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Re: Language design

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From Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu>
Subject Re: Language design
Date Wed, 11 Sep 2013 21:40:39 -0400
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On 9/11/2013 8:49 PM, Mark Janssen wrote:
>>> 1) It tried to make Object the parent of every class.
>>
>> Tried, and succeeded.
>
> Really?  Are you saying you (and the community at-large) always derive
> from Object as your base class?

The name is 'object', and yes, everyone does it because it is automatic. 
(I am including indirect inheritance, and excluding weird metaclass games.)

 >>> class C(): pass

 >>> dir(C)
['__class__', '__delattr__', '__dict__', '__dir__', '__doc__', '__eq__', 
'__format__', '__ge__', '__getattribute__', '__gt__', '__hash__', 
'__init__', '__le__', '__lt__', '__module__', '__ne__', '__new__', 
'__reduce__', '__reduce_ex__', '__repr__', '__setattr__', '__sizeof__', 
'__str__', '__subclasshook__', '__weakref__']

Just *where* do you think all those methods come from.

>>> C.__bases__
(<class 'object'>,)

> But wait is it the "base" (at the bottom of the hierarchy) or is it
> the "parent" at the top?

This sort of quibbling should be beneath you.

> A dict is-a set of {key:object, key:object} pairs bound together with
> a colon ":".

Yes... but there is a very important additional condition: each key 
appears only once.

Humans are primates, but that is not a sufficient characterization.

 > By inheriting from sets you get a lot of useful
> functionality for free.

Actually, you get a lot of un-useful functionality for free. Because of 
the extra condition, the rule for adding a key:object pair to a dict is 
different from the rule for adding a key:object pair to a set of such 
pairs. The set-union of two dicts is not necessarily a dict. To put is 
another way, dicts as set subclasses would violate the Liskov 
Substitution Principle.

'Homogenous' sets (of strings, numbers) would be proper subclasses of set.

> Right.  The dict literal should be {:}

and the set literal 'should' be {}, and would be if Python were 
redesigned from scratch. Is your imagination so stunted that you 
actually think we did not discuss that when designing Python 3?
We did, but Guido rejected switching because he thought it would cause 
too much pain and discourage adoption of Python 3 even more than the 
other code-breaking changes that were made.

