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Re: Explanation of list reference

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From Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com>
Date Sat, 15 Feb 2014 10:11:46 -0700
Subject Re: Explanation of list reference
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On Sat, Feb 15, 2014 at 9:29 AM, Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> wrote:
> Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info>:
>> On Sat, 15 Feb 2014 14:07:35 +0200, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
>>> Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info>:
>>>> On Sat, 15 Feb 2014 12:13:54 +0200, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
>>>>>    5. id(x) == id(y) iff x is y
>>>>
>>>> # Counter-example
>>>> py> x = 230000
>>>> py> idx = id(x)
>>>> py> del x
>>>> py> y = 420000
>>>> py> idy = id(y)
>>>> py> idx == idy
>>>> True
>>>
>>> I don't accept that as a counterexample.
>
>> Why?
>
> Nowhere do I see the violating "x is y".

You formulated your rule as a rule of inference.  The logical
inference from the above is that x is y, which is false even if it
can't be directly tested in Python.

>> All I need to do is show a case where two distinct objects have the
>> same ID.
>
> How do you know objects are "distinct"? Myself, I would use the "is"
> test.

Eliding over details of how one knows that both of the literals above
create objects, if the objects are separately created, then they are
distinct objects.

>>> That's the point. I don't think id() and "is" have any abstract
>>> meaning on top of the formal axioms.
>>
>> Who is talking about "abstract meaning"?
>
> I am. I mean, "implementation-independent".
>
>> Object identity is simple and well-defined in Python. I don't know why
>> you are so resistant to this. Read the documentation.
>
> It is not defined at all:
>
>    Every object has an identity, a type and a value. An object's
>    identity never changes once it has been created; you may think of it
>    as the object's address in memory. The 'is' operator compares the
>    identity of two objects; the id() function returns an integer
>    representing its identity.
>
> Thus "x and y are identical" *means* "x is y" and nothing else.

This notion of identity sounds useless, and if that is the way you
prefer to understand it then you can safely ignore that it exists.  I
think that most users though inherently understand the concept of
objects being distinct or identical and see the value in being able to
test for this.

