Path: csiph.com!v102.xanadu-bbs.net!xanadu-bbs.net!feeder.erje.net!eu.feeder.erje.net!xlned.com!feeder5.xlned.com!newsfeed.xs4all.nl!newsfeed1.news.xs4all.nl!xs4all!newsgate.cistron.nl!newsgate.news.xs4all.nl!post.news.xs4all.nl!not-for-mail Return-Path: X-Original-To: python-list@python.org Delivered-To: python-list@mail.python.org X-Spam-Status: OK 0.012 X-Spam-Evidence: '*H*': 0.98; '*S*': 0.00; 'enabling': 0.05; 'received:134': 0.05; '(so': 0.07; 'encouraging': 0.07; 'responding': 0.07; 'welcome.': 0.07; 'badly': 0.09; 'differently.': 0.09; 'expected.': 0.09; 'happen.': 0.09; 'here?': 0.09; 'indeed,': 0.09; 'lines.': 0.09; 'themselves,': 0.09; 'thrown': 0.09; 'thread': 0.14; 'attention,': 0.16; 'attracts': 0.16; 'behave': 0.16; 'clear.': 0.16; 'feeding': 0.16; 'ignoring': 0.16; 'inclined': 0.16; 'posters': 0.16; 'prospect': 0.16; 'throw': 0.16; 'troll': 0.16; 'with?': 0.16; 'all.': 0.16; 'ignore': 0.16; 'wrote:': 0.18; 'wed,': 0.18; 'trying': 0.19; 'drawing': 0.19; 'community.': 0.22; 'header:User-Agent:1': 0.23; 'aspect': 0.24; 'either.': 0.24; "shouldn't": 0.24; 'looks': 0.24; 'question': 0.24; 'push': 0.26; 'switch': 0.26; 'second': 0.26; 'somewhere': 0.26; 'certain': 0.27; 'header:In-Reply-To:1': 0.27; 'am,': 0.29; 'ideal': 0.29; 'thus': 0.29; "doesn't": 0.30; 'important.': 0.30; 'getting': 0.31; 'lines': 0.31; 'that.': 0.31; 'behaving': 0.31; 'claiming': 0.31; 'end,': 0.31; 'motivation': 0.31; 'view.': 0.31; 'way?': 0.31; 'yourself.': 0.31; 'probably': 0.32; 'themselves': 0.32; 'regular': 0.32; 'up.': 0.33; 'worked': 0.33; 'community': 0.33; 'cases': 0.33; 'guess': 0.33; 'subject:the': 0.34; 'problem': 0.35; 'agree': 0.35; 'something': 0.35; 'no,': 0.35; 'but': 0.35; 'there': 0.35; 'acceptable': 0.36; 'doubt': 0.36; 'impression': 0.36; 'in.': 0.36; 'done': 0.36; 'doing': 0.36; 'similar': 0.36; 'should': 0.36; 'behind': 0.37; 'effort': 0.37; 'positive': 0.37; 'so,': 0.37; 'turn': 0.37; 'two': 0.37; 'list': 0.37; 'clear': 0.37; 'being': 0.38; 'expected': 0.38; 'problems': 0.38; 'filter': 0.38; 'others.': 0.38; 'somebody': 0.38; 'window': 0.38; 'to:addr:python-list': 0.38; 'list,': 0.38; 'fact': 0.38; 'resource': 0.38; 'rather': 0.38; 'little': 0.38; 'expect': 0.39; 'does': 0.39; 'sure': 0.39; 'to:addr:python.org': 0.39; 'either': 0.39; 'how': 0.40; 'even': 0.60; 'ground': 0.60; 'ian': 0.60; 'effective': 0.61; 'course': 0.61; 'first': 0.61; 'making': 0.63; 'kind': 0.63; 'such': 0.63; 'happen': 0.63; 'valuable': 0.63; 'our': 0.64; 'more': 0.64; 'entitled': 0.65; 'world': 0.66; 'between': 0.67; 'bothered': 0.68; 'feeling': 0.68; 'business': 0.70; 'present.': 0.74; 'surprise': 0.74; 'promoting': 0.78; 'claim.': 0.84; 'enforcement': 0.84; 'flame': 0.84; 'much)': 0.84; 'pardon': 0.84; 'presumably': 0.84; 'serious.': 0.84; 'welcoming': 0.84; 'careful': 0.91; 'subject:Don': 0.91; 'hand,': 0.93; '2013': 0.98 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AtsEAM/NwlGGuA9G/2dsb2JhbABagkWKHrZJgRWDFwEBBAFuCgYLCxgJFg8JAwIBAgFFEwYCAhAHh20Gs0OIB41/gUqDYQOXQYYOizaDEQ Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2013 11:41:57 +0200 From: Antoon Pardon User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:10.0.12) Gecko/20130116 Icedove/10.0.12 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: python-list@python.org Subject: Re: Don't feed the troll... References: <7wfvwkcihf.fsf@benfinney.id.au> <7w61xfa9y8.fsf@benfinney.id.au> <51bc8af2$0$29997$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com> <6dc5124d-3b00-4d53-a555-b7f31765abd7@ow4g2000pbc.googlegroups.com> <51bca9eb$0$29997$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com> <35734e52-2396-4ec2-938f-d5b0f592adf5@4g2000pbf.googlegroups.com> <51bcc094$0$29997$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com> <51be1a42$0$29966$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com> <96ed14e3-79dd-40c2-8063-aa58a42c7b57@googlegroups.com> <744948f6-85dd-4de3-a886-8282ca903816@googlegroups.com> <51C18E80.2070107@rece.vub.ac.be> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------060801000704080906030803" X-BeenThere: python-list@python.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion list for the Python programming language List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Newsgroups: comp.lang.python Message-ID: Lines: 286 NNTP-Posting-Host: 2001:888:2000:d::a6 X-Trace: 1371721320 news.xs4all.nl 15943 [2001:888:2000:d::a6]:40999 X-Complaints-To: abuse@xs4all.nl Xref: csiph.com comp.lang.python:48782 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------060801000704080906030803 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Op 19-06-13 20:40, Ian Kelly schreef: > On Wed, Jun 19, 2013 at 4:57 AM, Antoon Pardon > wrote: >> I don't remember making such a claim. What I do remember is >> you among others claiming that the problem was not (so much) >> the troll (Nikos) but the others. > Count me among those who feel this way. Well You are entitled to your judgement, but so are those who feel differently. For now I don't see a reason to favor your judgement over others. >> And your last conclusion is unsound. You forget to include the >> fact that once a troll appeared, people reacting badly to the >> troll is also to be expected. So with regards to this aspect >> there is no difference between the troll and the