Re: Python is an Equal Opportunity Programming Language

From	Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.python
Subject	Re: Python is an Equal Opportunity Programming Language
Date	2016-05-07 14:04 +1000
Message-ID	<mailman.443.1462593893.32212.python-list@python.org> (permalink)
References	<ngg56k$t7f$1@ger.gmane.org> <mailman.413.1462474786.32212.python-list@python.org> <d2733a28-f4d9-491b-b04c-2fed46d4bde5@googlegroups.com> <572d620a$0$1617$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com> <CAPTjJmpKG5rTYaOWJP+OyTBq=sruPoQSTu7AA0qmQbYHfdpazQ@mail.gmail.com>

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On Sat, May 7, 2016 at 1:33 PM, Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> wrote:
> On Sat, 7 May 2016 06:35 am, beliavsky@aol.com wrote:
>
>> This not "equal opportunity". It is a quota system.
>
> I must ask, what do you think the phrase "quota system" means?
>
> Who is setting and enforcing this quota, and given that only about 1 in 20
> Python programmers is a woman, do you think men are seriously missing out
> on any opportunities?
>

The problem with quotas isn't "women don't deserve to be heard"
(because they most assuredly do!), but that a restriction can
sometimes force awkwardnesses that weren't there to start with. It's
unlikely to be an issue at PyCon, but the same problem has come up in
other contexts. A great summary comes from the TV show "Yes, Minister"
[1], in which the eponymous Minster wishes to promote a woman, and
aiming for 25% women in senior positions (a quota, exactly on par with
"alternating questions from men and women"). In that case, the
"quota-promoted" woman objected, specifically because she didn't want
to be part of some 25%, she wanted to go somewhere that would respect
her for her accomplishments.

So it's possible to disagree with the quota system without disagreeing
with the goal it's trying to accomplish (or, conversely, without
agreeing with the imbalance that it's trying to address). It's a
sensitive matter that has to be handled carefully.

In the case of PyCon questions, I fully agree with it; there were
enough women present that it wasn't a ridiculous suggestion, and it
encourages people to speak up who might otherwise have kept quiet. But
just because that worked well, it doesn't mean we should automatically
enact quotas everywhere, as some sort of "gender/race/culture
imbalance panacea", because it isn't.

ChrisA

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_Opportunities_(Yes_Minister)

Thread

Python is an Equal Opportunity Programming Language Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2016-05-05 14:59 -0400
  Re: Python is an Equal Opportunity Programming Language beliavsky@aol.com - 2016-05-06 13:35 -0700
    Re: Python is an Equal Opportunity Programming Language Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2016-05-06 14:07 -0700
      Re: Python is an Equal Opportunity Programming Language beliavsky@aol.com - 2016-05-06 14:45 -0700
        Re: Python is an Equal Opportunity Programming Language alex wright <wrightalexw@gmail.com> - 2016-05-06 18:20 -0400
    Re: Python is an Equal Opportunity Programming Language Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-05-07 13:33 +1000
      Re: Python is an Equal Opportunity Programming Language Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-05-07 14:04 +1000
      Re: Python is an Equal Opportunity Programming Language John Wong <gokoproject@gmail.com> - 2016-05-07 00:25 -0400
      Re: Python is an Equal Opportunity Programming Language Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2016-05-07 18:43 +1200
        Re: Python is an Equal Opportunity Programming Language Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-05-07 00:07 -0700
        Re: Python is an Equal Opportunity Programming Language Stephen Hansen <me+python@ixokai.io> - 2016-05-07 01:02 -0700
          Re: Python is an Equal Opportunity Programming Language Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2016-05-07 23:52 +1200
          Re: Python is an Equal Opportunity Programming Language beliavsky@aol.com - 2016-05-08 03:22 -0700
            Re: Python is an Equal Opportunity Programming Language Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-05-09 02:27 +1000
              Re: Python is an Equal Opportunity Programming Language Christopher Reimer <christopher_reimer@icloud.com> - 2016-05-08 10:34 -0700
        Re: Python is an Equal Opportunity Programming Language Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-05-07 11:50 +0300
          Re: Python is an Equal Opportunity Programming Language Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-05-08 01:16 +1000
            Re: Python is an Equal Opportunity Programming Language Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-05-08 01:38 +1000
              Re: Python is an Equal Opportunity Programming Language Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-05-07 18:57 +0300
                Re: Python is an Equal Opportunity Programming Language Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-05-08 22:08 +1000
                Re: Python is an Equal Opportunity Programming Language Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-05-08 08:09 -0700
                Re: Python is an Equal Opportunity Programming Language Christopher Reimer <christopher_reimer@icloud.com> - 2016-05-08 10:25 -0700
                Re: Python is an Equal Opportunity Programming Language Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2016-05-08 12:48 -0500
                Re: Python is an Equal Opportunity Programming Language Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-05-09 08:17 +1000
            Re: Python is an Equal Opportunity Programming Language Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-05-07 18:48 +0300
            Re: Python is an Equal Opportunity Programming Language Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2016-05-07 14:40 -0400
              Re: Python is an Equal Opportunity Programming Language Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-05-08 12:43 +1000
                Re: Python is an Equal Opportunity Programming Language Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-05-08 13:15 +1000
                Re: Python is an Equal Opportunity Programming Language Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-05-08 09:58 +0300
                Re: Python is an Equal Opportunity Programming Language Christopher Reimer <christopher_reimer@icloud.com> - 2016-05-08 10:14 -0700
                Re: Python is an Equal Opportunity Programming Language Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2016-05-07 23:40 -0400
                Re: Python is an Equal Opportunity Programming Language Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-05-08 10:06 +0300
                Re: Python is an Equal Opportunity Programming Language Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2016-05-08 19:07 +1000

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