Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax

From	Nick Dokos <nicholas.dokos@hp.com>
Subject	Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax
References	<mailman.3520.1323647085.27778.python-list@python.org> <qotborenjie.fsf@ruuvi.it.helsinki.fi> <mailman.3549.1323704712.27778.python-list@python.org> <qot8vmhn34u.fsf@ruuvi.it.helsinki.fi>
Organization	HPCS
Date	2011-12-12 12:58 -0500
Newsgroups	comp.lang.python
Message-ID	<mailman.3562.1323713224.27778.python-list@python.org> (permalink)

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Jussi Piitulainen <jpiitula@ling.helsinki.fi> wrote:

> Terry Reedy writes:
> > On 12/12/2011 5:59 AM, Jussi Piitulainen wrote:
> > 
> > > Past experience in mathematics newsgroups tells me
> > > that some mathematicians do not accept the existence of any remainder
> > > operator at all.
> > 
> > Even though they carry hour/minute/second remindering devices on their
> > bodies and put year/month/day remaindering devices on their wall?
> > 'Twould be strange indeed!
> 
> They recognize modular arithmetic but for some reason insist that
> there is no such _binary operation_. But as I said, I don't understand
> their concern. (Except the related concern about some programming
> languages, not Python, where the remainder does not behave well with
> respect to division.)

They are probably arguing that it's uniquely defined only on ZxN and
that there are different conventions to extend it to ZxZ (the programming
languages problem that you allude to above - although I don't know what you
mean by "does not behave well wrt division"). See

	 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remainder

If you choose one convention and stick to it, it becomes a well-defined
binary operation. C99 goes one way, python goes a different way (and
mathematics textbooks generally go a third way) and they are all happy,
as long as they don't try to talk to each other (e.g., porting C99
programs to python unthinkingly leads to trouble - duh). It was
implementation dependent in old C (whatever the hardware would give
you), which predictably - with 20-20 hindsight - turned out to be a Very
Bad Idea.

