Groups | Search | Server Info | Keyboard shortcuts | Login | Register [http] [https] [nntp] [nntps]


Groups > comp.lang.python > #87591

Re: [OT] Weaknesses of distro package managers - was Re: Python 2 to 3 conversion - embrace the pain

Return-Path <torriem+gmail@torriefamily.org>
X-Original-To python-list@python.org
Delivered-To python-list@mail.python.org
X-Spam-Status OK 0.015
X-Spam-Evidence '*H*': 0.97; '*S*': 0.00; 'subject:: [': 0.04; 'subject:Python': 0.06; 'mentioned,': 0.07; 'postgresql': 0.07; 'versions,': 0.07; 'postgres': 0.09; 'thinker': 0.09; 'developer': 0.10; 'random': 0.14; 'agree.': 0.16; 'block.': 0.16; 'from:addr:torriem': 0.16; 'from:name:michael torrie': 0.16; 'stumbling': 0.16; 'subject: \n ': 0.16; 'throw': 0.16; "ubuntu's": 0.16; 'yum,': 0.16; 'index': 0.16; 'wrote:': 0.18; 'library': 0.18; 'app': 0.19; 'trying': 0.19; 'developer,': 0.19; 'else,': 0.19; 'solution.': 0.20; 'subject:] ': 0.20; 'install': 0.23; 'header:User-Agent:1': 0.23; "aren't": 0.24; 'basis,': 0.24; 'certainly': 0.24; 'library,': 0.24; '(or': 0.24; 'header:In- Reply-To:1': 0.27; 'point': 0.28; 'chris': 0.29; 'have,': 0.30; 'newer': 0.30; 'though.': 0.31; 'view.': 0.31; 'yes.': 0.31; 'this.': 0.32; 'says': 0.33; 'framework': 0.33; 'packaging': 0.33; 'core': 0.34; 'subject:the': 0.34; 'problem': 0.35; "can't": 0.35; 'problem.': 0.35; 'something': 0.35; 'but': 0.35; 'add': 0.35; 'version': 0.36; "he's": 0.36; 'installing': 0.36; 'application': 0.37; 'sometimes': 0.38; 'message-id:@gmail.com': 0.38; 'to:addr :python-list': 0.38; 'issue': 0.38; 'pm,': 0.38; 'to:addr:python.org': 0.39; 'system.': 0.39; 'received:org': 0.40; 'how': 0.40; 'even': 0.60; 'solve': 0.60; 'managers': 0.61; 'new': 0.61; 'matter': 0.61; 'course': 0.61; 'simply': 0.61; 'grab': 0.64; 'him,': 0.64; 'talking': 0.65; 'charset:windows-1252': 0.65; 'worth': 0.66; 'managing': 0.66; 'latest': 0.67; 'between': 0.67; 'jobs': 0.68; 'frustrated': 0.68; 'commercial': 0.71; '100%': 0.77; 'crew': 0.84; 'easier,': 0.84; 'everything,': 0.84; 'hardest': 0.91; 'thing,': 0.91
X-Virus-Scanned amavisd-new at torriefamily.org
Date Mon, 16 Mar 2015 20:07:57 -0600
From Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com>
User-Agent Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.5.0
MIME-Version 1.0
To python-list@python.org
Subject Re: [OT] Weaknesses of distro package managers - was Re: Python 2 to 3 conversion - embrace the pain
References <CAPTjJmqr4w_tAxkJ5N5aw=8YBKYOyJLGCMqnEjDDCk3T2LrSgA@mail.gmail.com> <20150316025301.GA94576@cskk.homeip.net> <mailman.409.1426476166.21433.python-list@python.org> <873855tts4.fsf@jester.gateway.sonic.net> <mailman.411.1426484388.21433.python-list@python.org> <55068cb0$0$12923$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com> <8761a1gxhq.fsf@jester.gateway.sonic.net> <CAEfz+TxKBdUrhxUT43Bq5Td=G9Nbu1ANHjF2Ou1tPfih8PNh6w@mail.gmail.com> <550710DD.3030405@gmail.com> <CAPTjJmo41WT1ZbOYjAc8BBhJuY4dtM-Hq_2cFcKZjJSn_5PmVQ@mail.gmail.com> <55078762.6050809@gmail.com> <CAPTjJmptmUkXCH6biVgw8DM+E2HhOsrgB790q=9Em=2mujzUAQ@mail.gmail.com>
In-Reply-To <CAPTjJmptmUkXCH6biVgw8DM+E2HhOsrgB790q=9Em=2mujzUAQ@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type text/plain; charset=windows-1252
Content-Transfer-Encoding 7bit
X-BeenThere python-list@python.org
X-Mailman-Version 2.1.19
Precedence list
List-Id General discussion list for the Python programming language <python-list.python.org>
List-Unsubscribe <https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-list>, <mailto:python-list-request@python.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/>
List-Post <mailto:python-list@python.org>
List-Help <mailto:python-list-request@python.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe <https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list>, <mailto:python-list-request@python.org?subject=subscribe>
Newsgroups comp.lang.python
Message-ID <mailman.468.1426558082.21433.python-list@python.org> (permalink)
Lines 42
NNTP-Posting-Host 2001:888:2000:d::a6
X-Trace 1426558082 news.xs4all.nl 2901 [2001:888:2000:d::a6]:55921
X-Complaints-To abuse@xs4all.nl
Path csiph.com!usenet.pasdenom.info!bete-des-vosges.org!feed.ac-versailles.fr!nerim.net!novso.com!newsfeed.xs4all.nl!newsfeed2a.news.xs4all.nl!xs4all!post.news.xs4all.nl!not-for-mail
Xref csiph.com comp.lang.python:87591

