Re: Photon mass (was: [Still off-top] Physics)

From	Gene Heskett <gheskett@wdtv.com>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.python
Subject	Re: Photon mass (was: [Still off-top] Physics)
Date	2016-03-05 12:36 -0500
Message-ID	<mailman.246.1457273783.20602.python-list@python.org> (permalink)
References	<56d16e6a$0$1593$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com> <mailman.226.1457190954.20602.python-list@python.org> <48577729.oWGijJaW9W@PointedEars.de>

Show all headers | View raw

On Saturday 05 March 2016 10:46:04 Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn wrote:

> Gene Heskett wrote:
> > I've never heard of a massless photon,
>
> That is unfortunate as it should be common knowledge by now.
>
> > and they do exert a push on the surface they are reflected from, […]
>
> Photons exert a force on surfaces because they carry *momentum* or, as
> it had been understood in terminology that is obsolete now, a non-zero
> “*relativistic* mass” (that had been distinguished from “rest mass”).
>
To have "momentum" imply's mass in the real, we can measure it world.

However with my lack of education, I have a hard time reconciling that 
they travel at C speed, when the classical math says that anything with 
mass traveling at C speed will have aborbed enough energy in getting to 
C speed, that its mass is then infinite. But its obviously not.

I once used relativity to explain to a degree'd FCC engineer exactly why 
a UHF transmitter that used klystrons for amnplifiers, alway had a 
backgound audio buzz. At the moment this was taking place, the station  
was crippled as we'd had a circuit breaker failure, single phasing and 
stopping the cooling water pump, which in turn destroyed the klystron 
used as a visual amplifier (one circuit breaker boom as the building 
went dark when the tube filled with steam, byby $120,000 USD), so just 
to stay on the air, I had moved a weak & about used up klystron from the 
aural cabinet to the visual cabinet, and tee connected the aural drive 
into the visual drive.

When the engineer came in the door, one of the first things he had 
noticed when he monitored the station from about 15 miles away the 
previous evening, was that we were a UHF, but didn't have that annoying 
background buzz in the sound.  So I had to explain it.

What we were observing was that by combining the two carrier signals into 
one tube, meant that both signals were being treated equally to the  
phenomenon they had called incidental carrier phase modulation, and its 
created in the amplitude modulated signal because the 4 foot long 
electron beam is traveling at a speed where speed vs mass is beginning 
to make itself measureable. Said simply, the tube amplifies the signal 
by nominally 30db, by introducing an electrical field across the input 
cavities gap that alternately speeds up, or slows down, an electron 
traverseing that gap with a 20 kilovolt induced speed. 4 feet and  3 
more cavities later, those electrons are now bunched up, the ones in 
front slowing to fall into the bunch, and the ones behind being pushed 
to catch up with the bunch. That induces, because the beam is something 
north of 5 amps, a considerable amount of power in the last cavity which 
can be coupled back out and sent to the antenna, typically about 30 kw.

However, because this beam of electrons is traveling fast enough for 
relativity to come into play, the energy applied to speed the beam up 
encounters an electron with higher mass as it accelerates, whereas the 
energy applied to slow it encounters an electron with lower mass, so the 
deceleration is fractionally greater.  IOW, its not perfectly 
symetrical, the net effect being that the average speed of the beam is 
instantaneous power level dependent, the tube being effectively, 
physically longer, with a longer transit time as the power level rises.
This is efffectively a frequency modulation, and an unwanted effect.

Some circuits, once the cause of the phenom was known, were designed to 
predistort this by intruducing an opposing FM and cancel it, but by then 
the heyday of the klysron amplifier was coming to an end because of its 
horrible efficiency, that 30 kw of output came at a cost of a few hairs 
over 100kw in the beam supply, making a UHF transmitter the local power 
companies largest customer by a fairly wide margin. That tramsitter used 
nearly 200 kw for every hour it was on the air, and multi-thousand 
dollar power bills were getting the bean counters attention.

