Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp?

From	Random832 <random832@fastmail.com>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.python
Subject	Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp?
Date	2016-06-06 17:13 -0400
Message-ID	<mailman.48.1465247584.2306.python-list@python.org> (permalink)
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On Mon, Jun 6, 2016, at 14:59, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> "Variables as boxes" is a long-standing, well-known metaphor for the C
> and
> Pascal variable model, one where the value is copied into the box
> (metaphorically), or to be more precise, where variables have fixed
> locations and on assignment values are copied to that location.

I don't think that's "to be more precise" at all. I think that is an
entirely different model.

The box metaphor as I understand it involves a lot of boxes, which may
contain arrows (call them pointers, references, or whatever) emerging
from them pointing to other boxes, which are all free-floating with no
implication that any of them are fixed locations or are not dynamically
allocated.

The most classic use of it, after all, is for Lisp, in which two boxes
glued together represent a cons cell, something absolutely nobody would
accuse of having a fixed location. Google "lisp box diagram"  for any
number of examples.

What does a diagram of *your* "variables as boxes" model look like?

> The broader programming community

Between this and the argument about "constructor" terminology, clearly
you and I see "the broader programming community" very differently.

> understands "variables as boxes" to mean fixed size boxes in fixed
> locations with assignment-as-copying, as used by C and Pascal. I don't
> think it is helpful for you to invent your own metaphor of Python-
> style variables being boxes.

> > (if you prefer Marko's analogy, "Some puppies hold leashes in 
> > their mouths").
> 
> I don't know what Marko's analogy is. Puppies with leashes? What?

It was a couple days ago in this thread, in a reply to a post by you.

On Sun, Jun 5, 2016, at 04:01, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
M> You could also think of variables as pegs, references as leashes, and
M> objects as cute puppies. One puppy could be held with multiple
leashes
M> hung on separate pegs. Some puppies hold leashes in their mouths.
Every
M> leash is tied to a puppy or a special wooden post called None.

(I disagreed with him on "None" needing to be a special wooden post for
the analogy to work)

R> > Attributes and list items and dictionary keys and values 
R> > are also boxes.
S> 
S> They're not boxes in the sense of the "variables are boxes" model.

I would say 'yes they are', but clearly *your* "broader programming
community's" version of the ""variables are boxes" model" is different
from everyone else's. I don't think continuing this discussion is likely
to be productive.