responders, >> both being expected and so no ground to put the preponderance >> of blame on the responders. > No, I don't agree with that at all. Trolls are to be expected because > there will always be those out in the world who want to have a little > fun and have no regard for either the list or those who use it. There > is nothing to be done about that. On the other hand, the flamers > responding to the trolls are regular contributers to the list who > presumably do care about keeping the list courteous, respectful, > welcoming and enjoyable to participate in. Toward that end, I do not > think it is at all unreasonable to expect posters not to throw those > principles out the window just because a troll showed up. There are two problems with your reasoning. The first is that you are equivocating on "expect". "Expect" can mean you will be surprised if it doesn't happen but it can also mean you will feel indignant or disappointed or something similar when it doesn't happen. Now I won't feel surprise when a troll turns up and I also won't feel surprise when the troll attracts flamers and it is my guess this is the meaning you use when you write trolls are to be expected. I doubt you want to express indignation or disappointment with the prospect of no trolls showing up. But then you seem to switch meaning when you talk about the flamers. There it sure looks like you are expressing indignation at the prospect of community members not upholding the principles you find important. The second problem is that I find it a one sided view. If you want a courteous, respectful, welcoming and enjoyable to participate in list, shouldn't you also be careful in not encouraging trollish behaviour? Being courteous to or cooperating with someone behaving trollishly, is IMO enabling that kind of behaviour and so those doing so, seem to already throw those priciples out the window because they are cooperating with the troll who is making this list less courteous, respectful, welcoming and enjoyable to participate in for a significant number of people. There is also the aspect that you can only try to keep something if you have the feeling it is still present. If contributers start feeling this list is no longer the hospitable place it once was, they feel less inclined to do the effort themselves. If you'd like people not to throw out certain principles you'd better make sure they don't feel those principles have already been thrown out. >> Well others don't appreciate you drawing the lines for them >> either. If you think others have no business drawing the line >> for what is acceptable on this mailinglist/newsgroup then you >> have no business drawing such a line yourself. > Ultimately there is no enforcement on this list, and all of us must > draw our own lines. The question then is: will one draw the line > somewhere that is respectful of the list and promotes positive > contributions, or somewhere that will push others toward kill-filing > one and/or giving up on the list altogether? Indeed, and how is it promoting positive contributions if you answer trollish contributions about the same way as you do interesting contributions? > So their ideal solution is to flame him until he goes away, with the > result being that the threads don't exist to begin with? If it's > difficult to filter "valuable contributions" from a thread while > trying to ignore every other post, think how much harder it will be to > got those same "valuable contributions" from a thread that doesn't > exist in the first place. Those valuable contributions will then probably turn up in an other thread. One that isn't a resource hog for all contributors. >> I don't know it is that clear. I have the impression it can be >> rather effective in cases where the whole community makes it >> clear trolls are not welcome. Of course if part of the community >> is more bothered by those making trolls feel unwelcome than by >> the trolls themselves, such strive will of course attract them. > I don't think you understand the troll mindset. They don't care > whether the community does or does not welcome them, because they > don't view themselves as part of the community. They just want > affirmation and attention, which is exactly what they get when > somebody flames them. They may even find it amusing that somebody can > get so worked up over their disingenuous posts, which then spurs them > on to continue trying to get the same reaction. And why then should it be the flamers that are bothersome here? Isn't then any response getting the troll affirmation and attention? Why shouldn't the flamers be bothered by those feeding the troll and making this list thus a less hospitable place, just because they do it in a polite and enabling way? You are ignoring the fact that a lot of motivation behind the current flaming is what the flamers see as enabling behaviour from other contributors. If you want the flamers to stop with the behaviour you find annoying, I think you'd better feel some empathy about what makes them behave in such a way and make sure you are not contributing. That will make it more probable for them to take you serious. -- Antoon Pardon --------------060801000704080906030803 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 
Op 19-06-13 20:40, Ian Kelly schreef:

