Groups | Search | Server Info | Keyboard shortcuts | Login | Register [http] [https] [nntp] [nntps]

Groups > comp.lang.python > #104173

Re: Photon mass (was: [Still off-top] Physics)

Path csiph.com!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!not-for-mail
From Larry Martell <larry.martell@gmail.com>
Newsgroups comp.lang.python
Subject Re: Photon mass (was: [Still off-top] Physics)
Date Sun, 6 Mar 2016 09:21:49 -0500
Lines 97
Message-ID <mailman.4.1457296107.2226.python-list@python.org> (permalink)
References <56d16e6a$0$1593$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com> <mailman.226.1457190954.20602.python-list@python.org> <48577729.oWGijJaW9W@PointedEars.de> <201603051236.14854.gheskett@wdtv.com>
Mime-Version 1.0
Content-Type text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding quoted-printable
X-Trace news.uni-berlin.de qxJqqx6+00GI27sceiYjqQTPd5r5Lvy4YVpKRIgbn4Ug==
Return-Path <larry.martell@gmail.com>
X-Original-To python-list@python.org
Delivered-To python-list@mail.python.org
X-Spam-Status UNSURE 0.247
X-Spam-Level **
X-Spam-Evidence '*H*': 0.51; '*S*': 0.00; 'subject:: [': 0.03; 'value,': 0.03; 'difference,': 0.07; 'obsolete': 0.07; 'effect.': 0.09; 'incidental': 0.09; 'output': 0.13; 'pushed': 0.13; '2016': 0.16; 'beam': 0.16; 'day..': 0.16; 'door,': 0.16; 'effect,': 0.16; 'evening,': 0.16; 'foot': 0.16; 'intended,': 0.16; 'offical': 0.16; 'received:io': 0.16; 'received:psf.io': 0.16; 'truely': 0.16; 'wrote:': 0.16; 'obviously': 0.16; 'figures': 0.18; 'of.': 0.18; 'input': 0.18; 'subject:] ': 0.19; 'math': 0.20; 'to:name :python-list@python.org': 0.20; "we'd": 0.21; 'fairly': 0.22; 'meant': 0.22; 'stopping': 0.22; 'bit': 0.23; 'nearly': 0.23; 'sat,': 0.23; 'header:In-Reply-To:1': 0.24; "i've": 0.25; 'connected': 0.27; 'figure': 0.27; 'not.': 0.27; 'message- id:@mail.gmail.com': 0.27; 'cancel': 0.27; 'experiences': 0.27; 'monitored': 0.27; 'moved': 0.27; "skip:' 10": 0.28; 'went': 0.28; 'equally': 0.29; 'measure': 0.29; 'mind,': 0.29; 'reflected': 0.29; 'weak': 0.29; 'typically': 0.29; 'filled': 0.30; 'push': 0.30; 'probably': 0.31; 'largest': 0.31; 'noticed': 0.32; 'says': 0.32; 'possibly': 0.32; 'getting': 0.33; 'problem': 0.33; 'common': 0.33; 'mass': 0.33; 'ram': 0.33; 'previous': 0.34; 'that,': 0.34; 'received:google.com': 0.35; 'behind': 0.35; 'ones': 0.35; 'knowledge': 0.35; 'quite': 0.35; 'something': 0.35; 'level': 0.35; "isn't": 0.35; 'but': 0.36; 'should': 0.36; 'created': 0.36; 'received:209.85': 0.36; 'beginning': 0.36; 'heard': 0.36; 'visual': 0.36; 'to:addr:python-list': 0.36; 'pm,': 0.36; 'subject:: ': 0.37; 'two': 0.37; 'being': 0.37; 'operating': 0.37; 'turn': 0.37; 'received:209.85.213': 0.37; 'things': 0.38; 'doing': 0.38; 'front': 0.38; 'itself': 0.38; 'received:209': 0.38; 'making': 0.62; '(that': 