Groups > comp.lang.python > #20248

Re: Python usage numbers

References	(1 earlier) <4F36E2F5.9000505@gmail.com> <CALFfu7AuYmGURX7=3XgEyHzD+mxtNebF=X-HRjr-LJuodUKpKA@mail.gmail.com> <mailman.5711.1329010113.27778.python-list@python.org> <4f37229b$0$29986$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com> <f610859f-3aa3-4c84-a737-40791a217ef1@m5g2000yqk.googlegroups.com>
Date	2012-02-12 15:38 +1100
Subject	Re: Python usage numbers
From	Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.python
Message-ID	<mailman.5715.1329021524.27778.python-list@python.org> (permalink)

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On Sun, Feb 12, 2012 at 1:36 PM, Rick Johnson
<rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Feb 11, 8:23 pm, Steven D'Aprano <steve
> +comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info> wrote:
>> "I have a file containing text. I can open it in an editor and see it's
>> nearly all ASCII text, except for a few weird and bizarre characters like
>> £ © ± or ö. In Python 2, I can read that file fine. In Python 3 I get an
>> error. What should I do that requires no thought?"
>>
>> Obvious answers:
>
> the most obvious answer would be to read the file WITHOUT worrying
> about asinine encoding.

What this statement misunderstands, though, is that ASCII is itself an
encoding. Files contain bytes, and it's only what's external to those
bytes that gives them meaning. The famous "bush hid the facts" trick
with Windows Notepad shows the folly of trying to use internal
evidence to identify meaning from bytes.

Everything that displays text to a human needs to translate bytes into
glyphs, and the usual way to do this conceptually is to go via
characters. Pretending that it's all the same thing really means
pretending that one byte represents one character and that each
character is depicted by one glyph. And that's doomed to failure,
unless everyone speaks English with no foreign symbols - so, no
mathematical notations.