On Wed, Jun 19, 2013 at 4:57 AM, Antoon Pardon
<antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> wrote:

I don't remember making such a claim. What I do remember is
you among others claiming that the problem was not (so much)
the troll (Nikos) but the others.

Count me among those who feel this way. 

Well You are entitled to your judgement, but so are those who
feel differently. For now I don't see a reason to favor your
judgement over others.


And your last conclusion is unsound. You forget to include the
fact that once a troll appeared, people reacting badly to the
troll is also to be expected. So with regards to this aspect
there is no difference between the troll and the responders,
both being expected and so no ground to put the preponderance
of blame on the responders.

No, I don't agree with that at all.  Trolls are to be expected because
there will always be those out in the world who want to have a little
fun and have no regard for either the list or those who use it.  There
is nothing to be done about that.  On the other hand, the flamers
responding to the trolls are regular contributers to the list who
presumably do care about keeping the list courteous, respectful,
welcoming and enjoyable to participate in.  Toward that end, I do not
think it is at all unreasonable to expect posters not to throw those
principles out the window just because a troll showed up.

There are two problems with your reasoning. The first is that you
are equivocating on "expect". "Expect" can mean you will be surprised
if it doesn't happen but it can also mean you will feel indignant or
disappointed or something similar when it doesn't happen.

Now I won't feel surprise when a troll turns up and I also won't feel
surprise when the troll attracts flamers and it is my guess this is
the meaning you use when you write trolls are to be expected. I doubt
you want to express indignation or disappointment with the prospect
of no trolls showing up. But then you seem to switch meaning when
you talk about the flamers. There it sure looks like you are expressing
indignation at the prospect of community members not upholding the
principles you find important.

The second problem is that I find it a one sided view. If you want
a courteous, respectful, welcoming and enjoyable to participate in
list, shouldn't you also be careful in not encouraging trollish
behaviour? Being courteous to or cooperating with someone behaving
trollishly, is IMO enabling that kind of behaviour and so those
doing so, seem to already throw those priciples out the window because
they are cooperating with the troll who is making this list less
courteous, respectful, welcoming and enjoyable to participate in
for a significant number of people.

There is also the aspect that you can only try to keep something
if you have the feeling it is still present. If contributers 
start feeling this list is no longer the hospitable place it once
was, they feel less inclined to do the effort themselves. If
you'd like people not to throw out certain principles you'd better
make sure they don't feel those principles have already been thrown
out. 


Well others don't appreciate you drawing the lines for them
either. If you think others have no business drawing the line
for what is acceptable on this mailinglist/newsgroup then you
have no business drawing such a line yourself.

Ultimately there is no enforcement on this list, and all of us must
draw our own lines.  The question then is: will one draw the line
somewhere that is respectful of the list and promotes positive
contributions, or somewhere that will push others toward kill-filing
one and/or giving up on the list altogether?

Indeed, and how is it promoting positive contributions if you answer
trollish contributions about the same way as you do interesting 
contributions? 


So their ideal solution is to flame him until he goes away, with the
result being that the threads don't exist to begin with?  If it's
difficult to filter "valuable contributions" from a thread while
trying to ignore every other post, think how much harder it will be to
got those same "valuable contributions" from a thread that doesn't
exist in the first place. 

Those valuable contributions will then probably turn up in an other
thread. One that isn't a resource hog for all contributors.


I don't know it is that clear. I have the impression it can be
rather effective in cases where the whole community makes it
clear trolls are not welcome. Of course if part of the community
is more bothered by those making trolls feel unwelcome than by
the trolls themselves, such strive will of course attract them.

I don't think you understand the troll mindset.  They don't care
whether the community does or does not welcome them, because they
don't view themselves as part of the community.  They just want
affirmation and attention, which is exactly what they get when
somebody flames them.  They may even find it amusing that somebody can
get so worked up over their disingenuous posts, which then spurs them
on to continue trying to get the same reaction.

And why then should it be the flamers that are bothersome here? Isn't
then any response getting the troll affirmation and attention? Why
shouldn't the flamers be bothered by those feeding the troll and making
this list thus a less hospitable place, just because they do it in a
polite and enabling way?

You are ignoring the fact that a lot of motivation behind the current
flaming is what the flamers see as enabling behaviour from other
contributors. If you want the flamers to stop with the behaviour you
find annoying, I think you'd better feel some empathy about what
makes them behave in such a way and make sure you are not contributing.
That will make it more probable for them to take you serious.

-- 
Antoon Pardon
--------------060801000704080906030803--