Nick

PS  Z = integers, N = non-negative integers

Thread

Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax Eelco Hoogendoorn <hoogendoorn.eelco@gmail.com> - 2011-12-12 00:44 +0100
  Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-12-12 01:11 +0000
    Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-12-12 21:09 +1300
      Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2011-12-12 10:36 -0500
      Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax Nick Dokos <nicholas.dokos@hp.com> - 2011-12-12 10:55 -0500
      Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax Arnaud Delobelle <arnodel@gmail.com> - 2011-12-12 16:15 +0000
      Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-12-13 03:16 +1100
      Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-12-13 03:19 +1100
    Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax Eelco <hoogendoorn.eelco@gmail.com> - 2011-12-12 04:21 -0800
      Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2011-12-12 11:09 -0700
        Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax Eelco <hoogendoorn.eelco@gmail.com> - 2011-12-12 10:17 -0800
          Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2011-12-12 11:35 -0700
            Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax Eelco <hoogendoorn.eelco@gmail.com> - 2011-12-12 10:51 -0800
              Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2011-12-12 17:34 -0700
                Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax Eelco <hoogendoorn.eelco@gmail.com> - 2011-12-13 00:31 -0800
            Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax Eelco <hoogendoorn.eelco@gmail.com> - 2011-12-12 11:05 -0800
              Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax Eelco <hoogendoorn.eelco@gmail.com> - 2011-12-12 11:20 -0800
      Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2011-12-12 15:54 -0800
      Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-12-13 02:43 +0000
        Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-12-13 14:08 +1100
        Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2011-12-12 21:52 -0700
        Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax Eelco <hoogendoorn.eelco@gmail.com> - 2011-12-13 01:15 -0800
          Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax Eelco <hoogendoorn.eelco@gmail.com> - 2011-12-13 01:50 -0800
            Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax Arnaud Delobelle <arnodel@gmail.com> - 2011-12-13 10:15 +0000
              Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax Eelco <hoogendoorn.eelco@gmail.com> - 2011-12-13 02:39 -0800
              Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax Eelco <hoogendoorn.eelco@gmail.com> - 2011-12-13 02:46 -0800
                Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-12-13 11:28 +0000
                Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax Eelco <hoogendoorn.eelco@gmail.com> - 2011-12-13 04:19 -0800
          Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-12-13 11:13 +0000
            Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax Eelco <hoogendoorn.eelco@gmail.com> - 2011-12-13 04:47 -0800
              Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-12-14 00:14 +1100
                Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax Eelco <hoogendoorn.eelco@gmail.com> - 2011-12-13 05:35 -0800
    Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax "OKB (not okblacke)" <brenNOSPAMbarn@NObrenSPAMbarn.net> - 2011-12-12 19:45 +0000
  Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax Jussi Piitulainen <jpiitula@ling.helsinki.fi> - 2011-12-12 12:59 +0200
    Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax Eelco <hoogendoorn.eelco@gmail.com> - 2011-12-12 03:22 -0800
      Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax Jussi Piitulainen <jpiitula@ling.helsinki.fi> - 2011-12-12 13:46 +0200
    Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax Eelco <hoogendoorn.eelco@gmail.com> - 2011-12-12 03:18 -0800
    Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2011-12-12 10:39 -0500
      Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax Jussi Piitulainen <jpiitula@ling.helsinki.fi> - 2011-12-12 18:52 +0200
        Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax Eelco <hoogendoorn.eelco@gmail.com> - 2011-12-12 09:29 -0800
          Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax Jussi Piitulainen <jpiitula@ling.helsinki.fi> - 2011-12-12 20:09 +0200
          % is not an operator [was Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-12-14 03:18 +0000
            Re: % is not an operator [was Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax] Eelco <hoogendoorn.eelco@gmail.com> - 2011-12-13 23:49 -0800
              Re: % is not an operator [was Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax] Arnaud Delobelle <arnodel@gmail.com> - 2011-12-14 11:55 +0000
                Re: % is not an operator [was Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax] Eelco <hoogendoorn.eelco@gmail.com> - 2011-12-14 04:33 -0800
                Re: % is not an operator [was Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax] Arnaud Delobelle <arnodel@gmail.com> - 2011-12-14 16:13 +0000
                Re: % is not an operator [was Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax] Eelco <hoogendoorn.eelco@gmail.com> - 2011-12-14 09:15 -0800
                Re: % is not an operator [was Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax] rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2011-12-14 19:43 -0800
                Re: % is not an operator [was Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax] Eelco <hoogendoorn.eelco@gmail.com> - 2011-12-15 01:44 -0800
                Re: % is not an operator [was Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax] rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2011-12-15 02:56 -0800
                Re: % is not an operator [was Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax] Eelco <hoogendoorn.eelco@gmail.com> - 2011-12-15 03:37 -0800
            Re: % is not an operator [was Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax] Jussi Piitulainen <jpiitula@ling.helsinki.fi> - 2011-12-14 10:56 +0200
              Re: % is not an operator [was Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax] Eelco <hoogendoorn.eelco@gmail.com> - 2011-12-14 02:09 -0800
                Re: % is not an operator [was Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax] Jussi Piitulainen <jpiitula@ling.helsinki.fi> - 2011-12-14 14:22 +0200
                Re: % is not an operator [was Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax] Eelco <hoogendoorn.eelco@gmail.com> - 2011-12-14 04:41 -0800
                Re: % is not an operator [was Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-12-14 12:38 +0000
                Re: % is not an operator [was Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax] Eelco <hoogendoorn.eelco@gmail.com> - 2011-12-14 05:29 -0800
                Re: % is not an operator [was Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-12-15 00:39 +1100
                Re: % is not an operator [was Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax] Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2011-12-14 08:45 -0700
                Re: % is not an operator [was Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax] Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2011-12-14 15:57 -0500
              Re: % is not an operator [was Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax] rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2011-12-14 03:47 -0800
                Re: % is not an operator [was Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-12-14 22:53 +1100
                Re: % is not an operator [was Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax] Jussi Piitulainen <jpiitula@ling.helsinki.fi> - 2011-12-14 15:09 +0200
              Re: % is not an operator [was Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-12-14 12:32 +0000
                Re: % is not an operator [was Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax] Jussi Piitulainen <jpiitula@ling.helsinki.fi> - 2011-12-14 15:21 +0200
                Re: % is not an operator [was Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax] Robert Kern <robert.kern@gmail.com> - 2011-12-15 10:47 +0000
                Re: % is not an operator [was Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax] Eelco <hoogendoorn.eelco@gmail.com> - 2011-12-15 02:59 -0800
                Re: % is not an operator [was Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax] alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2011-12-15 18:14 -0800
                Re: % is not an operator [was Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax] MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2011-12-16 02:58 +0000
                Re: % is not an operator [was Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax] Eelco <hoogendoorn.eelco@gmail.com> - 2011-12-16 02:36 -0800
                Re: % is not an operator [was Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-12-16 16:01 +1100
                Re: % is not an operator [was Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax] alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2011-12-15 21:30 -0800
                Re: % is not an operator [was Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax] Eelco <hoogendoorn.eelco@gmail.com> - 2011-12-16 02:25 -0800
                Re: % is not an operator [was Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax] rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2011-12-16 09:38 -0800
                Re: % is not an operator [was Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax] Eelco <hoogendoorn.eelco@gmail.com> - 2011-12-16 11:40 -0800
                Re: % is not an operator [was Re: Verbose and flexible args and   kwargs syntax] Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-12-17 12:49 +1300
                Re: % is not an operator [was Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax] Eelco <hoogendoorn.eelco@gmail.com> - 2011-12-16 16:00 -0800
                Re: % is not an operator [was Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax] Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2011-12-16 19:03 -0500
                Re: % is not an operator [was Re: Verbose and flexible args and   kwargs syntax] Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-12-17 20:02 +0000
                Re: % is not an operator [was Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-12-17 00:54 +0000
                Re: % is not an operator [was Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax] David Robinow <drobinow@gmail.com> - 2011-12-16 21:11 -0500
                Re: % is not an operator [was Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-12-15 21:58 +1100
                Re: % is not an operator [was Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax] rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2011-12-15 03:04 -0800
                Re: % is not an operator [was Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax] Jussi Piitulainen <jpiitula@ling.helsinki.fi> - 2011-12-15 14:48 +0200
                Re: % is not an operator [was Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax] Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2011-12-15 18:15 -0500
            Re: % is not an operator Paul Rudin <paul.nospam@rudin.co.uk> - 2011-12-14 09:43 +0000
        Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax Nick Dokos <nicholas.dokos@hp.com> - 2011-12-12 12:58 -0500
          Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax Jussi Piitulainen <jpiitula@ling.helsinki.fi> - 2011-12-14 11:04 +0200
  Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax gene heskett <gheskett@wdtv.com> - 2011-12-12 12:46 -0500
  Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax Dave Angel <d@davea.name> - 2011-12-12 13:04 -0500
  Re: Verbose and flexible args and kwargs syntax Nick Dokos <nicholas.dokos@hp.com> - 2011-12-12 13:02 -0500

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