Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated

From	Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.python
Subject	Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated
Date	2016-04-20 12:21 +1000
Message-ID	<mailman.8.1461118919.12923.python-list@python.org> (permalink)
References	(15 earlier) <20160419124321.361751dc@bigbox.christie.dr> <1461092090.2638611.583593041.7C981FAD@webmail.messagingengine.com> <mailman.34.1461092093.30862.python-list@python.org> <5716dda3$0$1621$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com> <CAPTjJmrWGpsXiUSUJ35xjFAaJLSBNs80onW4RwSHLSXsVFisZQ@mail.gmail.com>

Show all headers | View raw

On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 11:38 AM, Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> wrote:
> As for "visual programming languages" (languages with an inherent visual
> form which lacks any simple or obvious text equivalent), they've been a
> dead-end. Even languages like Scratch cannot do without text. Look at
> the "Hello World" program here:
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Scratch_Hello_World.png
>
> The graphical elements are pure presentation, to make it more palatable to
> children and beginners.
>
> Don't think that I'm opposed to such visual presentations.

Scratch itself is aimed at children, but there's a very similar
language (or maybe it's actually a Scratch derivative) used by the
Unreal Engine to animate sprites - the "blueprint" system. I've seen
it used by someone who doesn't consider herself a programmer in any
way, yet she has a sufficiently logical mind to do the same kind of
work as programming requires. Effectively, flow control has been
turned into a two-dimensional graph, with nodes pointing to other
nodes, but each node is still described primarily with text (using
colour to add instant recognition).

I think there's a lot of value in depicting flow control graphically.
For anyone who's accustomed to working visually, seeing nice little
tagged blocks of "stuff", linked by little lines to show how you get
from one to another, is way easier to handle than a page of "while"
and "if" and "else" statements. But even there, each piece of flow
control is *defined* in text - there's a short message saying what the
condition is, and then two or more pieces of text defining the
potential results of the condition, from which you can link to
destinations.

https://www.twitch.tv/ellalune/v/59455498 - starts at about the 41
minute mark. Notably, around the 00:42:30 point, I say that this is
code, and she says that, well, it sort of is code, but it doesn't
*feel* like code.

Probably the least text-y form of coding that I've ever seen is turtle
graphics, where you depict something using (usually) two dimensional
movement and rotation. But even there, it's normal to use text to
define all the actual actions. Take this, for example:

https://studio.code.org/s/frozen/reset

A nice tutorial, a theme that'll appeal to a lot of people (including
young children), and primarily point-and-click (or drag) to move
components around - but you can *read* the meaning of each component,
in *text*. Once again, it uses a visual representation of flow control
to bury some of the complexity, but the basic actions (move, turn,
etc) are text - and if you want to "capture" a series of actions to
reuse, the way to do that is to give it a name, because names and
words are how people think.

