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Groups > comp.lang.python > #109762
| From | Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | comp.lang.python |
| Subject | Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? |
| Date | 2016-06-09 22:35 +0300 |
| Organization | A noiseless patient Spider |
| Message-ID | <87bn3a2m1e.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net> (permalink) |
| References | (16 earlier) <87k2hy1y2i.fsf@rudin.co.uk> <878tyeplky.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net> <87eg861mk6.fsf@rudin.co.uk> <87y46eo0n1.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net> <874m921ge5.fsf@rudin.co.uk> |
Paul Rudin <paul.nospam@rudin.co.uk>:
> Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> writes:
>> The spec (<URL: https://docs.python.org/3/reference/datamodel.html>)
>> uses the terms *identity* and *reference*, which are one-to-one.
>
> identity isn't the same thing as a name, identity is an inherent
> property of an object - many names may refer to the same object.
x is y if and only if id(x) == id(y)
However, sorry for muddling the discussion by bringing in the identity.
I'll leave it out for now.
>> So your "names" are *variables*.
>
> Informally yes, but "variable" has no meaning in the language reference.
Really? How do you interpret these, then?
Although the definition of assignment implies that overlaps between
the left-hand side and the right-hand side are ‘simultaneous’ (for
example a, b = b, a swaps two variables), overlaps within the
collection of assigned-to variables occur left-to-right, sometimes
resulting in confusion.
<URL: https://docs.python.org/3/reference/simple_stmts.html?#assignme
nt-statements>
Assignments to __debug__ are illegal. The value for the built-in
variable is determined when the interpreter starts.
<URL: https://docs.python.org/3/reference/simple_stmts.html?#the-asse
rt-statement>
The public names defined by a module are determined by checking the
module’s namespace for a variable named __all__
<URL: https://docs.python.org/3/reference/simple_stmts.html?#the-impo
rt-statement>
It would be impossible to assign to a global variable without global,
although free variables may refer to globals without being declared
global.
<URL: https://docs.python.org/3/reference/simple_stmts.html?#the-glob
al-statement>
>> Unfortunately, virtually every word is overloaded and full of
>> preconceived notions. Hence: "pegs", "leashes", "puppies".
>>
>> The main thing is to keep those three concepts apart from each other.
>> Two notions will not suffice.
>
> Well - adding more things is confusing in IMO - we have a language
> reference, let's just use the terms in the language reference.
I have quoted "the language reference" quite a bit. Your turn.
You would be correct that there is something of an faux elitism going
around that is influencing the language spec as well to a degree. It
appears some people consider "variables," "assignments," "pointers" etc
to be too riff-raff. So people want to say Python is unlike C and has
"names," "bindings," "references" etc.
There's no shame in stating directly that Python has variables just like
C even though Python's variables are not first-class. There's no
difference between binding and assignment. And a reference is a synonym
to a pointer.
Python still has good stuff C doesn't, or even Java.
Marko
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I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Sayth Renshaw <flebber.crue@gmail.com> - 2016-06-03 07:20 -0700
Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Paul Rudin <paul.nospam@rudin.co.uk> - 2016-06-03 15:34 +0100
Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Sayth Renshaw <flebber.crue@gmail.com> - 2016-06-03 08:04 -0700
Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2016-06-03 09:35 -0600
Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Sayth Renshaw <flebber.crue@gmail.com> - 2016-06-03 08:50 -0700
Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Michael Selik <michael.selik@gmail.com> - 2016-06-03 16:04 +0000
Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Sayth Renshaw <flebber.crue@gmail.com> - 2016-06-03 16:06 -0700
Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-06-04 12:31 +1000
Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Christopher Reimer <christopher_reimer@icloud.com> - 2016-06-03 19:50 -0700
Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-06-04 19:12 +1000
Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Matt Wheeler <m@funkyhat.org> - 2016-06-03 15:54 +0000
Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <lawrencedo99@gmail.com> - 2016-06-04 20:17 -0700
Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-06-05 16:37 +1000
Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-06-05 11:01 +0300
Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2016-06-05 13:53 -0400
Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-06-05 22:20 +0300
Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2016-06-05 17:16 -0400
Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-06-06 11:13 +0300
Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2016-06-06 13:08 +1200
Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <lawrencedo99@gmail.com> - 2016-06-05 18:28 -0700
Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2016-06-05 13:42 -0400
Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-06-05 22:38 +0300
Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-06-06 13:52 +1000
Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2016-06-06 00:08 -0400
Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-06-07 01:42 +1000
Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2016-06-07 17:42 +1200
Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2016-06-07 20:18 +1000
Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2016-06-07 14:32 +0200