But when both signals, visual and aural, are subjected to the same 
effect, AND the sound detection is based on the FM of the 4.5 megahertz 
difference, it cancels out in the receiver. Later, while still operating 
crippled, I made some aural signal to noise measurements, finding truely 
amazing figures of nearly 80 db with video still applied, where when 
operating with 2 klystrons as intended, it was hard put to make a bit 
over 50 db.  It was such a problem that the FCC allowed us to make those 
measurements with the baseband video cable unplugged when doing a proof 
of performance, required for license renewal every 5 years back in those 
days.

So in that scenario, I have first hand knowledge about relativity despite 
my offical 8th grade education. Photons not having a mass but can exert 
a push isn't something this 81 yo wet ram can quite figure out.  In my 
mind, when the ball bounces, its mass exerts a push on the wall it was 
bounced off of.  For a photon to do that, requires it have a mass, 
however miniscule it might be, possibly just the mass of the light 
energy its carrying.  Can that be quantified to a known value, probably 
color dependent?
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass#Mass_in_relativity>
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_in_special_relativity#Relativistic
>_mass>
>
> F'up2 sci.physics.relativity
>
> --
> PointedEars
>
> Twitter: @PointedEars2
> Please do not cc me. / Bitte keine Kopien per E-Mail.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>

Thread

[Off-topic] Requests author discusses MentalHealthError exception Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-02-27 20:37 +1100
  Re: [Off-topic] Requests author discusses MentalHealthError exception Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2016-02-27 09:50 +0000
  Re: [Off-topic] Requests author discusses MentalHealthError exception Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2016-02-27 14:06 -0800
  Re: [Off-topic] Requests author discusses MentalHealthError exception Jason Friedman <jsf80238@gmail.com> - 2016-02-27 17:00 -0700
  Re: [Off-topic] Requests author discusses MentalHealthError exception Larry Martell <larry.martell@gmail.com> - 2016-02-29 11:21 -0500
  Re: [Off-topic] Requests author discusses MentalHealthError exception Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2016-02-29 09:47 -0700
  Re: [Off-topic] Requests author discusses MentalHealthError exception Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2016-03-01 03:56 +1100
    Re: [Off-topic] Requests author discusses MentalHealthError exception Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-02-29 09:08 -0800
      Re: [Off-topic] Requests author discusses MentalHealthError exception Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2016-03-01 04:33 +1100
        Re: [Off-topic] Requests author discusses MentalHealthError exception Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-02-29 09:54 -0800
      Re: [Off-topic] Requests author discusses MentalHealthError exception Larry Martell <larry.martell@gmail.com> - 2016-02-29 17:40 -0500
      Re: [Off-topic] Requests author discusses MentalHealthError exception Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2016-02-29 23:29 +0000
      Re: [Off-topic] Requests author discusses MentalHealthError exception Joel Goldstick <joel.goldstick@gmail.com> - 2016-02-29 18:33 -0500
      Re: [Off-topic] Requests author discusses MentalHealthError exception Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-03-02 04:05 +1100
        Re: [Off-topic] Requests author discusses MentalHealthError exception Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-03-02 09:02 -0800
          Re: [Off-topic] Requests author discusses MentalHealthError exception Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-03-03 13:27 +1100
            Re: [Off-topic] Requests author discusses MentalHealthError exception Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-03-03 13:35 +1100
              Re: [Off-topic] Requests author discusses MentalHealthError exception alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2016-03-03 17:21 +0000
                Re: [Off-topic] Requests author discusses MentalHealthError exception Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2016-03-03 11:03 -0700
                Re: [Off-topic] Requests author discusses MentalHealthError exception alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2016-03-03 20:20 +0000
                Re: [Off-topic] Requests author discusses MentalHealthError exception Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2016-03-03 13:33 -0700
                Re: [Off-topic] Requests author discusses MentalHealthError exception William Ray Wing <wrw@mac.com> - 2016-03-03 18:02 -0500
                Re: [Off-topic] Requests author discusses MentalHealthError exception alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2016-03-04 14:05 +0000