0.63; 'thomas': 0.63; 'wall': 0.63; 'more': 0.63; 'companies': 0.63; 'march': 0.64; 'license': 0.65; 'mar': 0.65; 'attention.': 0.66; 'combining': 0.66; 'fall': 0.66; 'frequency': 0.66; 'renewal': 0.66; 'saturday': 0.66; 'subject:off': 0.66; 'north': 0.67; 'color': 0.67; 'hour': 0.69; 'skip:\xe2 10': 0.70; 'carrier': 0.72; 'electrical': 0.72; 'sound': 0.72; 'power': 0.72; 'dollar': 0.76; 'lack': 0.76; 'hand': 0.82; 'air,': 0.84; 'buzz': 0.84; 'cabinet': 0.84; 'cable': 0.84; 'circuit': 0.84; 'coupled': 0.84; 'dark': 0.84; 'drive.': 0.84; 'effectively,': 0.84; 'encounters': 0.84; 'fcc': 0.84; 'gap': 0.84; 'horrible': 0.84; 'non-zero': 0.84; 'phenomenon': 0.84; 'play,': 0.84; 'sound.': 0.84; 'subjected': 0.84; 'surface': 0.84; 'transit': 0.84; 'tube': 0.84; 'tube,': 0.84; 'bounces,': 0.91; '8bit%:18': 0.93; 'average': 0.93; 'education,': 0.96; 'feet': 0.96; 'traveling': 0.97
DKIM-Signature v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=Q9fJZDIWAh1gBQtVNNV8lqeQG0yOU2PiPM3LnuScZMA=; b=Tf4X9IryEz6dAjMlGDm09ARQoVvuAce0n0qNVIntX05JOd1cjDw/2AZaF5OJcwZPuo wpqkFUbVxTZUNNGeRZFsrKK+giPgMH0HjtD+6DLg4rszXpuLEEWCVPRAcxYsXcQ9J5jg AxMS1wC2D2fOviT25VDgdWFtLPM9y6NVZLuuM4Oi/Oxo3NoGfkUdOJ1l4ELcToEdv3Dj Bx76tSNC5hdvAo/FsYezXoGJlwcx1eYMgOUVK/zjnodp1vrh2bP0EuPqtZYZ+w7mffZY PuSvygHr7ojWRpUeNneo5bdy6qvcX1v0BUOQh/n1ZjEXI5ZUGP7iFlgE1i0FvcKKL0SL yBLg==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Q9fJZDIWAh1gBQtVNNV8lqeQG0yOU2PiPM3LnuScZMA=; b=iNDt1Ly8sHB/QcgLpGedLZgtokdb2E+l9/O87JVXMXPhOTTPtloV0i8isMU0L6MV17 M1R3boio3rFQH2Q8A5ARC4G4B09+1eNY6qCb2WZKkeCrQgVrqlKr5dJoqWfGHqmHaCfs yFB0tx6mKDadyeqP4jAFG0/BBkScQamIbn85fanLZHLNMJI53ag71Kdwlqjk7NCezFmz YifKdzPB85iru9O6zfVcRyXWgFSAc8n+mi7c6AD3mxEyis/Bss4o18ByYxU0oEsf1xth WfYNOFcPIoIAsWk05cVCCACOvj2n4kg+q0vlSLQp0ZUKhRxZ8tVlxFTVUWCeF4u8dQeU RixQ==
X-Gm-Message-State AD7BkJIXrwB3W+r6TudQyShU4QfJupCza436POUPhqp5BAnPxSEGUJ4TrqVDIsWgGI/jjgbA/R714wn/B2YJtA==
X-Received by 10.50.43.161 with SMTP id x1mr7698775igl.47.1457274150335; Sun, 06 Mar 2016 06:22:30 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To <201603051236.14854.gheskett@wdtv.com>
X-Mailman-Approved-At Sun, 06 Mar 2016 15:28:26 -0500
X-BeenThere python-list@python.org
X-Mailman-Version 2.1.21
Precedence list
List-Id General discussion list for the Python programming language <python-list.python.org>
List-Unsubscribe <https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-list>, <mailto:python-list-request@python.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/>
List-Post <mailto:python-list@python.org>
List-Help <mailto:python-list-request@python.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe <https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list>, <mailto:python-list-request@python.org?subject=subscribe>
Xref csiph.com comp.lang.python:104173