Show key headers only | View raw


On 03/16/2015 07:57 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:
> But the solution isn't necessarily to throw out the packaging system.
> All you need is to expand it. 

Yes.  And of course that's exactly what Poettering is talking about in
his paper.  Despite what many think of him, he's a deep thinker and it's
worth reading what he says about this.

> I don't know how you do it with yum, but
> with apt, you simply add something to /etc/apt/sources.list (or the .d
> directory), grab your index files, and install. That's how I install
> PostgreSQL on Debian Wheezy; the Debian repos ship Postgres 9.1, but
> by simply adding the apt.postgresql.org repo, I can grab 9.4 using the
> exact same system. Ubuntu's PPA system achieves the same thing, as
> mentioned, but even without PPAs, you can still have multiple
> repositories.

PPAs are problematic from a trust point of view.  They aren't a whole
lot better than installing random installers on windows.

> The hardest part is managing library versions, and that's always going
> to be a problem. Sometimes the latest version of an application
> demands a newer version of a library than you have, and if you upgrade
> that library, you might need to upgrade a whole lot else, too, so you
> may as well upgrade everything and call it a new version of the
> distro.

Again this is the core issue that the Poettering crew at RH is working
on.  A cross between images and OS X's framework system.

> The versioning problem is just as much an issue no matter how you try
> to cope with it. Package managers can't magically solve everything,
> but they can make a lot of jobs easier, so on that basis, I say
> they're beneficial. We don't need a 100% solution to be able to make
> use of a 90% solution.

I agree.

Though if I was a developer trying to ship a large package like
LibreOffice, I would be very frustrated though.  Certainly if I was a
commercial app developer, this is a huge stumbling block.

Back to comp.lang.python | Previous | NextPrevious in thread | Next in thread | Find similar | Unroll thread


