Groups | Search | Server Info | Keyboard shortcuts | Login | Register [http] [https] [nntp] [nntps]

Groups > comp.lang.python > #32898

Re: Multi-dimensional list initialization

Path csiph.com!newsfeed.hal-mli.net!feeder3.hal-mli.net!newsfeed.hal-mli.net!feeder1.hal-mli.net!newsfeed.xs4all.nl!newsfeed6.news.xs4all.nl!xs4all!newsgate.cistron.nl!newsgate.news.xs4all.nl!post.news.xs4all.nl!not-for-mail
Return-Path <python@mrabarnett.plus.com>
X-Original-To python-list@python.org
Delivered-To python-list@mail.python.org
X-Spam-Status OK 0.001
X-Spam-Evidence '*H*': 1.00; '*S*': 0.00; 'value,': 0.03; 'mrab': 0.05; 'removes': 0.05; 'objects,': 0.07; 'python': 0.09; 'commonly': 0.09; 'imply': 0.09; 'semantics': 0.09; 'passing': 0.15; '"values"': 0.16; 'appends': 0.16; 'behaviour.': 0.16; 'copied,': 0.16; 'does;': 0.16; 'from:addr:mrabarnett.plus.com': 0.16; 'from:addr:python': 0.16; 'from:name:mrab': 0.16; 'message- id:@mrabarnett.plus.com': 0.16; 'received:84.93': 0.16; 'received:84.93.230': 0.16; 'wed,': 0.16; 'wrote:': 0.17; 'variables': 0.17; '>>>': 0.18; 'java': 0.21; 'either.': 0.22; 'subject:skip:i 10': 0.22; 'references': 0.23; 'header:In-Reply- To:1': 0.25; 'header:User-Agent:1': 0.26; 'url:wiki': 0.26; 'functions.': 0.27; 'subject:list': 0.28; "d'aprano": 0.29; 'received:192.168.1.3': 0.29; 'steven': 0.29; 'url:wikipedia': 0.29; 'function': 0.30; 'sense': 0.31; 'received:84': 0.32; 'to:addr:python-list': 0.33; 'another': 0.33; 'list': 0.35; 'nov': 0.35; 'list.': 0.35; 'url:org': 0.36; 'anything': 0.36; 'does': 0.37; 'uses': 0.37; 'passed': 0.37; 'subject:: ': 0.38; 'object': 0.38; 'url:en': 0.38; 'to:addr:python.org': 0.39; 'received:192': 0.39; 'where': 0.40; 'received:192.168': 0.40; 'subject:-': 0.40; 'time,': 0.62; 'world': 0.63; 'talking': 0.66; 'header:Reply- To:1': 0.68; 'reply-to:no real name:2**0': 0.72; 'sharing': 0.74; '(according': 0.84; 'reply-to:addr:python.org': 0.84; 'good,': 0.91
X-CM-Score 0.00
X-CNFS-Analysis v=2.0 cv=Bd1aI8R2 c=1 sm=1 a=0nF1XD0wxitMEM03M9B4ZQ==:17 a=1EKJ2blYo8kA:10 a=RHlel35PpJcA:10 a=ihvODaAuJD4A:10 a=OUOv7kDek9cA:10 a=8nJEP1OIZ-IA:10 a=EBOSESyhAAAA:8 a=8AHkEIZyAAAA:8 a=4905VYxiF58A:10 a=8pif782wAAAA:8 a=EvKb5KckbqyKxaHE-e8A:9 a=wPNLvfGTeEIA:10 a=0nF1XD0wxitMEM03M9B4ZQ==:117
X-AUTH mrabarnett:2500
Date Wed, 07 Nov 2012 17:17:02 +0000
From MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com>
User-Agent Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:16.0) Gecko/20121026 Thunderbird/16.0.2
MIME-Version 1.0
To python-list@python.org
Subject Re: Multi-dimensional list initialization
References <mailman.3267.1352096879.27098.python-list@python.org> <50978323$0$6908$e4fe514c@news2.news.xs4all.nl> <CAHVvXxQR2J2tyFcQZd7bNYTAeetwM+LfoV4UcYrkRfeNVOj+pg@mail.gmail.com> <CAPTjJmqzQi2TEjme_we-KfmG7vxOfRWoKG=zL=SGHYGqiFf9_Q@mail.gmail.com> <CAHVvXxQNCxpACM=tkKir0f3iVqui4oVGnyS-GywO+dtGacKAdQ@mail.gmail.com> <mailman.3311.1352181444.27098.python-list@python.org> <5098d2ac$0$29980$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com> <50999214.50100@r3dsolutions.com> <CALwzidmQgkQUYZDp3Tkbw+5KZ7-frF+g8rfkqcTT3ORj2ZA-pg@mail.gmail.com> <mailman.3349.1352248012.27098.python-list@python.org> <5099ec1d$0$21759$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astraweb.com>
In-Reply-To <5099ec1d$0$21759$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astraweb.com>
Content-Type text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding 7bit
X-BeenThere python-list@python.org
X-Mailman-Version 2.1.15
Precedence list
Reply-To python-list@python.org
List-Id General discussion list for the Python programming language <python-list.python.org>
List-Unsubscribe <http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-list>, <mailto:python-list-request@python.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/>
List-Post <mailto:python-list@python.org>
List-Help <mailto:python-list-request@python.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe <http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list>, <mailto:python-list-request@python.org?subject=subscribe>
Newsgroups comp.lang.python
Message-ID <mailman.3383.1352308622.27098.python-list@python.org> (permalink)
Lines 40
NNTP-Posting-Host 2001:888:2000:d::a6
X-Trace 1352308622 news.xs4all.nl 6925 [2001:888:2000:d::a6]:40494
X-Complaints-To abuse@xs4all.nl
Xref csiph.com comp.lang.python:32898