Thread

I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Sayth Renshaw <flebber.crue@gmail.com> - 2016-06-03 07:20 -0700
  Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Paul Rudin <paul.nospam@rudin.co.uk> - 2016-06-03 15:34 +0100
    Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Sayth Renshaw <flebber.crue@gmail.com> - 2016-06-03 08:04 -0700
      Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2016-06-03 09:35 -0600
        Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Sayth Renshaw <flebber.crue@gmail.com> - 2016-06-03 08:50 -0700
          Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Michael Selik <michael.selik@gmail.com> - 2016-06-03 16:04 +0000
            Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Sayth Renshaw <flebber.crue@gmail.com> - 2016-06-03 16:06 -0700
              Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-06-04 12:31 +1000
                Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Christopher Reimer <christopher_reimer@icloud.com> - 2016-06-03 19:50 -0700
                Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-06-04 19:12 +1000
      Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Matt Wheeler <m@funkyhat.org> - 2016-06-03 15:54 +0000
        Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <lawrencedo99@gmail.com> - 2016-06-04 20:17 -0700
          Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-06-05 16:37 +1000
            Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-06-05 11:01 +0300
              Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2016-06-05 13:53 -0400
                Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-06-05 22:20 +0300
                Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2016-06-05 17:16 -0400
                Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-06-06 11:13 +0300
                Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2016-06-06 13:08 +1200
                Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <lawrencedo99@gmail.com> - 2016-06-05 18:28 -0700
            Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2016-06-05 13:42 -0400
              Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-06-05 22:38 +0300
              Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-06-06 13:52 +1000
                Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2016-06-06 00:08 -0400
                Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-06-07 01:42 +1000
                Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2016-06-07 17:42 +1200
                Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2016-06-07 20:18 +1000
                Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2016-06-07 14:32 +0200
                Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-06-08 02:03 +1000
                Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2016-06-08 10:08 +0200
                Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2016-06-07 11:33 -0400
                Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2016-06-08 09:53 +0200
                Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2016-06-08 18:47 +1000
                Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2016-06-08 11:41 +0200
                Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-06-08 11:33 +0100
                Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2016-06-08 13:01 +0200
                Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-06-08 13:34 +0100
                Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2016-06-08 16:18 +0200
                Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-06-08 19:37 +0300
                Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <lawrencedo99@gmail.com> - 2016-06-08 19:49 -0700
                Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2016-06-09 09:30 +0200
                Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-06-09 12:19 +0300
                Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2016-06-09 12:19 +0200
                Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-06-09 16:13 +0300
                Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? lists@juliensalort.org (Julien Salort) - 2016-06-09 13:46 +0200
                Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2016-06-09 14:35 +0200
                Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Paul Rudin <paul.nospam@rudin.co.uk> - 2016-06-09 11:00 +0100
                Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-06-09 15:56 +0300
                Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Paul Rudin <paul.nospam@rudin.co.uk> - 2016-06-09 15:09 +0100
                Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-06-09 18:14 +0300
                Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Paul Rudin <paul.nospam@rudin.co.uk> - 2016-06-09 17:22 +0100
                Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Paul Rudin <paul.nospam@rudin.co.uk> - 2016-06-09 17:48 +0100
                Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-06-09 22:35 +0300
                Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Jussi Piitulainen <jussi.piitulainen@helsinki.fi> - 2016-06-10 08:31 +0300
                Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2016-06-09 14:36 -0400
                Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-06-08 18:29 +0100
                Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2016-06-09 09:50 +0200
                Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-06-09 10:10 +0100
                Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2016-06-09 11:55 +0200
                Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-06-09 11:48 +0100
                Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2016-06-09 13:08 +0200
                Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-06-09 13:25 +0100
                Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2016-06-09 14:48 +0200
                Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-06-08 05:36 -0700
                Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2016-06-09 17:36 +1000
                Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2016-06-09 11:46 +0200
                Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-06-09 13:03 +0300
                Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-06-09 11:42 +0100
                Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-06-09 11:53 +0100
                Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Jussi Piitulainen <jussi.piitulainen@helsinki.fi> - 2016-06-09 13:56 +0300
                Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2016-06-09 13:19 +0200
                Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-06-09 13:17 +0100
                Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2016-06-09 14:59 +0200
                Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2016-06-06 18:37 +1200
                Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-06-07 02:19 +1000
                Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2016-06-06 12:57 -0400
                Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-06-07 04:59 +1000
                Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2016-06-06 17:13 -0400
                Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-06-07 00:47 +0300
                Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2016-06-07 19:03 +1200
                Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-06-07 10:56 +0300
                Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Jussi Piitulainen <jussi.piitulainen@helsinki.fi> - 2016-06-07 11:41 +0300
                Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-06-07 11:49 +0100
                Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2016-06-07 11:14 -0400
                Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2016-06-08 17:59 +1200
                Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2016-06-07 18:33 +1200
                Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-06-07 16:55 +1000
                Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-06-06 22:55 +0100
                Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2016-06-07 18:20 +1200
                Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2016-06-06 11:23 +0200
                Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-06-06 13:10 +0300
                Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-06-06 21:57 +1000
            Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-06-06 13:35 +0100
          Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <lawrencedo99@gmail.com> - 2016-06-05 18:25 -0700
  Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Peter Pearson <pkpearson@nowhere.invalid> - 2016-06-03 16:05 +0000
    Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Sayth Renshaw <flebber.crue@gmail.com> - 2016-06-03 16:09 -0700
      Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? cs@zip.com.au - 2016-06-06 08:41 +1000
  Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Nagy László Zsolt <gandalf@shopzeus.com> - 2016-06-03 18:11 +0200
    Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Sayth Renshaw <flebber.crue@gmail.com> - 2016-06-03 16:11 -0700
  Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2016-06-03 22:12 -0400
  Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? jfine2358@gmail.com - 2016-06-06 07:32 -0700

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