Groups | Search | Server Info | Keyboard shortcuts | Login | Register [http] [https] [nntp] [nntps]

Groups > comp.lang.python > #60812

Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly

From Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com>
Subject Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly
Date 2013-11-30 18:07 -0500
References <529934dc$0$29993$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com> <roy-89763C.21084929112013@news.panix.com> <b26b96f2-8415-4e58-8c47-243e4605b184@googlegroups.com> <bfv7lbFppgnU1@mid.individual.net>
Newsgroups comp.lang.python
Message-ID <mailman.3427.1385852868.18130.python-list@python.org> (permalink)

Show all headers | View raw

On 11/30/13 5:37 PM, Gregory Ewing wrote:
> wxjmfauth@gmail.com wrote:
>> And do you know the origin of this typographical feature?
>> Because, mechanically, the dot of the "i" broke too often.
>>
>> In my opinion, a very plausible explanation.
>
> It doesn't sound very plausible to me, because there
> are a lot more stand-alone 'i's in English text than
> there are ones following an f. What is there to stop
> them from breaking?
>
> It's more likely to be simply a kerning issue. You
> want to get the stems of the f and the i close together,
> and the only practical way to do that with mechanical
> type is to merge them into one piece of metal.
>
> Which makes it even sillier to have an 'ffi' character
> in this day and age, when you can simply space the
> characters so that they overlap.
>

The fi ligature was created because visually, an f and i wouldn't work 
well together: the crossbar of the f was near, but not connected to the 
serif of the i, and the terminal bulb of the f was close to, but not 
coincident, with the dot of the i.

This article goes into great detail, and has a good illustration of how 
an f and i can clash, and how an fi ligature can fix the problem: 
http://opentype.info/blog/2012/11/20/whats-a-ligature/ . Note the second 
fi illustration, which demonstrates using a ligature to make the letters 
appear *less* connected than they would individually!

This is also why "simply spacing the characters" isn't a solution: a 
specially designed ligature looks better than a separate f and i, no 
matter how minutely kerned.

It's unfortunate that Unicode includes presentation alternatives like 
the fi (and ff, fl, ffi, and fl) ligatures.  It was done to be a 
superset of existing encodings.

Many typefaces have other non-encoded ligatures as well, especially 
display faces, which also have alternate glyphs.  Unicode is a funny mix 
in that it includes some forms of alternates, but can't include all of 
them, so we have to put up with both an ad-hoc Unicode that includes 
presentational variants, and also some other way to specify variants 
because Unicode can't include all of them.

--Ned.

Back to comp.lang.python | Previous | Next — Previous in thread | Next in thread | Find similar | Unroll thread

Thread

Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-11-30 00:44 +0000
  Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-11-30 01:07 +0000
  Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-11-29 21:08 -0500
    Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-11-30 13:12 +1100
      Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-11-29 21:28 -0500
        Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly Dave Angel <davea@davea.name> - 2013-11-29 22:06 -0500
    Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-11-30 04:21 +0000
      Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-11-29 23:30 -0500
      Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly Zero Piraeus <z@etiol.net> - 2013-11-30 02:05 -0300
        Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-11-30 06:25 +0000
      Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly Gene Heskett <gheskett@wdtv.com> - 2013-11-30 00:25 -0500
      Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-11-30 00:37 -0500
        Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-11-29 23:00 -0700
          Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-11-30 07:11 +0000
        Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-11-30 07:41 +0000
          Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2013-12-01 11:41 +1300
    Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-11-30 08:07 +0000
    Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2013-11-30 11:11 -0800
      Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2013-12-01 11:37 +1300
        Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2013-11-30 18:07 -0500
          Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2013-12-01 08:57 -0800
        Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-12-01 00:22 +0000
          Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2013-11-30 18:52 -0600
            Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-12-01 00:54 +0000
              Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2013-11-30 19:05 -0600
              Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-01 12:13 +1100
                Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-11-30 20:27 -0500
                Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-01 12:31 +1100
  Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly Serhiy Storchaka <storchaka@gmail.com> - 2013-12-01 20:00 +0200
    Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2013-12-01 12:15 -0800
      Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly Tim Delaney <timothy.c.delaney@gmail.com> - 2013-12-02 07:54 +1100
        Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2013-12-02 04:39 -0800
          Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-12-02 14:46 +0000
          Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2013-12-02 10:22 -0500
          Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-12-02 15:45 +0000
          Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-03 02:49 +1100
          Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2013-12-02 10:58 -0500
          Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2013-12-02 15:26 -0500
          Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-12-02 20:45 +0000
          Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2013-12-02 16:44 -0500
          Code of Conduct, Trolls, and Thankless Jobs  [was Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly] Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2013-12-02 13:25 -0800
          Re: Code of Conduct, Trolls, and Thankless Jobs  [was Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly] Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-12-02 22:04 +0000
            Re: Code of Conduct, Trolls, and Thankless Jobs  [was Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly] Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-12-02 20:38 -0500
              Pythonista Goals  [was Re: Code of Conduct, Trolls, and Thankless Jobs] Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2013-12-02 17:56 -0800
              Re: Code of Conduct, Trolls, and Thankless Jobs  [was Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly] Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-12-03 04:32 +0000
                Re: Code of Conduct, Trolls, and Thankless Jobs  [was Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly] Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2013-12-03 05:41 +0000
                Re: Code of Conduct, Trolls, and Thankless Jobs  [was Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly] Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-12-03 12:14 +0000
              Re: Code of Conduct, Trolls, and Thankless Jobs [was Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly] Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-12-03 12:11 +0000
          Re: Code of Conduct, Trolls, and Thankless Jobs  [was Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly] Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2013-12-02 17:23 -0500
          Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2013-12-02 17:24 -0500
          Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-12-02 22:32 +0000
          Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2013-12-02 17:53 -0500
          Re: Code of Conduct, Trolls, and Thankless Jobs Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2013-12-03 10:11 +1100
          Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2013-12-02 14:41 -0800
          Re: Code of Conduct, Trolls, and Thankless Jobs  [was Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly] Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2013-12-02 22:22 -0500
          Re: Code of Conduct, Trolls, and Thankless Jobs Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2013-12-02 22:39 -0500
          Re: Code of Conduct, Trolls, and Thankless Jobs  [was Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly] Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2013-12-02 20:11 -0800
      Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-12-01 22:06 +0000
      Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly Tim Delaney <timothy.c.delaney@gmail.com> - 2013-12-02 09:29 +1100
      Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-12-01 23:10 +0000
      Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2013-12-01 14:50 -0800
      Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-12-02 00:43 +0000
  Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2013-12-02 12:38 -0800
  Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2013-12-02 16:14 -0500
    Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2013-12-03 05:06 +0000
      Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly joe <joeedh@gmail.com> - 2013-12-02 23:35 -0800
      Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2013-12-03 10:34 -0800
  Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-03 08:23 +1100
  Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2013-12-02 21:27 +0000
  Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2013-12-02 13:27 -0800
  Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2013-12-03 09:56 +1100
  Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2013-12-03 13:47 +0000
  Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2013-12-03 06:26 -0800
    Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2013-12-04 05:52 -0800
      Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-12-04 14:07 +0000
      Re: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2013-12-04 14:38 +0000

csiph-web