Re: Explanation of list reference

References	(10 earlier) <87mwhsn0nx.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net> <52ff4ce4$0$29973$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com> <87iosgmveg.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net> <52ff7cac$0$29973$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com> <87wqgwl4oo.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>
From	Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com>
Date	2014-02-15 10:11 -0700
Subject	Re: Explanation of list reference
Newsgroups	comp.lang.python
Message-ID	<mailman.7009.1392484350.18130.python-list@python.org> (permalink)

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On Sat, Feb 15, 2014 at 9:29 AM, Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> wrote:
> Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info>:
>> On Sat, 15 Feb 2014 14:07:35 +0200, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
>>> Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info>:
>>>> On Sat, 15 Feb 2014 12:13:54 +0200, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
>>>>>    5. id(x) == id(y) iff x is y
>>>>
>>>> # Counter-example
>>>> py> x = 230000
>>>> py> idx = id(x)
>>>> py> del x
>>>> py> y = 420000
>>>> py> idy = id(y)
>>>> py> idx == idy
>>>> True
>>>
>>> I don't accept that as a counterexample.
>
>> Why?
>
> Nowhere do I see the violating "x is y".

You formulated your rule as a rule of inference.  The logical
inference from the above is that x is y, which is false even if it
can't be directly tested in Python.

>> All I need to do is show a case where two distinct objects have the
>> same ID.
>
> How do you know objects are "distinct"? Myself, I would use the "is"
> test.

Eliding over details of how one knows that both of the literals above
create objects, if the objects are separately created, then they are
distinct objects.

>>> That's the point. I don't think id() and "is" have any abstract
>>> meaning on top of the formal axioms.
>>
>> Who is talking about "abstract meaning"?
>
> I am. I mean, "implementation-independent".
>
>> Object identity is simple and well-defined in Python. I don't know why
>> you are so resistant to this. Read the documentation.
>
> It is not defined at all:
>
>    Every object has an identity, a type and a value. An object's
>    identity never changes once it has been created; you may think of it
>    as the object's address in memory. The 'is' operator compares the
>    identity of two objects; the id() function returns an integer
>    representing its identity.
>
> Thus "x and y are identical" *means* "x is y" and nothing else.

This notion of identity sounds useless, and if that is the way you
prefer to understand it then you can safely ignore that it exists.  I
think that most users though inherently understand the concept of
objects being distinct or identical and see the value in being able to
test for this.