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Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2016-06-07 11:33 -0400
Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2016-06-08 09:53 +0200
Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2016-06-08 18:47 +1000
Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2016-06-08 11:41 +0200
Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-06-08 11:33 +0100
Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2016-06-08 13:01 +0200
Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-06-08 13:34 +0100
Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2016-06-08 16:18 +0200
Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-06-08 19:37 +0300
Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <lawrencedo99@gmail.com> - 2016-06-08 19:49 -0700
Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2016-06-09 09:30 +0200
Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-06-09 12:19 +0300
Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2016-06-09 12:19 +0200
Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-06-09 16:13 +0300
Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? lists@juliensalort.org (Julien Salort) - 2016-06-09 13:46 +0200
Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2016-06-09 14:35 +0200
Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Paul Rudin <paul.nospam@rudin.co.uk> - 2016-06-09 11:00 +0100
Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-06-09 15:56 +0300
Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Paul Rudin <paul.nospam@rudin.co.uk> - 2016-06-09 15:09 +0100
Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-06-09 18:14 +0300
Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Paul Rudin <paul.nospam@rudin.co.uk> - 2016-06-09 17:22 +0100
Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Paul Rudin <paul.nospam@rudin.co.uk> - 2016-06-09 17:48 +0100
Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-06-09 22:35 +0300
Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Jussi Piitulainen <jussi.piitulainen@helsinki.fi> - 2016-06-10 08:31 +0300
Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2016-06-09 14:36 -0400
Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-06-08 18:29 +0100
Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2016-06-09 09:50 +0200
Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-06-09 10:10 +0100
Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2016-06-09 11:55 +0200
Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-06-09 11:48 +0100
Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2016-06-09 13:08 +0200
Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-06-09 13:25 +0100
Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2016-06-09 14:48 +0200
Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-06-08 05:36 -0700
Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2016-06-09 17:36 +1000
Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2016-06-09 11:46 +0200
Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-06-09 13:03 +0300
Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-06-09 11:42 +0100
Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-06-09 11:53 +0100
Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Jussi Piitulainen <jussi.piitulainen@helsinki.fi> - 2016-06-09 13:56 +0300
Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2016-06-09 13:19 +0200
Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-06-09 13:17 +0100
Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2016-06-09 14:59 +0200
Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2016-06-06 18:37 +1200
Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-06-07 02:19 +1000
Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2016-06-06 12:57 -0400
Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-06-07 04:59 +1000
Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2016-06-06 17:13 -0400
Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-06-07 00:47 +0300
Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2016-06-07 19:03 +1200
Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-06-07 10:56 +0300
Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Jussi Piitulainen <jussi.piitulainen@helsinki.fi> - 2016-06-07 11:41 +0300
Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-06-07 11:49 +0100
Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2016-06-07 11:14 -0400
Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2016-06-08 17:59 +1200
Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2016-06-07 18:33 +1200
Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-06-07 16:55 +1000
Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-06-06 22:55 +0100
Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2016-06-07 18:20 +1200
Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2016-06-06 11:23 +0200
Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-06-06 13:10 +0300
Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-06-06 21:57 +1000
Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-06-06 13:35 +0100
Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Lawrence D’Oliveiro <lawrencedo99@gmail.com> - 2016-06-05 18:25 -0700
Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Peter Pearson <pkpearson@nowhere.invalid> - 2016-06-03 16:05 +0000
Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Sayth Renshaw <flebber.crue@gmail.com> - 2016-06-03 16:09 -0700
Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? cs@zip.com.au - 2016-06-06 08:41 +1000
Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Nagy László Zsolt <gandalf@shopzeus.com> - 2016-06-03 18:11 +0200
Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Sayth Renshaw <flebber.crue@gmail.com> - 2016-06-03 16:11 -0700
Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2016-06-03 22:12 -0400
Re: I'm wrong or Will we fix the ducks limp? jfine2358@gmail.com - 2016-06-06 07:32 -0700
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