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy

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Thread

Language design Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2013-09-10 06:09 +0000
  Re: Language design diverman <pavel@schon.cz> - 2013-09-09 23:59 -0700
  Re: Language design Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2013-09-10 17:07 +1000
    Re: Language design Nobody <nobody@nowhere.com> - 2013-09-11 01:03 +0100
      Re: Language design Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-09-11 00:53 +0000
        Re: Language design Nobody <nobody@nowhere.com> - 2013-09-12 18:23 +0100
  Re: Language design Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-09-10 09:58 +0200
  Re: Language design Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-09-10 20:20 +1000
  Re: Language design Chris Rebert <clp2@rebertia.com> - 2013-09-10 18:46 -0700
  Re: Language design Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-09-11 14:21 +1000
  Re: Language design Burak Arslan <burak.arslan@arskom.com.tr> - 2013-09-11 13:38 +0300
    Re: Language design Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2013-09-11 14:32 +0000
      Re: Language design Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-09-12 00:46 +1000
  Re: Language design Wayne Werner <wayne@waynewerner.com> - 2013-09-11 06:42 -0500
  Re: Language design Dave Angel <davea@davea.name> - 2013-09-11 12:05 +0000
  Re: Language design Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2013-09-11 07:52 -0700
  Re: Language design Burak Arslan <burak.arslan@arskom.com.tr> - 2013-09-11 18:41 +0300
  Re: Language design Markus Rother <python@markusrother.de> - 2013-09-11 22:41 +0200
    Re: Language design Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-09-11 23:40 +0000
  Re: Language design Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-09-11 14:22 -0700
  Re: Language design Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-09-11 14:30 -0700
    Re: Language design Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-09-11 23:40 +0000
      Re: Language design Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-09-11 17:49 -0700
        Re: Language design Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2013-09-12 05:33 +0000
          Re: Language design Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-09-12 20:23 -0700
            Re: Language design Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-09-13 05:08 +0000
              Re: Language design Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-09-13 17:39 +1000
              Re: Language design Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-09-14 19:37 -0700
              Re: Language design Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-09-15 09:57 +0200
      Re: Language design Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2013-09-11 21:40 -0400
      Re: Language design Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-09-12 11:41 +1000
  Re: Language design Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2013-09-11 14:15 -0700
  RE: Language design "Prasad, Ramit" <ramit.prasad@jpmorgan.com.dmarc.invalid> - 2013-09-11 21:56 +0000
  Re: Language design Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2013-09-12 09:16 +1000
  Please omit false legalese footers (was: Language design) Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2013-09-12 09:22 +1000
    Re: Please omit false legalese footers (was: Language design) Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-12 20:12 +0000
  Re: Language design Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-09-12 09:27 +1000
  Re: Language design Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2013-09-12 09:19 +1000
  Re: Language design Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2013-09-11 19:51 -0400
  Re: Language design Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-09-11 17:25 -0700
  Re: Language design Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-09-12 10:31 +1000
    Re: Language design Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-09-12 02:33 +0000
      Re: Language design Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-09-11 22:43 -0400
        Re: Language design Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-09-12 12:58 +1000
        Re: Language design Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2013-09-12 05:08 +0000
  Re: Language design Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-09-11 17:34 -0700
  Re: Language design Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-09-11 17:37 -0700
  Re: Language design Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-09-12 10:40 +1000
  Re: Language design Benjamin Kaplan <benjamin.kaplan@case.edu> - 2013-09-11 17:54 -0700
  Re: Language design Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2013-09-12 10:57 +1000
  Re: Language design Joshua Landau <joshua@landau.ws> - 2013-09-12 05:17 +0100
  Re: Please omit false legalese footers (was: Language design) Skip Montanaro <skip@pobox.com> - 2013-09-12 04:27 -0500
  Re: Please omit false legalese footers (was: Language design) Oscar Benjamin <oscar.j.benjamin@gmail.com> - 2013-09-12 10:44 +0100
  Re: Language design Markus Rother <python@markusrother.de> - 2013-09-12 19:51 +0200
    Re: Language design Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2013-09-12 18:06 +0000
  Re: Language design Markus Rother <python@markusrother.de> - 2013-09-12 20:13 +0200
  Re: Language design Markus Rother <python@markusrother.de> - 2013-09-12 20:24 +0200
    Re: Language design Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2013-09-12 19:18 +0000
  Re: Language design Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2013-09-12 11:05 -0700
  Re: Language design Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2013-09-12 14:37 -0400
  Re: Language design Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2013-09-12 14:46 -0400
  Re: Language design Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-09-13 07:53 +1000
  Re: Language design Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-09-13 09:04 +0200
    Re: Language design Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-09-13 10:13 +0000
      Re: Language design Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-09-13 21:16 +1000
      Re: Language design Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-09-13 13:28 +0200
      Re: Language design Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2013-09-13 15:32 -0400
      Re: Language design Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-09-14 09:57 +1000
        Re: Language design Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2013-09-18 14:57 +0000
          Re: Language design Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-09-19 01:02 +1000
            Re: Language design Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2013-09-18 15:08 +0000
              Re: Language design Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-09-19 01:12 +1000
              Re: Language design William Ray Wing <wrw@mac.com> - 2013-09-18 12:58 -0400
                Re: Language design wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2013-09-18 10:45 -0700
                Re: Language design Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2013-09-18 17:55 +0000
      Re: Language design Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-09-13 17:28 -0700
      Re: Language design Vito De Tullio <vito.detullio@gmail.com> - 2013-09-14 07:25 +0200

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