Thread

Explanation of list reference dave em <daveandem2000@gmail.com> - 2014-02-14 10:08 -0800
  Re: Explanation of list reference Jussi Piitulainen <jpiitula@ling.helsinki.fi> - 2014-02-14 20:26 +0200
    Re: Explanation of list reference dave em <daveandem2000@gmail.com> - 2014-02-14 10:54 -0800
      Re: Explanation of list reference Denis McMahon <denismfmcmahon@gmail.com> - 2014-02-14 19:20 +0000
      Re: Explanation of list reference Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-02-14 21:56 +0200
        Re: Explanation of list reference Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2014-02-14 13:17 -0700
          Re: Explanation of list reference Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-02-14 22:58 +0200
            Re: Explanation of list reference Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-02-15 08:16 +1100
              Re: Explanation of list reference Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-02-14 23:43 +0200
                Re: Explanation of list reference Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2014-02-14 19:00 -0500
                Re: Explanation of list reference dave em <daveandem2000@gmail.com> - 2014-02-14 16:26 -0800
                Re: Explanation of list reference Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-02-15 06:07 +0000
                Re: Explanation of list reference Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-02-15 11:00 +0200
                Re: Explanation of list reference Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-02-15 11:57 +1100
                Re: Explanation of list reference Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-02-14 17:55 -0800
                Re: Explanation of list reference Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-02-15 13:08 +1100
                Re: Explanation of list reference Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-02-14 18:34 -0800
                Re: Explanation of list reference Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-02-15 13:42 +1100
                Re: Explanation of list reference Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-02-14 19:14 -0800
                Re: Explanation of list reference Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-02-15 14:33 +1100
                Re: Explanation of list reference Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-02-14 20:24 -0800
                Re: Explanation of list reference Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-02-15 15:37 +1100
                Re: Explanation of list reference Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-02-15 06:54 +0000
                Re: Explanation of list reference Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-02-15 18:19 +1100
                Re: Explanation of list reference Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2014-02-14 22:20 -0700
                Re: Explanation of list reference Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-02-15 07:03 +0000
                Re: Explanation of list reference Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-02-15 16:31 +1100
                Re: Explanation of list reference Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-02-14 22:07 -0800
                Re: Explanation of list reference Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-02-15 17:19 +1100
                Re: Explanation of list reference Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-02-14 22:31 -0800
                Re: Explanation of list reference Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-02-15 17:23 +1100
                Re: Explanation of list reference Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2014-02-15 01:08 -0700
                Re: Explanation of list reference Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-02-15 12:42 +0000
                Re: Explanation of list reference Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-02-15 15:44 +0200
                Re: Explanation of list reference Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-02-16 06:00 -0800
                Re: Explanation of list reference Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2014-02-16 11:29 -0500
                Re: Explanation of list reference Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-02-16 08:50 -0800
                Re: Explanation of list reference Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-02-16 20:01 +0200
                Re: Explanation of list reference Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-02-16 18:36 +0000
                Re: Explanation of list reference Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-02-17 05:52 +0000
                Re: Explanation of list reference Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-02-15 15:40 -0500
                Re: Explanation of list reference Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-02-16 02:27 +0000
                Re: Explanation of list reference Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2014-02-15 19:02 +0000
                Re: Explanation of list reference Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-02-15 06:44 +0000
                Re: Explanation of list reference Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-02-15 18:05 +1100
                Re: Explanation of list reference Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2014-02-16 00:29 +1300
                Re: Explanation of list reference Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-02-15 06:15 +0000
                Re: Explanation of list reference Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-02-14 22:24 -0800
                Re: Explanation of list reference Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2014-02-16 00:32 +1300
                Re: Explanation of list reference Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-02-15 22:37 +1100
                Re: Explanation of list reference Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-02-15 11:10 +0200
                Re: Explanation of list reference Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-02-15 10:31 +0000
                Re: Explanation of list reference Christian Gollwitzer <auriocus@gmx.de> - 2014-02-15 10:44 +0100
                Re: Explanation of list reference Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-02-15 12:10 +0200
                Re: Explanation of list reference Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-02-15 10:53 +0000
                Re: Explanation of list reference Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2014-02-17 11:40 +1300
                Re: Explanation of list reference Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-02-17 05:57 +0000
                Re: Explanation of list reference Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-02-15 22:21 +1100
                Re: Explanation of list reference Alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2014-02-16 19:16 +0000
                Re: Explanation of list reference Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-02-15 15:20 +1100
                Re: Explanation of list reference Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-02-15 11:31 +0200
                Re: Explanation of list reference Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-02-15 12:13 +0200
                Re: Explanation of list reference Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-02-15 11:17 +0000
                Re: Explanation of list reference Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-02-15 14:07 +0200
                Re: Explanation of list reference Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-02-15 14:41 +0000
                Re: Explanation of list reference Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-02-15 18:29 +0200
                Re: Explanation of list reference Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-02-15 12:02 -0500
                Re: Explanation of list reference Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-02-15 09:30 -0800