ChrisA

Thread

Re: Python usage numbers Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-02-12 12:28 +1100
  Re: Python usage numbers Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-02-12 02:23 +0000
    Re: Python usage numbers Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2012-02-11 18:36 -0800
      Re: Python usage numbers Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-02-12 15:38 +1100
        Re: Python usage numbers Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-02-12 05:51 +0000
          Re: Python usage numbers Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-02-12 17:08 +1100
          Re: Python usage numbers Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2012-02-12 10:48 -0500
            Re: Python usage numbers Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2012-02-12 11:47 -0500
              Re: Python usage numbers Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2012-02-12 12:11 -0500
                Re: Python usage numbers Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-02-12 22:49 +0000
          Re: Python usage numbers Dan Sommers <dan@tombstonezero.net> - 2012-02-12 15:55 +0000
          Re: Python usage numbers rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2012-02-12 08:50 -0800
            Re: Python usage numbers Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2012-02-12 12:21 -0500
            Re: Python usage numbers Nick Dokos <nicholas.dokos@hp.com> - 2012-02-12 12:36 -0500
              entering unicode  (was Python usage numbers) rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2012-02-12 19:09 -0800
                Re: entering unicode  (was Python usage numbers) Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-02-19 03:44 +0000
                Re: entering unicode (was Python usage numbers) rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2012-02-19 00:52 -0800
            How do you Unicode proponents type your non-ASCII characters? (was: Python usage numbers) Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2012-02-13 09:43 +1100
            Re: Python usage numbers Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-02-12 22:56 +0000
        Re: Python usage numbers Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2012-02-12 10:13 -0500
          Re: Python usage numbers Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2012-02-12 17:07 -0500
            Re: Python usage numbers Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2012-02-12 17:22 -0500
          Re: Python usage numbers Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-02-13 09:14 +1100
            Re: Python usage numbers Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2012-02-12 17:27 -0500
              Re: Python usage numbers Dave Angel <davea@dejaviewphoto.com> - 2012-02-12 17:40 -0500
              Re: Python usage numbers Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-02-12 23:29 +0000
                Re: Python usage numbers Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2012-02-12 18:41 -0500
                Re: Python usage numbers Dave Angel <d@davea.name> - 2012-02-12 19:03 -0500
                Re: Python usage numbers Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-02-13 11:59 +1100
                Re: Python usage numbers Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2012-02-12 20:11 -0500
          Re: Python usage numbers Christian Heimes <lists@cheimes.de> - 2012-02-13 01:00 +0100
          Re: Python usage numbers Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2012-02-12 21:37 -0500
          Re: Python usage numbers Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2012-02-12 22:09 -0500
            Re: Python usage numbers Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2012-02-12 22:57 -0500
              Re: Python usage numbers Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2012-02-13 15:19 +1100
                Re: Python usage numbers Andrew Berg <bahamutzero8825@gmail.com> - 2012-02-13 12:26 -0600
            Re: Python usage numbers jmfauth <wxjmfauth@gmail.com> - 2012-02-14 00:00 -0800
      Re: Python usage numbers Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-02-12 06:10 +0000
        Re: Python usage numbers Andrew Berg <bahamutzero8825@gmail.com> - 2012-02-12 01:05 -0600
          Re: Python usage numbers Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-02-12 09:12 +0000
            Re: Python usage numbers Andrew Berg <bahamutzero8825@gmail.com> - 2012-02-12 05:11 -0600
              Re: Python usage numbers Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-02-12 22:30 +0000
                Re: Python usage numbers Dave Angel <d@davea.name> - 2012-02-12 17:50 -0500
            Re: Python usage numbers Peter Pearson <ppearson@nowhere.invalid> - 2012-02-12 17:58 +0000
        Re: Python usage numbers Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2012-02-12 20:48 -0800
          Re: Python usage numbers Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-02-13 16:03 +1100
          OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-02-13 08:05 +0000
            Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers] Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2012-02-13 08:01 -0800
              Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-02-13 16:12 +0000
                Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers] Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2012-02-13 08:27 -0800
              Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers] Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2012-02-13 11:38 -0700
                Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers] Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2012-02-13 13:01 -0800
                Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-02-14 08:27 +1100
                Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers] Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-02-13 21:46 +0000
                Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-02-14 00:19 +0000
                Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers] Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2012-02-13 17:07 -0800
                Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers] Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2012-02-13 18:29 -0700
                Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers] Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2012-02-17 17:13 -0800
                Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-02-18 13:13 +1100
                Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers] Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-02-18 02:39 +0000
                Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers] Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2012-02-18 00:28 -0700
                Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers] Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2012-02-18 07:02 -0800
                Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers] Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-02-18 16:15 +0000
                Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers] Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2012-02-18 10:34 -0800
                Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers] random joe <pywin32@gmail.com> - 2012-02-18 10:49 -0800
                Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers] Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-02-26 12:14 +0000
                Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers] Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2012-02-18 04:16 -0500
                Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers] John O'Hagan <research@johnohagan.com> - 2012-02-14 19:41 +1100
                Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers] Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2012-02-14 16:21 -0800
                Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-02-15 11:44 +1100
                Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers] Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2012-02-14 17:26 -0800
                Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers] John O'Hagan <research@johnohagan.com> - 2012-02-15 19:56 +1100
                Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers] Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2012-02-15 07:04 -0800
                Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers] Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-02-15 15:18 +0000
                Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers] Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2012-02-15 08:27 -0800
                Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers] Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-02-15 17:16 +0000
                Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers] Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2012-02-15 09:46 -0700
                Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers] Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-02-26 12:44 +0000
                Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers] Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2012-02-26 12:35 -0800
                Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-02-27 07:50 +1100
                Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers] Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2012-02-26 14:32 -0800
                Re: OT: Entitlements Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2012-02-27 07:46 +1100
              Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-02-14 07:47 +1100
              Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers] Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2012-02-13 14:46 -0700
                Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers] Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2012-02-13 16:39 -0800
                Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers] Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2012-02-13 18:36 -0700
                Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-02-14 12:37 +1100
                Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers] Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2012-02-17 17:37 -0800
              Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers] Tim Wintle <tim.wintle@teamrubber.com> - 2012-02-13 16:41 +0000
                Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers] Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2012-02-14 16:40 -0800
                RE: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers] "Prasad, Ramit" <ramit.prasad@jpmorgan.com> - 2012-02-17 20:09 +0000
              Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers] Duncan Booth <duncan.booth@invalid.invalid> - 2012-02-14 11:31 +0000
                Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers] Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierreda@gmail.com> - 2012-02-14 07:06 -0500
                Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers] Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2012-02-14 16:48 -0800
                Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-02-15 12:32 +1100
                Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers] Duncan Booth <duncan.booth@invalid.invalid> - 2012-02-15 09:47 +0000
                Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers] Arnaud Delobelle <arnodel@gmail.com> - 2012-02-15 09:58 +0000
                Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers] Duncan Booth <duncan.booth@invalid.invalid> - 2012-02-15 10:04 +0000
                Kill files [was Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers]] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-02-15 10:27 +0000
                Re: Kill files [was Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers]] Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2012-02-15 11:29 -0800
              Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers] rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2012-02-14 04:56 -0800
              Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers] Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2012-02-14 09:37 -0500
    Re: Python usage numbers Matej Cepl <mcepl@redhat.com> - 2012-02-12 09:14 +0100
      Re: Python usage numbers Matej Cepl <mcepl@redhat.com> - 2012-02-12 09:26 +0100
        Re: Python usage numbers Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-02-12 12:11 +0000
          Re: Python usage numbers alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2012-02-12 18:55 +0000
            Re: Python usage numbers jmfauth <wxjmfauth@gmail.com> - 2012-02-12 11:52 -0800
              French and IDLE on Windows  (was Re: Python usage numbers) Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2012-02-12 18:30 -0500
        Re: Python usage numbers Anssi Saari <as@sci.fi> - 2012-02-15 11:56 +0200

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