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Re: Don't feed the troll...

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Op 19-06-13 20:40, Ian Kelly schreef:

> On Wed, Jun 19, 2013 at 4:57 AM, Antoon Pardon
> <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> wrote:
>> I don't remember making such a claim. What I do remember is
>> you among others claiming that the problem was not (so much)
>> the troll (Nikos) but the others.
> Count me among those who feel this way. 
Well You are entitled to your judgement, but so are those who
feel differently. For now I don't see a reason to favor your
judgement over others.


>> And your last conclusion is unsound. You forget to include the
>> fact that once a troll appeared, people reacting badly to the
>> troll is also to be expected. So with regards to this aspect
>> there is no difference between the troll and the responders,
>> both being expected and so no ground to put the preponderance
>> of blame on the responders.
> No, I don't agree with that at all.  Trolls are to be expected because
> there will always be those out in the world who want to have a little
> fun and have no regard for either the list or those who use it.  There
> is nothing to be done about that.  On the other hand, the flamers
> responding to the trolls are regular contributers to the list who
> presumably do care about keeping the list courteous, respectful,
> welcoming and enjoyable to participate in.  Toward that end, I do not
> think it is at all unreasonable to expect posters not to throw those
> principles out the window just because a troll showed up.
There are two problems with your reasoning. The first is that you
are equivocating on "expect". "Expect" can mean you will be surprised
if it doesn't happen but it can also mean you will feel indignant or
disappointed or something similar when it doesn't happen.

Now I won't feel surprise when a troll turns up and I also won't feel
surprise when the troll attracts flamers and it is my guess this is
the meaning you use when you write trolls are to be expected. I doubt
you want to express indignation or disappointment with the prospect
of no trolls showing up. But then you seem to switch meaning when
you talk about the flamers. There it sure looks like you are expressing
indignation at the prospect of community members not upholding the
principles you find important.

The second problem is that I find it a one sided view. If you want
a courteous, respectful, welcoming and enjoyable to participate in
list, shouldn't you also be careful in not encouraging trollish
behaviour? Being courteous to or cooperating with someone behaving
trollishly, is IMO enabling that kind of behaviour and so those
doing so, seem to already throw those priciples out the window because
they are cooperating with the troll who is making this list less
courteous, respectful, welcoming and enjoyable to participate in
for a significant number of people.

There is also the aspect that you can only try to keep something
if you have the feeling it is still present. If contributers 
start feeling this list is no longer the hospitable place it once
was, they feel less inclined to do the effort themselves. If
you'd like people not to throw out certain principles you'd better
make sure they don't feel those principles have already been thrown
out. 


>> Well others don't appreciate you drawing the lines for them
>> either. If you think others have no business drawing the line
>> for what is acceptable on this mailinglist/newsgroup then you
>> have no business drawing such a line yourself.
> Ultimately there is no enforcement on this list, and all of us must
> draw our own lines.  The question then is: will one draw the line
> somewhere that is respectful of the list and promotes positive
> contributions, or somewhere that will push others toward kill-filing
> one and/or giving up on the list altogether?
Indeed, and how is it promoting positive contributions if you answer
trollish contributions about the same way as you do interesting 
contributions? 


> So their ideal solution is to flame him until he goes away, with the
> result being that the threads don't exist to begin with?  If it's
> difficult to filter "valuable contributions" from a thread while
> trying to ignore every other post, think how much harder it will be to
> got those same "valuable contributions" from a thread that doesn't
> exist in the first place. 
Those valuable contributions will then probably turn up in an other
thread. One that isn't a resource hog for all contributors.


>> I don't know it is that clear. I have the impression it can be
>> rather effective in cases where the whole community makes it
>> clear trolls are not welcome. Of course if part of the community
>> is more bothered by those making trolls feel unwelcome than by
>> the trolls themselves, such strive will of course attract them.
> I don't think you understand the troll mindset.  They don't care
> whether the community does or does not welcome them, because they
> don't view themselves as part of the community.  They just want
> affirmation and attention, which is exactly what they get when
> somebody flames them.  They may even find it amusing that somebody can
> get so worked up over their disingenuous posts, which then spurs them
> on to continue trying to get the same reaction.
And why then should it be the flamers that are bothersome here? Isn't
then any response getting the troll affirmation and attention? Why
shouldn't the flamers be bothered by those feeding the troll and making
this list thus a less hospitable place, just because they do it in a
polite and enabling way?