                [Still off-top] Physics [was Requests author discusses MentalHealthError exception] Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-03-04 11:04 +1100
                Re: [Still off-top] Physics [was Requests author discusses MentalHealthError exception] Oscar Benjamin <oscar.j.benjamin@gmail.com> - 2016-03-04 10:19 +0000
                Re: [Still off-top] Physics [was Requests author discusses MentalHealthError exception] Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-03-04 12:38 +0200
                Re: [Still off-top] Physics [was Requests author discusses MentalHealthError exception] Dan Sommers <dan@tombstonezero.net> - 2016-03-04 13:10 +0000
                Re: [Still off-top] Physics [was Requests author discusses MentalHealthError exception] Oscar Benjamin <oscar.j.benjamin@gmail.com> - 2016-03-04 17:35 +0000
                Re: [Still off-top] Physics [was Requests author discusses MentalHealthError exception] André Roberge <andre.roberge@gmail.com> - 2016-03-04 11:12 -0800
                Re: [Still off-top] Physics [was Requests author discusses   MentalHealthError exception] Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2016-03-05 15:51 +1300
                Re: [Still off-top] Physics [was Requests author discusses MentalHealthError exception] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-03-05 14:13 +1100
                Re: [Still off-top] Physics [was Requests author discusses MentalHealthError exception] Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-03-05 10:31 +0200
                Re: [Still off-top] Physics [was Requests author discusses MentalHealthError exception] Oscar Benjamin <oscar.j.benjamin@gmail.com> - 2016-03-05 13:11 +0000
                Photon mass (was: [Still off-top] Physics) Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2016-03-05 16:38 +0100
                Re: [Still off-top] Physics [was Requests author discusses MentalHealthError exception] Gene Heskett <gheskett@wdtv.com> - 2016-03-05 10:15 -0500
                Photon mass (was: [Still off-top] Physics) Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2016-03-05 16:46 +0100
                Re: Photon mass (was: [Still off-top] Physics) Gene Heskett <gheskett@wdtv.com> - 2016-03-05 12:36 -0500
                Re: Photon mass (was: [Still off-top] Physics) Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-03-06 12:16 -0500
                Re: Photon mass (was: [Still off-top] Physics) Larry Martell <larry.martell@gmail.com> - 2016-03-06 09:21 -0500
                Re: [Still off-topic] Physics Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-03-06 16:36 +1100
                Re: [Off-topic] Requests author discusses MentalHealthError   exception Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2016-03-04 19:34 +1300
                Re: [Off-topic] Requests author discusses MentalHealthError   exception Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-03-04 08:52 +0200
            Re: [Off-topic] Requests author discusses MentalHealthError exception Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-03-02 19:57 -0800
              Re: [Off-topic] Requests author discusses MentalHealthError exception Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2016-03-02 23:44 -0700
              Re: [Off-topic] Requests author discusses MentalHealthError exception Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-03-04 02:50 +1100
              Re: [Off-topic] Requests author discusses MentalHealthError exception Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2016-03-03 16:21 +0000
      Re: [Off-topic] Requests author discusses MentalHealthError exception Anders Wegge Keller <wegge@wegge.dk> - 2016-03-03 08:23 +0100
    Re: [Off-topic] Requests author discusses MentalHealthError exception Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-02-29 16:35 -0800
      Re: [Off-topic] Requests author discusses MentalHealthError exception Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2016-02-29 16:54 -0800
  Re: [Off-topic] Requests author discusses MentalHealthError exception Larry Martell <larry.martell@gmail.com> - 2016-02-29 17:36 -0500
  Re: [Off-topic] Requests author discusses MentalHealthError exception Larry Martell <larry.martell@gmail.com> - 2016-02-29 17:38 -0500
    Re: [Off-topic] Requests author discusses MentalHealthError exception Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-03-01 23:13 +1100
      Re: [Off-topic] Requests author discusses MentalHealthError exception "Sven R. Kunze" <srkunze@mail.de> - 2016-03-01 17:49 +0100
  Re: [Off-topic] Requests author discusses MentalHealthError exception "Mario R. Osorio" <nimbiotics@gmail.com> - 2016-02-29 20:11 -0800
  Re: Photon mass (was: [Still off-top] Physics) Gene Heskett <gheskett@wdtv.com> - 2016-03-06 16:46 -0500
  Re: Photon mass (was: [Still off-top] Physics) Larry Martell <larry.martell@gmail.com> - 2016-03-06 17:51 -0500

csiph-web