Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax

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Date	2011-12-14 00:14 +1100
Subject	Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax
From	Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.python
Message-ID	<mailman.3594.1323782083.27778.python-list@python.org> (permalink)

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On Tue, Dec 13, 2011 at 11:47 PM, Eelco <hoogendoorn.eelco@gmail.com> wrote:
>> def f(*args) *constructs* a tuple, it
>> doesn't perform a type-check.
>
> I am talking about type constraints... A type-check is something
> along the lines of type(args)==list, a runtime thing and something
> completely different. I havnt mentioned the latter at all, explicitly
> or implicitly, as far as im aware.

I'm not sure what you mean by a "type constraint". Here's how I understand such:

float|int foobar; //Declare that the variable 'foobar' is allowed to
hold a float or an int
foobar = 3.2; //Legal.
foobar = 1<<200; //Also legal (a rather large integer value)
foobar = "hello"; //Not legal

Python doesn't have any such thing (at least, not in-built). Any name
may be bound to any value - or if you like, any variable can contain
any type. Same applies to argument passing - you can even take an
unbound method and call it with some completely different type of
object as its first parameter. (I can't think of ANY situation in
which this would not be insanely confusing, tbh.) When you gather a
function's arguments into a tuple, list, or any other such container
object, what you're doing is constructing another object and stuffing
it with references to the original arguments. That involves building a
new object, where otherwise you simply bind the arguments' names to
the original objects directly.

Now, it is perfectly conceivable to have designed Python to _always_
pass tuples around. Instead of a set of arguments, you just always
pass exactly one tuple to a function, and that function figures out
what to do with the args internally. If that's the way the language is
built, then it is the _caller_, not the callee, who builds that tuple;
and we still have the same consideration if we want a list instead.

So suppose you can have a user-defined object type instead of
list/dict. How are you going to write that type's __init__ function?
Somewhere along the way, you need to take a variable number of
arguments and bundle them up into a single one... so somewhere, you
need the interpreter to build it for you. This is going to end up
exactly the same as just accepting the tuple and then passing that to
a constructor, like the list example. Keep things transparent and you
make debugging a LOT easier.