You are ignoring the fact that a lot of motivation behind the current
flaming is what the flamers see as enabling behaviour from other
contributors. If you want the flamers to stop with the behaviour you
find annoying, I think you'd better feel some empathy about what
makes them behave in such a way and make sure you are not contributing.
That will make it more probable for them to take you serious.

-- 
Antoon Pardon

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Thread

Re: Don't feed the troll... "D'Arcy J.M. Cain" <darcy@druid.net> - 2013-06-15 07:58 -0400
  Re: Don't feed the troll... Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-15 15:40 +0000
    Re: Don't feed the troll... Chris “Kwpolska” Warrick <kwpolska@gmail.com> - 2013-06-15 18:41 +0200
      Re: Don't feed the troll... Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-15 17:12 +0000
      Re: Don't feed the troll... Nick the Gr33k <support@superhost.gr> - 2013-06-15 20:30 +0300
        Re: Don't feed the troll... rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-06-15 10:36 -0700
          Re: Don't feed the troll... Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-15 17:52 +0000
            Re: Don't feed the troll... rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-06-15 11:18 -0700
              Re: Don't feed the troll... Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-15 19:29 +0000
                Re: Don't feed the troll... alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2013-06-15 14:47 -0700
                Re: Don't feed the troll... Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-06-15 23:04 +0100
                Re: Don't feed the troll... Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-06-16 20:16 +0200
                Re: Don't feed the troll... Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-16 20:04 +0000
                Re: Don't feed the troll... rurpy@yahoo.com - 2013-06-16 20:46 -0700
                Re: Don't feed the troll... Ferrous Cranus <support@superhost.gr> - 2013-06-17 08:04 +0300
                Re: Don't feed the troll... Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-17 17:23 +1000
                Re: Don't feed the troll... rurpy@yahoo.com - 2013-06-17 07:41 -0700
                Re: Don't feed the troll... Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-18 07:43 +1000
                Re: Don't feed the troll... rurpy@yahoo.com - 2013-06-17 18:03 -0700
                Re: Don't feed the troll... Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-18 11:16 +1000
                Re: Don't feed the troll... Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-06-17 23:22 +0100
                Re: Don't feed the troll... rurpy@yahoo.com - 2013-06-17 18:08 -0700
                Problems with Python documentation [Re: Don't feed the troll...] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-17 22:50 +0000
                Re: Problems with Python documentation [Re: Don't feed the troll...] Joel Goldstick <joel.goldstick@gmail.com> - 2013-06-17 21:11 -0400
                Re: Don't feed the troll... Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-06-17 10:26 +0200
                Re: Don't feed the troll... Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-06-17 10:15 +0200
                Re: Don't feed the troll... rurpy@yahoo.com - 2013-06-17 10:56 -0700
                Re: Don't feed the troll... Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-06-18 10:22 +0200
                Re: Don't feed the troll... Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-06-18 13:42 +0000
                Re: Don't feed the troll... rurpy@yahoo.com - 2013-06-18 20:46 -0700
                Re: Don't feed the troll... Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-06-19 12:57 +0200
                Re: Don't feed the troll... rurpy@yahoo.com - 2013-06-19 14:13 -0700
                Re: Don't feed the troll... Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-06-21 21:32 +0200
                Re: Don't feed the troll... rurpy@yahoo.com - 2013-06-23 07:29 -0700
                Re: Don't feed the troll... Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-06-24 15:37 +0200
                Re: Don't feed the troll... rurpy@yahoo.com - 2013-06-25 08:56 -0700
                Re: Don't feed the troll... Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-06-26 21:46 +0200
                Re: Don't feed the troll... Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-06-26 15:02 -0600
                Re: Don't feed the troll... Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-06-27 20:13 +0200
                Re: Don't feed the troll... Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-06-28 11:20 -0600
                Re: Don't feed the troll... Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-06-30 19:25 +0200
                Re: Don't feed the troll... rurpy@yahoo.com - 2013-07-01 07:02 -0700
                Re: Don't feed the troll... Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-07-01 21:38 +0200
                Re: Don't feed the troll... rurpy@yahoo.com - 2013-07-02 16:41 -0700
                Re: Don't feed the troll... Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-07-02 00:09 +1000
                Re: Don't feed the troll... Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-06-30 11:50 -0600