Thread

Re: Python 2 to 3 conversion - embrace the pain Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-03-16 14:22 +1100
  Re: Python 2 to 3 conversion - embrace the pain Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-03-15 22:07 -0700
    Re: Python 2 to 3 conversion - embrace the pain Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-03-16 16:39 +1100
      Re: Python 2 to 3 conversion - embrace the pain Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-03-15 23:17 -0700
        Re: Python 2 to 3 conversion - embrace the pain Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-03-16 19:00 +1100
          Re: Python 2 to 3 conversion - embrace the pain Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-03-16 01:31 -0700
            Re: Python 2 to 3 conversion - embrace the pain Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-03-17 00:05 +1100
              Re: Python 2 to 3 conversion - embrace the pain Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-03-17 00:29 +1100
            Re: Python 2 to 3 conversion - embrace the pain Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2015-03-16 13:59 -0400
      Re: Python 2 to 3 conversion - embrace the pain Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-03-16 18:56 +1100
        Re: Python 2 to 3 conversion - embrace the pain Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-03-16 01:25 -0700
          Re: Python 2 to 3 conversion - embrace the pain INADA Naoki <songofacandy@gmail.com> - 2015-03-16 18:13 +0900
            Re: Python 2 to 3 conversion - embrace the pain Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-03-16 22:55 +1100
          Re: Python 2 to 3 conversion - embrace the pain Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-03-17 01:25 +1100
            Re: Python 2 to 3 conversion - embrace the pain Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-03-16 15:36 -0700
              Re: Python 2 to 3 conversion - embrace the pain Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2015-03-16 22:28 -0400
                Re: Python 2 to 3 conversion - embrace the pain wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2015-03-17 01:31 -0700
              Re: Python 2 to 3 conversion - embrace the pain Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-03-17 22:26 +1100
                Re: Python 2 to 3 conversion - embrace the pain wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2015-03-17 07:03 -0700
                Re: Python 2 to 3 conversion - embrace the pain Mario Figueiredo <marfig@gmail.com> - 2015-03-17 15:35 +0100
                Re: Python 2 to 3 conversion - embrace the pain Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-03-19 16:23 -0700
                Re: Python 2 to 3 conversion - embrace the pain Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-03-19 22:03 -0400
                Re: Python 2 to 3 conversion - embrace the pain Mario Figueiredo <marfig@gmail.com> - 2015-03-20 03:54 +0100
          Re: Python 2 to 3 conversion - embrace the pain Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2015-03-16 11:20 -0600
            Re: Python 2 to 3 conversion - embrace the pain Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-03-17 07:36 +1100
              Re: Python 2 to 3 conversion - embrace the pain Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2015-03-16 20:14 -0600
              Re: Python 2 to 3 conversion - embrace the pain Cameron Simpson <cs@zip.com.au> - 2015-03-17 17:47 +1100
          Re: Python 2 to 3 conversion - embrace the pain Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2015-03-16 13:47 -0400
          Re: Python 2 to 3 conversion - embrace the pain Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-03-16 18:14 +0000
          Re: Python 2 to 3 conversion - embrace the pain INADA Naoki <songofacandy@gmail.com> - 2015-03-17 04:41 +0900
          Re: Python 2 to 3 conversion - embrace the pain Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-03-17 09:02 +1100
            Re: Python 2 to 3 conversion - embrace the pain Mario Figueiredo <marfig@gmail.com> - 2015-03-17 04:04 +0100
              Re: Python 2 to 3 conversion - embrace the pain Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2015-03-16 21:33 -0600
                Re: Python 2 to 3 conversion - embrace the pain Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-03-17 19:36 +1100
              Re: Python 2 to 3 conversion - embrace the pain Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2015-03-17 14:42 +1100
                Re: Python 2 to 3 conversion - embrace the pain Mario Figueiredo <marfig@gmail.com> - 2015-03-17 05:30 +0100
                Re: Python 2 to 3 conversion - embrace the pain Cameron Simpson <cs@zip.com.au> - 2015-03-18 08:53 +1100
              Re: Python 2 to 3 conversion - embrace the pain Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-03-17 14:49 +1100
                Re: Python 2 to 3 conversion - embrace the pain Mario Figueiredo <marfig@gmail.com> - 2015-03-17 05:26 +0100
                Re: Python 2 to 3 conversion - embrace the pain Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-03-17 04:36 +0000
                Re: Python 2 to 3 conversion - embrace the pain Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2015-03-17 14:50 +0000
                Re: Python 2 to 3 conversion - embrace the pain wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2015-03-17 08:15 -0700
                Re: Python 2 to 3 conversion - embrace the pain Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-03-17 18:36 -0400