Show key headers only | View raw

On 2012-11-07 05:05, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> On Wed, 07 Nov 2012 00:23:44 +0000, MRAB wrote:
>
>>> Incorrect.  Python uses what is commonly known as call-by-object, not
>>> call-by-value or call-by-reference.  Passing the list by value would
>>> imply that the list is copied, and that appends or removes to the list
>>> inside the function would not affect the original list.  This is not
>>> what Python does; the list inside the function and the list passed in
>>> are the same list.  At the same time, the function does not have access
>>> to the original reference to the list and cannot reassign it by
>>> reassigning its own reference, so it is not call-by-reference semantics
>>> either.
>>>
>> I prefer the term "reference semantics".
>
>
> Oh good, because what the world needs is yet another name for the same
> behaviour.
>
> - call by sharing
> - call by object sharing
> - call by object reference
> - call by object
> - call by value, where "values" are references
>    (according to the Java community)
> - call by reference, where "references" refer to objects, not variables
>    (according to the Ruby community)
> - reference semantics
>
>
> Anything else?
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evaluation_strategy#Call_by_sharing
>
The disadvantage of calling it "call by ..." is that it suggests that
you're just talking about calling functions.

What about binding in general, eg "x = y"? Does it make sense to still
call it "call by ..."?

Back to comp.lang.python | Previous | Next — Previous in thread | Next in thread | Find similar | Unroll thread