                Re: Don't feed the troll... Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-06-30 19:56 +0200
                Re: Don't feed the troll... Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-06-25 11:25 -0600
                Re: Don't feed the troll... Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-06-26 20:18 +0200
                Re: Don't feed the troll... Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-06-19 12:40 -0600
                Re: Don't feed the troll... Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-20 00:47 +0000
                Re: Don't feed the troll... Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2013-06-19 19:45 -0400
                Re: Don't feed the troll... Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-06-20 11:41 +0200
                Re: Don't feed the troll... Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-06-20 20:40 -0600
                Re: Don't feed the troll... Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-06-21 11:18 +0200
                Re: Don't feed the troll... Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-06-21 10:19 -0600
                Re: Don't feed the troll... rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-06-21 11:27 -0700
                Re: Don't feed the troll... Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-06-17 09:31 +0200
                Re: Don't feed the troll... Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-17 23:02 +0000
                Re: Don't feed the troll... Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-06-18 11:02 +0200
              Re: Don't feed the troll... rurpy@yahoo.com - 2013-06-15 12:54 -0700
                Re: Don't feed the troll... Nick the Gr33k <support@superhost.gr> - 2013-06-15 23:04 +0300
                Re: Don't feed the troll... rurpy@yahoo.com - 2013-06-15 13:12 -0700
                Re: Don't feed the troll... rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-06-16 22:52 -0700
                Re: Don't feed the troll... Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-06-16 20:39 +0200
                Re: Don't feed the troll... Simpleton <support@superhost.gr> - 2013-06-17 19:03 +0300
                Re: Don't feed the troll... Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-06-17 16:14 +0000
                Re: Don't feed the troll... Simpleton <support@superhost.gr> - 2013-06-17 19:19 +0300
                Re: Don't feed the troll... alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2013-06-17 21:39 -0700
                Re: Don't feed the troll... Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-18 17:21 +1000
                Re: Don't feed the troll... Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-06-18 13:38 +0000
                Re: Don't feed the troll... Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2013-06-18 19:48 -0400
                Re: Don't feed the troll... Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-06-19 03:57 +0000
                Re: Don't feed the troll... rurpy@yahoo.com - 2013-06-18 20:49 -0700
                Re: Don't feed the troll... Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-19 17:07 +1000
                Re: Don't feed the troll... Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-19 07:27 +0000
                Re: Don't feed the troll... Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-19 17:33 +1000
                Re: Don't feed the troll... Joel Goldstick <joel.goldstick@gmail.com> - 2013-06-17 11:53 -0400
        Re: Don't feed the troll... Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2013-06-15 11:49 -0600
        Re: Don't feed the troll... Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-06-15 18:45 +0100
        Re: Don't feed the troll... Andreas Perstinger <andipersti@gmail.com> - 2013-06-15 19:58 +0200
      Re: Don't feed the troll... Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-06-17 14:39 +0000
        Re: Don't feed the troll... "D'Arcy J.M. Cain" <darcy@druid.net> - 2013-06-17 12:35 -0400
        Re: Don't feed the troll... Oscar Benjamin <oscar.j.benjamin@gmail.com> - 2013-06-17 18:42 +0100
          Re: Don't feed the troll... Νίκος <support@superhost.gr> - 2013-06-17 20:52 +0300
        Re: Don't feed the troll... Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2013-06-18 22:21 +1000
    Re: Don't feed the troll... "D'Arcy J.M. Cain" <darcy@druid.net> - 2013-06-15 13:07 -0400
    Mailman forwarding (was: Don't feed the troll...) "W. Trevor King" <wking@tremily.us> - 2013-06-15 13:25 -0400
    Re: Don't feed the troll... Chris “Kwpolska” Warrick <kwpolska@gmail.com> - 2013-06-15 19:25 +0200
      Re: Don't feed the troll... Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-15 17:47 +0000
        Re: Don't feed the troll... Nick the Gr33k <support@superhost.gr> - 2013-06-15 21:59 +0300
        Re: Don't feed the troll... Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-16 09:09 +1000
          Re: Don't feed the troll... Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-16 00:51 +0000
            CC etiquette for mailing lists (was: Don't feed the troll...) "W. Trevor King" <wking@tremily.us> - 2013-06-15 21:29 -0400
    Re: Don't feed the troll... "D'Arcy J.M. Cain" <darcy@druid.net> - 2013-06-15 13:04 -0400

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