                Re: Python 2 to 3 conversion - embrace the pain Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-03-17 22:41 +0000
                Re: Python 2 to 3 conversion - embrace the pain Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-03-18 08:04 -0400
                Re: Python 2 to 3 conversion - embrace the pain Mario Figueiredo <marfig@gmail.com> - 2015-03-18 02:02 +0100
          [OT] Weaknesses of distro package managers - was Re: Python 2 to 3 conversion - embrace the pain Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2015-03-16 19:46 -0600
            Re: [OT] Weaknesses of distro package managers - was Re: Python 2 to 3 conversion - embrace the pain Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-03-17 19:39 +1100
              Re: [OT] Weaknesses of distro package managers - was Re: Python 2 to 3 conversion - embrace the pain Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2015-03-17 09:02 -0600
            Re: [OT] Weaknesses of distro package managers - was Re: Python 2 to 3 conversion - embrace the pain Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2015-03-19 16:37 -0600
              Re: [OT] Weaknesses of distro package managers - was Re: Python 2 to 3 conversion - embrace the pain wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2015-03-20 02:40 -0700
                Re: [OT] Weaknesses of distro package managers - was Re: Python 2 to 3 conversion - embrace the pain Mario Figueiredo <marfig@gmail.com> - 2015-03-20 15:59 +0100
                Re: [OT] Weaknesses of distro package managers - was Re: Python 2 to 3 conversion - embrace the pain Mario Figueiredo <marfig@gmail.com> - 2015-03-20 16:03 +0100
                Re: [OT] Weaknesses of distro package managers - was Re: Python 2 to 3 conversion - embrace the pain Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-03-20 15:42 +0000
                Re: [OT] Weaknesses of distro package managers - was Re: Python 2 to 3 conversion - embrace the pain Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-03-21 04:13 +1100
                Re: [OT] Weaknesses of distro package managers - was Re: Python 2 to 3 conversion - embrace the pain wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2015-03-20 12:21 -0700
          Re: [OT] Weaknesses of distro package managers - was Re: Python 2 to 3 conversion - embrace the pain Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-03-17 12:57 +1100
            Re: [OT] Weaknesses of distro package managers - was Re: Python 2 to 3 conversion - embrace the pain Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-03-16 19:45 -0700
              Re: [OT] Weaknesses of distro package managers - was Re: Python 2 to 3 conversion - embrace the pain Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2015-03-16 21:05 -0600
          Re: [OT] Weaknesses of distro package managers - was Re: Python 2 to 3 conversion - embrace the pain Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2015-03-16 20:07 -0600
          Re: Python 2 to 3 conversion - embrace the pain Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-03-17 02:21 +0000
          Re: [OT] Weaknesses of distro package managers - was Re: Python 2 to 3 conversion - embrace the pain Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2015-03-17 13:40 +1100
            Package manager cooperation? (was Weaknesses of distro package managers) Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-03-16 20:09 -0700
              Re: Package manager cooperation? (was Weaknesses of distro package managers) Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2015-03-16 21:32 -0600
              Re: Package manager cooperation? (was Weaknesses of distro package managers) Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-03-17 04:03 +0000
              Re: Package manager cooperation? (was Weaknesses of distro package managers) Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-03-17 15:18 +1100
                Re: Package manager cooperation? (was Weaknesses of distro package managers) wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2015-03-17 01:44 -0700
          Re: [OT] Weaknesses of distro package managers - was Re: Python 2 to 3 conversion - embrace the pain Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2015-03-16 20:51 -0600
          Re: [OT] Weaknesses of distro package managers - was Re: Python 2 to 3 conversion - embrace the pain Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-03-17 03:01 +0000
          Re: [OT] Weaknesses of distro package managers - was Re: Python 2 to 3 conversion - embrace the pain Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2015-03-16 21:05 -0600
            Re: [OT] Weaknesses of distro package managers - was Re: Python 2 to 3 conversion - embrace the pain Mario Figueiredo <marfig@gmail.com> - 2015-03-17 04:07 +0100
          Re: [OT] Weaknesses of distro package managers - was Re: Python 2 to 3 conversion - embrace the pain Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-03-17 03:17 +0000
          Re: [OT] Weaknesses of distro package managers - was Re: Python 2 to 3 conversion - embrace the pain Alexander <xr.lists@gmail.com> - 2015-03-17 16:44 +1300
        Re: Python 2 to 3 conversion - embrace the pain Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-03-16 19:51 +1100
    Re: Python 2 to 3 conversion - embrace the pain Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2015-03-16 04:53 -0400
      Re: Python 2 to 3 conversion - embrace the pain Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-03-16 02:27 -0700

csiph-web