Show key headers only | View raw

On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 12:36 PM, Gene Heskett <gheskett@wdtv.com> wrote:
> On Saturday 05 March 2016 10:46:04 Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn wrote:
>
>> Gene Heskett wrote:
>> > I've never heard of a massless photon,
>>
>> That is unfortunate as it should be common knowledge by now.
>>
>> > and they do exert a push on the surface they are reflected from, […]
>>
>> Photons exert a force on surfaces because they carry *momentum* or, as
>> it had been understood in terminology that is obsolete now, a non-zero
>> “*relativistic* mass” (that had been distinguished from “rest mass”).
>>
> To have "momentum" imply's mass in the real, we can measure it world.
>
> However with my lack of education, I have a hard time reconciling that
> they travel at C speed, when the classical math says that anything with
> mass traveling at C speed will have aborbed enough energy in getting to
> C speed, that its mass is then infinite. But its obviously not.
>
> I once used relativity to explain to a degree'd FCC engineer exactly why
> a UHF transmitter that used klystrons for amnplifiers, alway had a
> backgound audio buzz. At the moment this was taking place, the station
> was crippled as we'd had a circuit breaker failure, single phasing and
> stopping the cooling water pump, which in turn destroyed the klystron
> used as a visual amplifier (one circuit breaker boom as the building
> went dark when the tube filled with steam, byby $120,000 USD), so just
> to stay on the air, I had moved a weak & about used up klystron from the
> aural cabinet to the visual cabinet, and tee connected the aural drive
> into the visual drive.
>
> When the engineer came in the door, one of the first things he had
> noticed when he monitored the station from about 15 miles away the
> previous evening, was that we were a UHF, but didn't have that annoying
> background buzz in the sound.  So I had to explain it.
>
> What we were observing was that by combining the two carrier signals into
> one tube, meant that both signals were being treated equally to the
> phenomenon they had called incidental carrier phase modulation, and its
> created in the amplitude modulated signal because the 4 foot long
> electron beam is traveling at a speed where speed vs mass is beginning
> to make itself measureable. Said simply, the tube amplifies the signal
> by nominally 30db, by introducing an electrical field across the input
> cavities gap that alternately speeds up, or slows down, an electron
> traverseing that gap with a 20 kilovolt induced speed. 4 feet and  3
> more cavities later, those electrons are now bunched up, the ones in
> front slowing to fall into the bunch, and the ones behind being pushed
> to catch up with the bunch. That induces, because the beam is something
> north of 5 amps, a considerable amount of power in the last cavity which
> can be coupled back out and sent to the antenna, typically about 30 kw.
>
> However, because this beam of electrons is traveling fast enough for
> relativity to come into play, the energy applied to speed the beam up
> encounters an electron with higher mass as it accelerates, whereas the
> energy applied to slow it encounters an electron with lower mass, so the
> deceleration is fractionally greater.  IOW, its not perfectly
> symetrical, the net effect being that the average speed of the beam is
> instantaneous power level dependent, the tube being effectively,
> physically longer, with a longer transit time as the power level rises.
> This is efffectively a frequency modulation, and an unwanted effect.
>
> Some circuits, once the cause of the phenom was known, were designed to
> predistort this by intruducing an opposing FM and cancel it, but by then
> the heyday of the klysron amplifier was coming to an end because of its
> horrible efficiency, that 30 kw of output came at a cost of a few hairs
> over 100kw in the beam supply, making a UHF transmitter the local power
> companies largest customer by a fairly wide margin. That tramsitter used
> nearly 200 kw for every hour it was on the air, and multi-thousand
> dollar power bills were getting the bean counters attention.
>
> But when both signals, visual and aural, are subjected to the same
> effect, AND the sound detection is based on the FM of the 4.5 megahertz
> difference, it cancels out in the receiver. Later, while still operating
> crippled, I made some aural signal to noise measurements, finding truely
> amazing figures of nearly 80 db with video still applied, where when
> operating with 2 klystrons as intended, it was hard put to make a bit
> over 50 db.  It was such a problem that the FCC allowed us to make those
> measurements with the baseband video cable unplugged when doing a proof
> of performance, required for license renewal every 5 years back in those
> days.
>
> So in that scenario, I have first hand knowledge about relativity despite
> my offical 8th grade education.