Thread

Multi-dimensional list initialization Demian Brecht <demianbrecht@gmail.com> - 2012-11-04 22:27 -0800
  Re: Multi-dimensional list initialization Hans Mulder <hansmu@xs4all.nl> - 2012-11-05 10:13 +0100
    Re: Multi-dimensional list initialization Oscar Benjamin <oscar.j.benjamin@gmail.com> - 2012-11-06 01:32 +0000
    Re: Multi-dimensional list initialization Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-11-06 13:01 +1100
    Re: Multi-dimensional list initialization Oscar Benjamin <oscar.j.benjamin@gmail.com> - 2012-11-06 02:30 +0000
    Re: Multi-dimensional list initialization Andrew Robinson <andrew3@r3dsolutions.com> - 2012-11-05 21:51 -0800
      Re: Multi-dimensional list initialization Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-11-06 09:04 +0000
        RE: Multi-dimensional list initialization "Shambhu Rajak" <shambhu.rajak@calsoftinc.com> - 2012-11-06 18:57 +0530
        Re: Multi-dimensional list initialization Andrew Robinson <andrew3@r3dsolutions.com> - 2012-11-06 14:41 -0800
          Re: Multi-dimensional list initialization Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-11-07 01:55 +0000
            Re: Multi-dimensional list initialization Demian Brecht <demianbrecht@gmail.com> - 2012-11-06 22:56 -0800
            Re: Multi-dimensional list initialization wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2012-11-07 00:57 -0800
            Re: Multi-dimensional list initialization Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-11-07 22:27 +0000
            Re: Multi-dimensional list initialization Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2012-11-07 16:39 -0700
            Re: Multi-dimensional list initialization Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2012-11-08 00:09 -0700
            Re: Multi-dimensional list initialization Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2012-11-08 08:58 -0700
            Re: Multi-dimensional list initialization Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-11-09 01:39 +0000
            Re: Multi-dimensional list initialization Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-11-09 17:07 +1100
              Re: Multi-dimensional list initialization Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-11-09 06:37 +0000
                Re: Multi-dimensional list initialization Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-11-09 17:59 +1100
                Re: Multi-dimensional list initialization Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-11-09 07:27 +0000
                Re: Multi-dimensional list initialization rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2012-11-09 07:05 -0800
                Re: Multi-dimensional list initialization Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-11-10 02:23 +1100
            Re: Multi-dimensional list initialization Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2012-11-09 14:34 -0500
            RE: Multi-dimensional list initialization "Prasad, Ramit" <ramit.prasad@jpmorgan.com> - 2012-11-09 20:31 +0000
            Re: Multi-dimensional list initialization Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2012-11-09 13:49 -0800
        RE: Multi-dimensional list initialization "Prasad, Ramit" <ramit.prasad@jpmorgan.com> - 2012-11-06 23:39 +0000
        Re: Multi-dimensional list initialization Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2012-11-06 16:52 -0700
        Re: Multi-dimensional list initialization MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2012-11-07 00:23 +0000
          Re: Multi-dimensional list initialization rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2012-11-06 20:11 -0800
          Re: Multi-dimensional list initialization Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-11-07 05:05 +0000
            Re: Multi-dimensional list initialization Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2012-11-07 00:12 -0500
              Re: Multi-dimensional list initialization Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2012-11-07 18:32 +1300
                RE: Multi-dimensional list initialization "Prasad, Ramit" <ramit.prasad@jpmorgan.com> - 2012-11-07 15:57 +0000
            Re: Multi-dimensional list initialization Jussi Piitulainen <jpiitula@ling.helsinki.fi> - 2012-11-07 10:52 +0200
            Re: Multi-dimensional list initialization MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2012-11-07 17:17 +0000
              Re: Multi-dimensional list initialization Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-11-07 22:36 +0000
        Re: Multi-dimensional list initialization Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2012-11-07 07:23 -0800
        Re: Multi-dimensional list initialization Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2012-11-07 14:01 -0700
          Re: Multi-dimensional list initialization Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-11-08 00:00 +0000
            Re: Multi-dimensional list initialization Oscar Benjamin <oscar.j.benjamin@gmail.com> - 2012-11-08 00:30 +0000
              Re: Multi-dimensional list initialization Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-11-08 03:47 +0000
            Re: Multi-dimensional list initialization Andrew Robinson <andrew3@r3dsolutions.com> - 2012-11-07 20:51 -0800
            Re: Multi-dimensional list initialization wrw@mac.com - 2012-11-08 08:26 -0500
        Re: Multi-dimensional list initialization Andrew Robinson <andrew3@r3dsolutions.com> - 2012-11-07 16:24 -0800
          Re: Multi-dimensional list initialization Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-11-08 04:20 +0000
    Re: Multi-dimensional list initialization Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-11-06 17:07 +1100
    Re: Multi-dimensional list initialization Andrew Robinson <andrew3@r3dsolutions.com> - 2012-11-06 00:21 -0800
    Re: Multi-dimensional list initialization Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2012-11-06 02:19 -0700
    RE: Multi-dimensional list initialization "Prasad, Ramit" <ramit.prasad@jpmorgan.com> - 2012-11-06 17:32 +0000
    Re: Multi-dimensional list initialization Andrew Robinson <andrew3@r3dsolutions.com> - 2012-11-06 13:14 -0800
    Re: Multi-dimensional list initialization Andrew Robinson <andrew3@r3dsolutions.com> - 2012-11-06 13:19 -0800
    Re: Multi-dimensional list initialization Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2012-11-06 15:46 -0700
      Re: Multi-dimensional list initialization Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2012-11-07 18:34 +1300
        Re: Multi-dimensional list initialization Oscar Benjamin <oscar.j.benjamin@gmail.com> - 2012-11-07 14:00 +0000
        Re: Multi-dimensional list initialization Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2012-11-07 06:47 -0800
        Re: Multi-dimensional list initialization Oscar Benjamin <oscar.j.benjamin@gmail.com> - 2012-11-07 23:06 +0000
        Re: Multi-dimensional list initialization Greg Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2012-11-08 14:29 +1300
  Re: Multi-dimensional list initialization wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2012-11-05 01:55 -0800

csiph-web