Re: Multi-dimensional list initialization

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From	Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com>
Date	2012-11-06 16:52 -0700
Subject	Re: Multi-dimensional list initialization
Newsgroups	comp.lang.python
Message-ID	<mailman.3347.1352245953.27098.python-list@python.org> (permalink)

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On Tue, Nov 6, 2012 at 3:41 PM, Andrew Robinson
<andrew3@r3dsolutions.com> wrote:
>>      Q: What about other mutable objects like sets or dicts?
>>      A: No, the elements are never copied.
>
> They aren't list multiplication compatible in any event! It's a total
> nonsense objection.
>
> If these are inconsistent in my idea -- OBVIOUSLY -- they are inconsistent
> in Python's present implementation.  You can't even reference duplicate them
> NOW.
>
>>>> { 1:'a', 2:'b', 3:'c' } * 2
>
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "<stdin>", line 1, in <module>
> TypeError: unsupported operand type(s) for *: 'dict' and 'int'

The objection is not nonsense; you've merely misconstrued it.  If
[[1,2,3]] * 4 is expected to create a mutable matrix of 1s, 2s, and
3s, then one would expect [[{}]] * 4 to create a mutable matrix of
dicts.  If the dicts are not copied, then this fails for the same
reason

>>      Q: How about if I use delegation to proxy a list?
>>      A: Oh no, they definitely won't be copied.
>
> Give an example usage of why someone would want to do this.  Then we can
> discuss it.

Seriously?  Read a book on design patterns.  You might start at SO:

http://stackoverflow.com/questions/832536/when-to-use-delegation-instead-of-inheritance

>> Losing consistency in favour of saving a few characters for something as
>> uncommon as list multiplication is a poor tradeoff. That's why this
>> proposal has been rejected again and again and again every time it has
>> been suggested.
>
> Please link to the objection being proposed to the developers, and their
> reasoning for rejecting it.
> I think you are exaggerating.

>From Google:

http://bugs.python.org/issue1408
http://bugs.python.org/issue12597
http://bugs.python.org/issue9108
http://bugs.python.org/issue7823

Note that in two out of these four cases, the reporter was trying to
multiply lists of dicts, not just lists of lists.

> Besides, 2D arrays are *not* rare and people *have* to copy internals of
> them very often.
> The copy speed will be the same or *faster*, and the typing less -- and the
> psychological mistakes *less*, the elegance more.

List multiplication is not potentially useful for copying 2D lists,
only for initializing them.  For copying an existing nested list,
you're still stuck with either copy.deepcopy() or a list
comprehension.

> It's hardly going to confuse anyone to say that lists are copied with list
> multiplication, but the elements are not.
>
> Every time someone passes a list to a function, they *know* that the list is
> passed by value -- and the elements are passed by reference.  People in
> Python are USED to lists being "the" way to weird behavior that other
> languages don't do.

Incorrect.  Python uses what is commonly known as call-by-object, not
call-by-value or call-by-reference.  Passing the list by value would
imply that the list is copied, and that appends or removes to the list
inside the function would not affect the original list.  This is not
what Python does; the list inside the function and the list passed in
are the same list.  At the same time, the function does not have
access to the original reference to the list and cannot reassign it by
reassigning its own reference, so it is not call-by-reference
semantics either.