ChrisA

Thread

Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax Eelco Hoogendoorn <hoogendoorn.eelco@gmail.com> - 2011-12-12 00:44 +0100
  Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-12-12 01:11 +0000
    Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-12-12 21:09 +1300
      Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2011-12-12 10:36 -0500
      Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax Nick Dokos <nicholas.dokos@hp.com> - 2011-12-12 10:55 -0500
      Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax Arnaud Delobelle <arnodel@gmail.com> - 2011-12-12 16:15 +0000
      Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-12-13 03:16 +1100
      Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-12-13 03:19 +1100
    Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax Eelco <hoogendoorn.eelco@gmail.com> - 2011-12-12 04:21 -0800
      Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2011-12-12 11:09 -0700
        Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax Eelco <hoogendoorn.eelco@gmail.com> - 2011-12-12 10:17 -0800
          Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2011-12-12 11:35 -0700
            Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax Eelco <hoogendoorn.eelco@gmail.com> - 2011-12-12 10:51 -0800
              Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2011-12-12 17:34 -0700
                Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax Eelco <hoogendoorn.eelco@gmail.com> - 2011-12-13 00:31 -0800
            Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax Eelco <hoogendoorn.eelco@gmail.com> - 2011-12-12 11:05 -0800
              Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax Eelco <hoogendoorn.eelco@gmail.com> - 2011-12-12 11:20 -0800
      Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2011-12-12 15:54 -0800
      Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-12-13 02:43 +0000
        Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-12-13 14:08 +1100
        Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2011-12-12 21:52 -0700
        Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax Eelco <hoogendoorn.eelco@gmail.com> - 2011-12-13 01:15 -0800
          Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax Eelco <hoogendoorn.eelco@gmail.com> - 2011-12-13 01:50 -0800
            Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax Arnaud Delobelle <arnodel@gmail.com> - 2011-12-13 10:15 +0000
              Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax Eelco <hoogendoorn.eelco@gmail.com> - 2011-12-13 02:39 -0800
              Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax Eelco <hoogendoorn.eelco@gmail.com> - 2011-12-13 02:46 -0800
                Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-12-13 11:28 +0000
                Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax Eelco <hoogendoorn.eelco@gmail.com> - 2011-12-13 04:19 -0800
          Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-12-13 11:13 +0000
            Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax Eelco <hoogendoorn.eelco@gmail.com> - 2011-12-13 04:47 -0800
              Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-12-14 00:14 +1100
                Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax Eelco <hoogendoorn.eelco@gmail.com> - 2011-12-13 05:35 -0800
    Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax "OKB (not okblacke)" <brenNOSPAMbarn@NObrenSPAMbarn.net> - 2011-12-12 19:45 +0000
  Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax Jussi Piitulainen <jpiitula@ling.helsinki.fi> - 2011-12-12 12:59 +0200
    Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax Eelco <hoogendoorn.eelco@gmail.com> - 2011-12-12 03:22 -0800
      Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax Jussi Piitulainen <jpiitula@ling.helsinki.fi> - 2011-12-12 13:46 +0200
    Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax Eelco <hoogendoorn.eelco@gmail.com> - 2011-12-12 03:18 -0800
    Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2011-12-12 10:39 -0500
      Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax Jussi Piitulainen <jpiitula@ling.helsinki.fi> - 2011-12-12 18:52 +0200
        Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax Eelco <hoogendoorn.eelco@gmail.com> - 2011-12-12 09:29 -0800
          Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax Jussi Piitulainen <jpiitula@ling.helsinki.fi> - 2011-12-12 20:09 +0200
          % is not an operator [was Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-12-14 03:18 +0000
            Re: % is not an operator [was Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax] Eelco <hoogendoorn.eelco@gmail.com> - 2011-12-13 23:49 -0800
              Re: % is not an operator [was Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax] Arnaud Delobelle <arnodel@gmail.com> - 2011-12-14 11:55 +0000
                Re: % is not an operator [was Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax] Eelco <hoogendoorn.eelco@gmail.com> - 2011-12-14 04:33 -0800
                Re: % is not an operator [was Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax] Arnaud Delobelle <arnodel@gmail.com> - 2011-12-14 16:13 +0000
                Re: % is not an operator [was Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax] Eelco <hoogendoorn.eelco@gmail.com> - 2011-12-14 09:15 -0800
                Re: % is not an operator [was Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax] rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2011-12-14 19:43 -0800
                Re: % is not an operator [was Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax] Eelco <hoogendoorn.eelco@gmail.com> - 2011-12-15 01:44 -0800
                Re: % is not an operator [was Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax] rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2011-12-15 02:56 -0800
                Re: % is not an operator [was Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax] Eelco <hoogendoorn.eelco@gmail.com> - 2011-12-15 03:37 -0800
            Re: % is not an operator [was Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax] Jussi Piitulainen <jpiitula@ling.helsinki.fi> - 2011-12-14 10:56 +0200
              Re: % is not an operator [was Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax] Eelco <hoogendoorn.eelco@gmail.com> - 2011-12-14 02:09 -0800
                Re: % is not an operator [was Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax] Jussi Piitulainen <jpiitula@ling.helsinki.fi> - 2011-12-14 14:22 +0200
                Re: % is not an operator [was Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax] Eelco <hoogendoorn.eelco@gmail.com> - 2011-12-14 04:41 -0800
                Re: % is not an operator [was Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-12-14 12:38 +0000
                Re: % is not an operator [was Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax] Eelco <hoogendoorn.eelco@gmail.com> - 2011-12-14 05:29 -0800
                Re: % is not an operator [was Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-12-15 00:39 +1100
                Re: % is not an operator [was Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax] Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2011-12-14 08:45 -0700
                Re: % is not an operator [was Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax] Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2011-12-14 15:57 -0500
              Re: % is not an operator [was Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax] rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2011-12-14 03:47 -0800
                Re: % is not an operator [was Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-12-14 22:53 +1100
                Re: % is not an operator [was Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax] Jussi Piitulainen <jpiitula@ling.helsinki.fi> - 2011-12-14 15:09 +0200
              Re: % is not an operator [was Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-12-14 12:32 +0000
                Re: % is not an operator [was Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax] Jussi Piitulainen <jpiitula@ling.helsinki.fi> - 2011-12-14 15:21 +0200
                Re: % is not an operator [was Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax] Robert Kern <robert.kern@gmail.com> - 2011-12-15 10:47 +0000
                Re: % is not an operator [was Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax] Eelco <hoogendoorn.eelco@gmail.com> - 2011-12-15 02:59 -0800
                Re: % is not an operator [was Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax] alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2011-12-15 18:14 -0800
                Re: % is not an operator [was Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax] MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2011-12-16 02:58 +0000
                Re: % is not an operator [was Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax] Eelco <hoogendoorn.eelco@gmail.com> - 2011-12-16 02:36 -0800
                Re: % is not an operator [was Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-12-16 16:01 +1100
                Re: % is not an operator [was Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax] alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2011-12-15 21:30 -0800
                Re: % is not an operator [was Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax] Eelco <hoogendoorn.eelco@gmail.com> - 2011-12-16 02:25 -0800
                Re: % is not an operator [was Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax] rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2011-12-16 09:38 -0800
                Re: % is not an operator [was Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax] Eelco <hoogendoorn.eelco@gmail.com> - 2011-12-16 11:40 -0800
                Re: % is not an operator [was Re: Verbose and flexible args and   kwargs syntax] Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-12-17 12:49 +1300
                Re: % is not an operator [was Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax] Eelco <hoogendoorn.eelco@gmail.com> - 2011-12-16 16:00 -0800
                Re: % is not an operator [was Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax] Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2011-12-16 19:03 -0500
                Re: % is not an operator [was Re: Verbose and flexible args and   kwargs syntax] Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-12-17 20:02 +0000
                Re: % is not an operator [was Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-12-17 00:54 +0000
                Re: % is not an operator [was Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax] David Robinow <drobinow@gmail.com> - 2011-12-16 21:11 -0500
                Re: % is not an operator [was Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-12-15 21:58 +1100
                Re: % is not an operator [was Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax] rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2011-12-15 03:04 -0800
                Re: % is not an operator [was Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax] Jussi Piitulainen <jpiitula@ling.helsinki.fi> - 2011-12-15 14:48 +0200
                Re: % is not an operator [was Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax] Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2011-12-15 18:15 -0500
            Re: % is not an operator Paul Rudin <paul.nospam@rudin.co.uk> - 2011-12-14 09:43 +0000
        Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax Nick Dokos <nicholas.dokos@hp.com> - 2011-12-12 12:58 -0500
          Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax Jussi Piitulainen <jpiitula@ling.helsinki.fi> - 2011-12-14 11:04 +0200
  Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax gene heskett <gheskett@wdtv.com> - 2011-12-12 12:46 -0500
  Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax Dave Angel <d@davea.name> - 2011-12-12 13:04 -0500
  Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax Nick Dokos <nicholas.dokos@hp.com> - 2011-12-12 13:02 -0500

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