Gene, your massive and varied experiences trump my formal education any day.

>Photons not having a mass but can exert
> a push isn't something this 81 yo wet ram can quite figure out.  In my
> mind, when the ball bounces, its mass exerts a push on the wall it was
> bounced off of.  For a photon to do that, requires it have a mass,
> however miniscule it might be, possibly just the mass of the light
> energy its carrying.  Can that be quantified to a known value, probably
> color dependent?

Back to comp.lang.python | Previous | Next — Previous in thread | Next in thread | Find similar | Unroll thread

Thread

[Off-topic] Requests author discusses MentalHealthError exception Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-02-27 20:37 +1100
  Re: [Off-topic] Requests author discusses MentalHealthError exception Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2016-02-27 09:50 +0000
  Re: [Off-topic] Requests author discusses MentalHealthError exception Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2016-02-27 14:06 -0800
  Re: [Off-topic] Requests author discusses MentalHealthError exception Jason Friedman <jsf80238@gmail.com> - 2016-02-27 17:00 -0700
  Re: [Off-topic] Requests author discusses MentalHealthError exception Larry Martell <larry.martell@gmail.com> - 2016-02-29 11:21 -0500
  Re: [Off-topic] Requests author discusses MentalHealthError exception Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2016-02-29 09:47 -0700
  Re: [Off-topic] Requests author discusses MentalHealthError exception Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2016-03-01 03:56 +1100
    Re: [Off-topic] Requests author discusses MentalHealthError exception Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-02-29 09:08 -0800
      Re: [Off-topic] Requests author discusses MentalHealthError exception Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2016-03-01 04:33 +1100
        Re: [Off-topic] Requests author discusses MentalHealthError exception Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-02-29 09:54 -0800
      Re: [Off-topic] Requests author discusses MentalHealthError exception Larry Martell <larry.martell@gmail.com> - 2016-02-29 17:40 -0500
      Re: [Off-topic] Requests author discusses MentalHealthError exception Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2016-02-29 23:29 +0000
      Re: [Off-topic] Requests author discusses MentalHealthError exception Joel Goldstick <joel.goldstick@gmail.com> - 2016-02-29 18:33 -0500
      Re: [Off-topic] Requests author discusses MentalHealthError exception Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-03-02 04:05 +1100
        Re: [Off-topic] Requests author discusses MentalHealthError exception Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-03-02 09:02 -0800
          Re: [Off-topic] Requests author discusses MentalHealthError exception Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-03-03 13:27 +1100
            Re: [Off-topic] Requests author discusses MentalHealthError exception Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-03-03 13:35 +1100
              Re: [Off-topic] Requests author discusses MentalHealthError exception alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2016-03-03 17:21 +0000
                Re: [Off-topic] Requests author discusses MentalHealthError exception Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2016-03-03 11:03 -0700
                Re: [Off-topic] Requests author discusses MentalHealthError exception alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2016-03-03 20:20 +0000
                Re: [Off-topic] Requests author discusses MentalHealthError exception Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2016-03-03 13:33 -0700
                Re: [Off-topic] Requests author discusses MentalHealthError exception William Ray Wing <wrw@mac.com> - 2016-03-03 18:02 -0500
                Re: [Off-topic] Requests author discusses MentalHealthError exception alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2016-03-04 14:05 +0000
                [Still off-top] Physics [was Requests author discusses MentalHealthError exception] Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-03-04 11:04 +1100
                Re: [Still off-top] Physics [was Requests author discusses MentalHealthError exception] Oscar Benjamin <oscar.j.benjamin@gmail.com> - 2016-03-04 10:19 +0000
                Re: [Still off-top] Physics [was Requests author discusses MentalHealthError exception] Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-03-04 12:38 +0200