Thread

Multi-dimensional list initialization Demian Brecht <demianbrecht@gmail.com> - 2012-11-04 22:27 -0800
  Re: Multi-dimensional list initialization Hans Mulder <hansmu@xs4all.nl> - 2012-11-05 10:13 +0100
    Re: Multi-dimensional list initialization Oscar Benjamin <oscar.j.benjamin@gmail.com> - 2012-11-06 01:32 +0000
    Re: Multi-dimensional list initialization Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-11-06 13:01 +1100
    Re: Multi-dimensional list initialization Oscar Benjamin <oscar.j.benjamin@gmail.com> - 2012-11-06 02:30 +0000
    Re: Multi-dimensional list initialization Andrew Robinson <andrew3@r3dsolutions.com> - 2012-11-05 21:51 -0800
      Re: Multi-dimensional list initialization Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-11-06 09:04 +0000
        RE: Multi-dimensional list initialization "Shambhu Rajak" <shambhu.rajak@calsoftinc.com> - 2012-11-06 18:57 +0530
        Re: Multi-dimensional list initialization Andrew Robinson <andrew3@r3dsolutions.com> - 2012-11-06 14:41 -0800
          Re: Multi-dimensional list initialization Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-11-07 01:55 +0000
            Re: Multi-dimensional list initialization Demian Brecht <demianbrecht@gmail.com> - 2012-11-06 22:56 -0800
            Re: Multi-dimensional list initialization wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2012-11-07 00:57 -0800
            Re: Multi-dimensional list initialization Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-11-07 22:27 +0000
            Re: Multi-dimensional list initialization Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2012-11-07 16:39 -0700
            Re: Multi-dimensional list initialization Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2012-11-08 00:09 -0700
            Re: Multi-dimensional list initialization Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2012-11-08 08:58 -0700
            Re: Multi-dimensional list initialization Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-11-09 01:39 +0000
            Re: Multi-dimensional list initialization Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-11-09 17:07 +1100
              Re: Multi-dimensional list initialization Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-11-09 06:37 +0000
                Re: Multi-dimensional list initialization Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-11-09 17:59 +1100
                Re: Multi-dimensional list initialization Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-11-09 07:27 +0000
                Re: Multi-dimensional list initialization rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2012-11-09 07:05 -0800
                Re: Multi-dimensional list initialization Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-11-10 02:23 +1100
            Re: Multi-dimensional list initialization Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2012-11-09 14:34 -0500
            RE: Multi-dimensional list initialization "Prasad, Ramit" <ramit.prasad@jpmorgan.com> - 2012-11-09 20:31 +0000
            Re: Multi-dimensional list initialization Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2012-11-09 13:49 -0800
        RE: Multi-dimensional list initialization "Prasad, Ramit" <ramit.prasad@jpmorgan.com> - 2012-11-06 23:39 +0000
        Re: Multi-dimensional list initialization Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2012-11-06 16:52 -0700
        Re: Multi-dimensional list initialization MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2012-11-07 00:23 +0000
          Re: Multi-dimensional list initialization rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2012-11-06 20:11 -0800
          Re: Multi-dimensional list initialization Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-11-07 05:05 +0000
            Re: Multi-dimensional list initialization Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2012-11-07 00:12 -0500
              Re: Multi-dimensional list initialization Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2012-11-07 18:32 +1300
                RE: Multi-dimensional list initialization "Prasad, Ramit" <ramit.prasad@jpmorgan.com> - 2012-11-07 15:57 +0000
            Re: Multi-dimensional list initialization Jussi Piitulainen <jpiitula@ling.helsinki.fi> - 2012-11-07 10:52 +0200
            Re: Multi-dimensional list initialization MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2012-11-07 17:17 +0000
              Re: Multi-dimensional list initialization Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-11-07 22:36 +0000
        Re: Multi-dimensional list initialization Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2012-11-07 07:23 -0800
        Re: Multi-dimensional list initialization Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2012-11-07 14:01 -0700
          Re: Multi-dimensional list initialization Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-11-08 00:00 +0000
            Re: Multi-dimensional list initialization Oscar Benjamin <oscar.j.benjamin@gmail.com> - 2012-11-08 00:30 +0000
              Re: Multi-dimensional list initialization Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-11-08 03:47 +0000
            Re: Multi-dimensional list initialization Andrew Robinson <andrew3@r3dsolutions.com> - 2012-11-07 20:51 -0800
            Re: Multi-dimensional list initialization wrw@mac.com - 2012-11-08 08:26 -0500
        Re: Multi-dimensional list initialization Andrew Robinson <andrew3@r3dsolutions.com> - 2012-11-07 16:24 -0800
          Re: Multi-dimensional list initialization Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-11-08 04:20 +0000
    Re: Multi-dimensional list initialization Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-11-06 17:07 +1100
    Re: Multi-dimensional list initialization Andrew Robinson <andrew3@r3dsolutions.com> - 2012-11-06 00:21 -0800
    Re: Multi-dimensional list initialization Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2012-11-06 02:19 -0700
    RE: Multi-dimensional list initialization "Prasad, Ramit" <ramit.prasad@jpmorgan.com> - 2012-11-06 17:32 +0000
    Re: Multi-dimensional list initialization Andrew Robinson <andrew3@r3dsolutions.com> - 2012-11-06 13:14 -0800
    Re: Multi-dimensional list initialization Andrew Robinson <andrew3@r3dsolutions.com> - 2012-11-06 13:19 -0800
    Re: Multi-dimensional list initialization Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2012-11-06 15:46 -0700
      Re: Multi-dimensional list initialization Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2012-11-07 18:34 +1300
        Re: Multi-dimensional list initialization Oscar Benjamin <oscar.j.benjamin@gmail.com> - 2012-11-07 14:00 +0000
        Re: Multi-dimensional list initialization Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2012-11-07 06:47 -0800
        Re: Multi-dimensional list initialization Oscar Benjamin <oscar.j.benjamin@gmail.com> - 2012-11-07 23:06 +0000
        Re: Multi-dimensional list initialization Greg Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2012-11-08 14:29 +1300
  Re: Multi-dimensional list initialization wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2012-11-05 01:55 -0800

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