                Re: Explanation of list reference Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2014-02-15 11:37 -0700
                Re: Explanation of list reference Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2014-02-15 11:45 -0700
                Re: Explanation of list reference Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-02-15 19:05 +0000
                Re: Explanation of list reference Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2014-02-15 10:11 -0700
                Re: Explanation of list reference Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-02-15 22:20 +0200
                Re: Explanation of list reference Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2014-02-15 14:20 -0700
                Re: Explanation of list reference Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-02-15 09:47 -0800
                Re: Explanation of list reference Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-02-15 19:17 +0000
                Re: Explanation of list reference Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-02-15 23:01 +0200
                Re: Explanation of list reference Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-02-16 02:25 +0000
                Re: Explanation of list reference Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-02-16 13:18 +0200
                Re: Explanation of list reference Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-02-15 22:31 +1100
                Re: Explanation of list reference Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-02-15 10:40 +0000
                Re: Explanation of list reference Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-02-15 22:17 +1100
            Re: Explanation of list reference Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-02-14 23:20 +0200
            Re: Explanation of list reference Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-02-16 10:08 +0200
              Re: Explanation of list reference Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2014-02-16 01:28 -0700
                Re: Explanation of list reference Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-02-16 12:52 +0200
                Re: Explanation of list reference Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-02-16 22:24 +1100
                Re: Explanation of list reference Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-02-16 12:04 +0000
                Re: Explanation of list reference Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-02-16 18:17 +0200
              Re: Explanation of list reference Jussi Piitulainen <jpiitula@ling.helsinki.fi> - 2014-02-16 10:35 +0200
              Re: Explanation of list reference Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2014-02-16 01:35 -0700
              Re: Explanation of list reference Alan Bawden <alan@scooby-doo.csail.mit.edu> - 2014-02-16 03:38 -0500
              Re: Explanation of list reference Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-02-16 08:40 +0000
                Re: Explanation of list reference Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-02-16 21:18 +1100
              Re: Explanation of list reference Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2014-02-16 12:10 -0500
        Re: Explanation of list reference Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2014-02-14 15:45 -0500
      Re: Explanation of list reference Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2014-02-14 13:12 -0700
      Re: Explanation of list reference Jussi Piitulainen <jpiitula@ling.helsinki.fi> - 2014-02-14 22:36 +0200
        Re: Explanation of list reference Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2014-02-16 01:03 +1300
        Re: Explanation of list reference Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-02-15 23:21 +1100
  Re: Explanation of list reference Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2014-02-14 13:42 -0500
  Re: Explanation of list reference Ryan Gonzalez <rymg19@gmail.com> - 2014-02-14 12:31 -0600
    Re: Explanation of list reference Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-02-15 05:36 +0000
      Re: Explanation of list reference Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-02-15 17:07 +1100
        Re: Explanation of list reference Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-02-15 06:48 +0000
          Re: Explanation of list reference Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-02-15 17:57 +1100
            Re: Explanation of list reference Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2014-02-16 01:18 +1300
              Re: Explanation of list reference Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-02-15 23:24 +1100
                Re: Explanation of list reference Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-02-15 15:25 +0200
                Re: Explanation of list reference Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-02-16 00:59 +1100
                Re: Explanation of list reference Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2014-02-17 11:54 +1300
                Re: Explanation of list reference Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-02-17 10:02 +1100
                Re: Explanation of list reference Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-02-16 18:46 -0500
                Re: Explanation of list reference Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-02-17 12:26 +1100
                Re: Explanation of list reference Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-02-17 10:05 +1100
                Re: Explanation of list reference Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-02-16 18:43 -0500
                Re: Explanation of list reference Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-02-17 11:04 +1100
                Re: Explanation of list reference Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-02-17 06:31 +0000
                Re: Explanation of list reference Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-02-17 05:43 -0800
                Re: Explanation of list reference Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2014-02-16 20:43 -0500
                Re: Explanation of list reference Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-02-17 12:59 +1100
                Re: Explanation of list reference Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-02-16 22:28 -0500
                Re: Explanation of list reference Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-02-17 14:52 +1100
                Re: Explanation of list reference Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-02-16 20:35 -0800
                Re: Explanation of list reference Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-02-17 08:03 +0000
                Re: Explanation of list reference Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-02-17 06:21 +0000
                Re: Explanation of list reference Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-02-17 18:11 +1100
                Re: Explanation of list reference Rotwang <sg552@hotmail.co.uk> - 2014-02-17 18:24 +0000
          Re: Explanation of list reference Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2014-02-15 14:30 -0500
  Re: Explanation of list reference Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-02-14 16:37 -0500
  Re: Explanation of list reference pecore@pascolo.net - 2014-02-14 23:34 +0100
  Re: Explanation of list reference Christian Gollwitzer <auriocus@gmx.de> - 2014-02-15 10:38 +0100
  Re: Explanation of list reference Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-02-16 01:20 +1100
  Re: Explanation of list reference Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-02-16 01:26 +1100
  Re: Explanation of list reference Joshua Landau <joshua@landau.ws> - 2014-02-15 20:44 +0000
  Re: Explanation of list reference Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-02-16 09:27 +1100

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