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Explanation of list reference dave em <daveandem2000@gmail.com> - 2014-02-14 10:08 -0800
  Re: Explanation of list reference Jussi Piitulainen <jpiitula@ling.helsinki.fi> - 2014-02-14 20:26 +0200
    Re: Explanation of list reference dave em <daveandem2000@gmail.com> - 2014-02-14 10:54 -0800
      Re: Explanation of list reference Denis McMahon <denismfmcmahon@gmail.com> - 2014-02-14 19:20 +0000
      Re: Explanation of list reference Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-02-14 21:56 +0200
        Re: Explanation of list reference Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2014-02-14 13:17 -0700
          Re: Explanation of list reference Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-02-14 22:58 +0200
            Re: Explanation of list reference Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-02-15 08:16 +1100
              Re: Explanation of list reference Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-02-14 23:43 +0200
                Re: Explanation of list reference Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2014-02-14 19:00 -0500
                Re: Explanation of list reference dave em <daveandem2000@gmail.com> - 2014-02-14 16:26 -0800
                Re: Explanation of list reference Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-02-15 06:07 +0000
                Re: Explanation of list reference Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-02-15 11:00 +0200
                Re: Explanation of list reference Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-02-15 11:57 +1100
                Re: Explanation of list reference Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-02-14 17:55 -0800
                Re: Explanation of list reference Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-02-15 13:08 +1100
                Re: Explanation of list reference Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-02-14 18:34 -0800
                Re: Explanation of list reference Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-02-15 13:42 +1100
                Re: Explanation of list reference Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-02-14 19:14 -0800
                Re: Explanation of list reference Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-02-15 14:33 +1100
                Re: Explanation of list reference Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-02-14 20:24 -0800
                Re: Explanation of list reference Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-02-15 15:37 +1100
                Re: Explanation of list reference Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-02-15 06:54 +0000
                Re: Explanation of list reference Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-02-15 18:19 +1100
                Re: Explanation of list reference Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2014-02-14 22:20 -0700
                Re: Explanation of list reference Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-02-15 07:03 +0000
                Re: Explanation of list reference Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-02-15 16:31 +1100
                Re: Explanation of list reference Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-02-14 22:07 -0800
                Re: Explanation of list reference Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-02-15 17:19 +1100
                Re: Explanation of list reference Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-02-14 22:31 -0800
                Re: Explanation of list reference Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-02-15 17:23 +1100
                Re: Explanation of list reference Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2014-02-15 01:08 -0700
                Re: Explanation of list reference Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-02-15 12:42 +0000
                Re: Explanation of list reference Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-02-15 15:44 +0200
                Re: Explanation of list reference Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-02-16 06:00 -0800
                Re: Explanation of list reference Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2014-02-16 11:29 -0500
                Re: Explanation of list reference Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-02-16 08:50 -0800
                Re: Explanation of list reference Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-02-16 20:01 +0200
                Re: Explanation of list reference Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-02-16 18:36 +0000
                Re: Explanation of list reference Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-02-17 05:52 +0000
                Re: Explanation of list reference Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-02-15 15:40 -0500
                Re: Explanation of list reference Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-02-16 02:27 +0000
                Re: Explanation of list reference Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2014-02-15 19:02 +0000
                Re: Explanation of list reference Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-02-15 06:44 +0000
                Re: Explanation of list reference Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-02-15 18:05 +1100
                Re: Explanation of list reference Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2014-02-16 00:29 +1300
                Re: Explanation of list reference Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-02-15 06:15 +0000
                Re: Explanation of list reference Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-02-14 22:24 -0800
                Re: Explanation of list reference Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2014-02-16 00:32 +1300
                Re: Explanation of list reference Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-02-15 22:37 +1100
                Re: Explanation of list reference Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-02-15 11:10 +0200
                Re: Explanation of list reference Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-02-15 10:31 +0000
                Re: Explanation of list reference Christian Gollwitzer <auriocus@gmx.de> - 2014-02-15 10:44 +0100
                Re: Explanation of list reference Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-02-15 12:10 +0200
                Re: Explanation of list reference Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-02-15 10:53 +0000
                Re: Explanation of list reference Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2014-02-17 11:40 +1300
                Re: Explanation of list reference Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-02-17 05:57 +0000
                Re: Explanation of list reference Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-02-15 22:21 +1100
                Re: Explanation of list reference Alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2014-02-16 19:16 +0000
                Re: Explanation of list reference Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-02-15 15:20 +1100
                Re: Explanation of list reference Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-02-15 11:31 +0200
                Re: Explanation of list reference Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-02-15 12:13 +0200
                Re: Explanation of list reference Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-02-15 11:17 +0000
                Re: Explanation of list reference Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-02-15 14:07 +0200
                Re: Explanation of list reference Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-02-15 14:41 +0000
                Re: Explanation of list reference Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-02-15 18:29 +0200
                Re: Explanation of list reference Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-02-15 12:02 -0500