                Re: [Still off-top] Physics [was Requests author discusses MentalHealthError exception] Dan Sommers <dan@tombstonezero.net> - 2016-03-04 13:10 +0000
                Re: [Still off-top] Physics [was Requests author discusses MentalHealthError exception] Oscar Benjamin <oscar.j.benjamin@gmail.com> - 2016-03-04 17:35 +0000
                Re: [Still off-top] Physics [was Requests author discusses MentalHealthError exception] André Roberge <andre.roberge@gmail.com> - 2016-03-04 11:12 -0800
                Re: [Still off-top] Physics [was Requests author discusses   MentalHealthError exception] Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2016-03-05 15:51 +1300
                Re: [Still off-top] Physics [was Requests author discusses MentalHealthError exception] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-03-05 14:13 +1100
                Re: [Still off-top] Physics [was Requests author discusses MentalHealthError exception] Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-03-05 10:31 +0200
                Re: [Still off-top] Physics [was Requests author discusses MentalHealthError exception] Oscar Benjamin <oscar.j.benjamin@gmail.com> - 2016-03-05 13:11 +0000
                Photon mass (was: [Still off-top] Physics) Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2016-03-05 16:38 +0100
                Re: [Still off-top] Physics [was Requests author discusses MentalHealthError exception] Gene Heskett <gheskett@wdtv.com> - 2016-03-05 10:15 -0500
                Photon mass (was: [Still off-top] Physics) Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2016-03-05 16:46 +0100
                Re: Photon mass (was: [Still off-top] Physics) Gene Heskett <gheskett@wdtv.com> - 2016-03-05 12:36 -0500
                Re: Photon mass (was: [Still off-top] Physics) Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-03-06 12:16 -0500
                Re: Photon mass (was: [Still off-top] Physics) Larry Martell <larry.martell@gmail.com> - 2016-03-06 09:21 -0500
                Re: [Still off-topic] Physics Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-03-06 16:36 +1100
                Re: [Off-topic] Requests author discusses MentalHealthError   exception Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2016-03-04 19:34 +1300
                Re: [Off-topic] Requests author discusses MentalHealthError   exception Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-03-04 08:52 +0200
            Re: [Off-topic] Requests author discusses MentalHealthError exception Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-03-02 19:57 -0800
              Re: [Off-topic] Requests author discusses MentalHealthError exception Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2016-03-02 23:44 -0700
              Re: [Off-topic] Requests author discusses MentalHealthError exception Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-03-04 02:50 +1100
              Re: [Off-topic] Requests author discusses MentalHealthError exception Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2016-03-03 16:21 +0000
      Re: [Off-topic] Requests author discusses MentalHealthError exception Anders Wegge Keller <wegge@wegge.dk> - 2016-03-03 08:23 +0100
    Re: [Off-topic] Requests author discusses MentalHealthError exception Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-02-29 16:35 -0800
      Re: [Off-topic] Requests author discusses MentalHealthError exception Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2016-02-29 16:54 -0800
  Re: [Off-topic] Requests author discusses MentalHealthError exception Larry Martell <larry.martell@gmail.com> - 2016-02-29 17:36 -0500
  Re: [Off-topic] Requests author discusses MentalHealthError exception Larry Martell <larry.martell@gmail.com> - 2016-02-29 17:38 -0500
    Re: [Off-topic] Requests author discusses MentalHealthError exception Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-03-01 23:13 +1100
      Re: [Off-topic] Requests author discusses MentalHealthError exception "Sven R. Kunze" <srkunze@mail.de> - 2016-03-01 17:49 +0100
  Re: [Off-topic] Requests author discusses MentalHealthError exception "Mario R. Osorio" <nimbiotics@gmail.com> - 2016-02-29 20:11 -0800
  Re: Photon mass (was: [Still off-top] Physics) Gene Heskett <gheskett@wdtv.com> - 2016-03-06 16:46 -0500
  Re: Photon mass (was: [Still off-top] Physics) Larry Martell <larry.martell@gmail.com> - 2016-03-06 17:51 -0500

csiph-web