ChrisA

Thread

Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-04-16 14:38 +1000
  Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Bob Martin <bob.martin@excite.com> - 2016-04-16 08:05 +0100
    Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-04-16 11:06 +0300
      Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 18:32 +1000
        Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-04-16 11:51 +0300
          Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 19:30 +1000
          Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Michael Selik <michael.selik@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 09:34 +0000
          Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-04-16 22:03 +1000
          Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Stephen Hansen <me+python@ixokai.io> - 2016-04-16 05:32 -0700
          Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Larry Martell <larry.martell@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 10:53 -0400
            Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-04-16 19:51 +0300
              Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Larry Martell <larry.martell@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 12:58 -0400
                Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-04-16 19:18 +0100
                Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Larry Martell <larry.martell@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 14:53 -0400
                Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated alex wright <wrightalexw@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 15:21 -0400
                Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-04-16 19:08 -0400
              Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2016-04-16 13:25 -0400
                Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-04-16 21:33 +0300
              Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2016-04-16 12:07 -0700
              Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2016-04-17 06:08 +1000
              Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2016-04-16 16:50 -0500
              Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Tim Delaney <timothy.c.delaney@gmail.com> - 2016-04-17 08:15 +1000
                Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-04-17 01:30 +0300
                Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2016-04-17 07:38 -0600
              Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-04-16 19:02 -0400
                Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-04-17 00:25 +0100
                Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-04-17 09:33 +1000
                Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-04-17 01:29 +0100
                Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated alex wright <wrightalexw@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 19:43 -0400
              Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-04-17 09:11 +1000
              Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Grant Edwards <grant.b.edwards@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 23:19 +0000
              Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2016-04-16 19:12 -0500
              Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2016-04-17 01:24 +0100
              Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2016-04-16 20:30 -0500
                Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2016-04-17 16:35 +0200
                Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2016-04-17 13:11 -0500
              Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2016-04-16 21:59 -0400
              Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 20:44 -0700
                Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-04-17 13:49 +1000
                Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-04-17 18:39 -0700
                Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-04-18 13:19 +1000
                Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-04-17 20:48 -0700
                Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated David Palao <dpalao.python@gmail.com> - 2016-04-18 13:35 +0200
                Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-04-17 11:04 +0100
                Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-04-17 21:06 -0700
                Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2016-04-18 21:03 +1200
                Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-04-18 04:07 -0700
                Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-04-17 14:01 +0300
                Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-04-17 21:14 +1000
                Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-04-17 13:04 +0100
                Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-04-17 15:10 +0300
                Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2016-04-18 08:13 +1000
                Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-04-18 11:57 +1000
                Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-04-18 11:02 +0300
                Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2016-04-18 20:43 +1200
                Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-04-18 12:17 +0300
              Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated eryk sun <eryksun@gmail.com> - 2016-04-17 00:01 -0500
              Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2016-04-17 01:10 -0400
              Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated eryk sun <eryksun@gmail.com> - 2016-04-17 03:14 -0500
              Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-04-17 12:13 -0400
              Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated eryk sun <eryksun@gmail.com> - 2016-04-17 15:24 -0500
              Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2016-04-17 14:41 -0600
                Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2016-04-18 11:56 +1200
                Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2016-04-17 20:29 -0400
              Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Sivan Greenberg <sivan@vitakka.co> - 2016-04-18 16:35 +0300
                Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Pete Forman <petef4+usenet@gmail.com> - 2016-04-18 22:14 +0100
                Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2016-04-18 15:29 -0600
                Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Pete Forman <petef4+usenet@gmail.com> - 2016-04-18 23:20 +0100
                Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2016-04-19 17:39 +1200
                Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2016-04-19 08:58 +1000
                Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated sohcahtoa82@gmail.com - 2016-04-18 18:19 -0700
                Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-04-18 20:04 -0700
                Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2016-04-18 23:29 -0400
                Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-04-18 20:54 -0700
                Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2016-04-19 00:11 -0400
                Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-04-19 05:55 -0700
                Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2016-04-19 10:05 -0400
                Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-04-20 00:13 +1000
                Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Pete Forman <petef4+usenet@gmail.com> - 2016-04-19 08:34 +0100
                Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2016-04-19 18:04 +1000
                Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-04-19 11:09 +0300
                Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-04-19 18:17 +1000
                Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-04-19 04:37 -0700
                Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2016-04-19 08:17 -0500
                Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-04-19 07:10 -0700
                Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Grant Edwards <grant.b.edwards@gmail.com> - 2016-04-19 14:15 +0000
                Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-04-19 07:54 -0700
                Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-04-20 01:50 +1000
                Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-04-20 01:58 +1000
                Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Larry Martell <larry.martell@gmail.com> - 2016-04-19 13:06 -0400
                Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2016-04-19 17:13 +0000
                Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-04-20 00:24 +1000
                Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-04-20 02:14 +1000
                Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-04-19 09:46 -0700
                Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2016-04-19 12:43 -0500
                Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-04-19 11:05 -0700
                Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2016-04-19 14:54 -0400
                Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-04-20 10:34 +1000
                Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2016-04-19 22:02 -0400
                Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-04-20 11:38 +1000
                Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-04-20 12:21 +1000
                Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2016-04-19 23:23 -0400
                Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-04-20 13:41 +1000
                Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2016-04-20 02:08 -0400
                Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2016-04-20 00:48 -0700
                Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Oscar Benjamin <oscar.j.benjamin@gmail.com> - 2016-04-20 10:24 +0100
                Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Oscar Benjamin <oscar.j.benjamin@gmail.com> - 2016-04-20 10:26 +0100
                Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-04-20 07:51 -0400
                Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-04-19 21:04 -0700
                Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2016-04-20 06:50 +1000
                Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-04-20 06:59 +1000
                Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-04-20 00:35 +0300
                Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-04-20 11:03 +1000
                Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-04-19 21:13 -0700
                Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2016-04-20 18:39 +1200
                Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated sohcahtoa82@gmail.com - 2016-04-19 14:43 -0700
                Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-04-19 19:20 -0400
                Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Grant Edwards <grant.b.edwards@gmail.com> - 2016-04-19 23:22 +0000
                Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-04-20 09:33 +1000
                Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2016-04-19 19:02 -0500
                Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-04-20 10:32 +1000
                Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2016-04-19 21:57 -0400
                Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2016-04-19 01:49 -0700
                Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Paul Rudin <paul.nospam@rudin.co.uk> - 2016-04-19 11:49 +0100
                Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-04-19 14:47 +0300
                Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-04-19 05:06 -0700
                Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-04-19 15:14 +0300
                Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2016-04-19 15:07 +0200
                Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2016-04-19 08:31 -0500
                Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-04-19 23:41 +1000
                Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2016-04-19 08:50 -0500
                Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Alice Bevan–McGregor <alice@gothcandy.com> - 2016-04-19 10:45 -0400
          Falsehoods People Believe about PEP 8 (was: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated) Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2016-04-17 06:21 +1000
          Re: Falsehoods People Believe about PEP 8 (was: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated) Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-04-17 06:31 +1000
          Re: Falsehoods People Believe about PEP 8 (was: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated) Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2016-04-16 16:44 -0400
            Re: Falsehoods People Believe about PEP 8 (was: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated) Dan Sommers <dan@tombstonezero.net> - 2016-04-16 21:22 +0000
              Re: Falsehoods People Believe about PEP 8 (was: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated) Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-04-17 07:34 +1000
                Re: Falsehoods People Believe about PEP 8 (was: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated) Dan Sommers <dan@tombstonezero.net> - 2016-04-16 23:35 +0000
                Re: Falsehoods People Believe about PEP 8 (was: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated) Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-04-17 11:48 +1000
                Re: Falsehoods People Believe about PEP 8 (was: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated) Dan Sommers <dan@tombstonezero.net> - 2016-04-17 03:52 +0000
            Re: Falsehoods People Believe about PEP 8 (was: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated) Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-04-17 11:38 +1000
          Re: Falsehoods People Believe about PEP 8 (was: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated) Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-04-18 05:45 +1000

csiph-web