                Re: Explanation of list reference Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-02-15 09:30 -0800
                Re: Explanation of list reference Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2014-02-15 11:37 -0700
                Re: Explanation of list reference Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2014-02-15 11:45 -0700
                Re: Explanation of list reference Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-02-15 19:05 +0000
                Re: Explanation of list reference Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2014-02-15 10:11 -0700
                Re: Explanation of list reference Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-02-15 22:20 +0200
                Re: Explanation of list reference Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2014-02-15 14:20 -0700
                Re: Explanation of list reference Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-02-15 09:47 -0800
                Re: Explanation of list reference Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-02-15 19:17 +0000
                Re: Explanation of list reference Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-02-15 23:01 +0200
                Re: Explanation of list reference Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-02-16 02:25 +0000
                Re: Explanation of list reference Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-02-16 13:18 +0200
                Re: Explanation of list reference Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-02-15 22:31 +1100
                Re: Explanation of list reference Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-02-15 10:40 +0000
                Re: Explanation of list reference Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-02-15 22:17 +1100
            Re: Explanation of list reference Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-02-14 23:20 +0200
            Re: Explanation of list reference Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-02-16 10:08 +0200
              Re: Explanation of list reference Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2014-02-16 01:28 -0700
                Re: Explanation of list reference Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-02-16 12:52 +0200
                Re: Explanation of list reference Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-02-16 22:24 +1100
                Re: Explanation of list reference Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-02-16 12:04 +0000
                Re: Explanation of list reference Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-02-16 18:17 +0200
              Re: Explanation of list reference Jussi Piitulainen <jpiitula@ling.helsinki.fi> - 2014-02-16 10:35 +0200
              Re: Explanation of list reference Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2014-02-16 01:35 -0700
              Re: Explanation of list reference Alan Bawden <alan@scooby-doo.csail.mit.edu> - 2014-02-16 03:38 -0500
              Re: Explanation of list reference Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-02-16 08:40 +0000
                Re: Explanation of list reference Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-02-16 21:18 +1100
              Re: Explanation of list reference Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2014-02-16 12:10 -0500
        Re: Explanation of list reference Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2014-02-14 15:45 -0500
      Re: Explanation of list reference Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2014-02-14 13:12 -0700
      Re: Explanation of list reference Jussi Piitulainen <jpiitula@ling.helsinki.fi> - 2014-02-14 22:36 +0200
        Re: Explanation of list reference Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2014-02-16 01:03 +1300
        Re: Explanation of list reference Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-02-15 23:21 +1100
  Re: Explanation of list reference Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2014-02-14 13:42 -0500
  Re: Explanation of list reference Ryan Gonzalez <rymg19@gmail.com> - 2014-02-14 12:31 -0600
    Re: Explanation of list reference Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-02-15 05:36 +0000
      Re: Explanation of list reference Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-02-15 17:07 +1100
        Re: Explanation of list reference Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-02-15 06:48 +0000
          Re: Explanation of list reference Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-02-15 17:57 +1100
            Re: Explanation of list reference Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2014-02-16 01:18 +1300
              Re: Explanation of list reference Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-02-15 23:24 +1100
                Re: Explanation of list reference Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-02-15 15:25 +0200
                Re: Explanation of list reference Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-02-16 00:59 +1100
                Re: Explanation of list reference Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2014-02-17 11:54 +1300
                Re: Explanation of list reference Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-02-17 10:02 +1100
                Re: Explanation of list reference Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-02-16 18:46 -0500
                Re: Explanation of list reference Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-02-17 12:26 +1100
                Re: Explanation of list reference Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-02-17 10:05 +1100
                Re: Explanation of list reference Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-02-16 18:43 -0500
                Re: Explanation of list reference Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-02-17 11:04 +1100
                Re: Explanation of list reference Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-02-17 06:31 +0000
                Re: Explanation of list reference Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-02-17 05:43 -0800
                Re: Explanation of list reference Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2014-02-16 20:43 -0500
                Re: Explanation of list reference Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-02-17 12:59 +1100
                Re: Explanation of list reference Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-02-16 22:28 -0500
                Re: Explanation of list reference Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-02-17 14:52 +1100
                Re: Explanation of list reference Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-02-16 20:35 -0800
                Re: Explanation of list reference Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-02-17 08:03 +0000
                Re: Explanation of list reference Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-02-17 06:21 +0000
                Re: Explanation of list reference Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-02-17 18:11 +1100
                Re: Explanation of list reference Rotwang <sg552@hotmail.co.uk> - 2014-02-17 18:24 +0000
          Re: Explanation of list reference Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2014-02-15 14:30 -0500
  Re: Explanation of list reference Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-02-14 16:37 -0500
  Re: Explanation of list reference pecore@pascolo.net - 2014-02-14 23:34 +0100
  Re: Explanation of list reference Christian Gollwitzer <auriocus@gmx.de> - 2014-02-15 10:38 +0100
  Re: Explanation of list reference Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-02-16 01:20 +1100
  Re: Explanation of list reference Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-02-16 01:26 +1100
  Re: Explanation of list reference Joshua Landau <joshua@landau.ws> - 2014-02-15 20:44 +0000
  Re: Explanation of list reference Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-02-16 09:27 +1100

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