" <grickert@coldstorage.com> - 2011-08-17 09:30 -0400
    Re: Why no warnings when re-assigning builtin names? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-08-16 09:16 +0100
  Re: Why no warnings when re-assigning builtin names? Chris Torek <nospam@torek.net> - 2011-08-31 21:30 +0000
    Re: Why no warnings when re-assigning builtin names? Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-08-31 21:57 +0000

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