Re: Feature suggestion -- return if true

References	<8abff237-5ccd-4eb6-85c8-cdc9e87520b7@bl1g2000vbb.googlegroups.com> <mailman.233.1302568099.9059.python-list@python.org> <87k4eze4dl.fsf@mithlond.arda>
Date	2011-04-12 13:26 -0700
Subject	Re: Feature suggestion -- return if true
From	Chris Rebert <clp2@rebertia.com>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.python
Message-ID	<mailman.282.1302640011.9059.python-list@python.org> (permalink)

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On Tue, Apr 12, 2011 at 11:00 AM, Teemu Likonen <tlikonen@iki.fi> wrote:
> * 2011-04-12T10:27:55+10:00 * James Mills wrote:
>> On Tue, Apr 12, 2011 at 9:17 AM, zildjohn01 <zildjohn01@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> This is an idea I've had bouncing around in my head for a long time
>>> now. I propose the following syntax:
>>
>> Maybe this is more appropriare for the python-ideas list ?
>>
>>>    return? expr
>>
>> This syntax does not fit well within python ideology.
>
> I'm a simple Lisp guy who wonders if it is be possible to add some kind
> of macros to the language. Then features like this could be added by
> anybody. Lisp people do this all the time and there is no need for
> feature requests or any discussions.

I think Ben "Yahtzee" Croshaw's comments on open-world sandbox video
games (of all things) have a lot of applicability to why allowing
full-on macros can be a bad idea.

Paraphrasing liberally from his review of Far Cry 2:
"Letting the [programmer] create their own [language constructs is]
always done at the expense of proper [orthogonality, elegance, and
coherence]. Maybe sometimes I don't want to create my own [programming
language] experience. Maybe I want to have an experience that's been
carefully crafted by professional [language] designers and
[architects]. But [a] delusion has arisen that absolutely anyone can
contribute something valid, regardless of qualifications. In TV news
for example, you'll often see them pause to hear the opinion of a
seventy-five-year-old housebound racist from Lemington. And now you
get [languages] like [Lisp] that rely heavily on user-made [language
constructs]. Which I prophesise doom for, because most people are not
[language] designers, and you're just going to end up with oceans of
slurry, as indeed we have. It's like giving someone a stack of paper
and a [pen] and claiming that that's as good as the latest [New York
Times] bestseller."

IOW, a language is usually better for having such discussions and
having a fairly coherent worldview enforced by the existence of a
managing authority.

Cheers,
Chris
--
http://blog.rebertia.com

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Feature suggestion -- return if true zildjohn01 <zildjohn01@gmail.com> - 2011-04-11 16:17 -0700
  Re: Feature suggestion -- return if true James Mills <prologic@shortcircuit.net.au> - 2011-04-12 10:27 +1000
    Re: Feature suggestion -- return if true Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-04-12 01:44 +0000
      Re: Feature suggestion -- return if true James Mills <prologic@shortcircuit.net.au> - 2011-04-12 12:12 +1000
        Re: Feature suggestion -- return if true Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-04-12 02:18 +0000
          Re: Feature suggestion -- return if true James Mills <prologic@shortcircuit.net.au> - 2011-04-12 12:44 +1000
            Re: Feature suggestion -- return if true Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-04-12 13:42 +0000
            Re: Feature suggestion -- return if true "Martin v. Loewis" <martin@v.loewis.de> - 2011-04-17 12:03 +0200
              Re: Feature suggestion -- return if true James Mills <prologic@shortcircuit.net.au> - 2011-04-18 09:36 +1000
      Re: Feature suggestion -- return if true James Mills <prologic@shortcircuit.net.au> - 2011-04-12 12:20 +1000
      Re: Feature suggestion -- return if true Zero Piraeus <schesis@gmail.com> - 2011-04-11 22:43 -0400
      Re: Feature suggestion -- return if true Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-04-12 12:44 +1000
      Re: Feature suggestion -- return if true Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-04-12 12:49 +1000
      Re: Feature suggestion -- return if true James Mills <prologic@shortcircuit.net.au> - 2011-04-12 12:59 +1000
      Re: Feature suggestion -- return if true James Mills <prologic@shortcircuit.net.au> - 2011-04-12 13:01 +1000
        Re: Feature suggestion -- return if true Nobody <nobody@nowhere.com> - 2011-04-12 07:08 +0100
          Re: Feature suggestion -- return if true James Mills <prologic@shortcircuit.net.au> - 2011-04-12 16:21 +1000
            Re: Feature suggestion -- return if true Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-04-12 10:52 +0000
            Re: Feature suggestion -- return if true scattered <tooscattered@gmail.com> - 2011-04-12 03:55 -0700
              Re: Feature suggestion -- return if true "Colin J. Williams" <cjw@ncf.ca> - 2011-04-12 10:01 -0400
            Re: Feature suggestion -- return if true Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-04-12 13:50 +0000
        Re: Feature suggestion -- return if true Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-04-12 13:44 +0000
      Re: Feature suggestion -- return if true Westley Martínez <anikom15@gmail.com> - 2011-04-12 07:05 -0700
        Re: Feature suggestion -- return if true scattered <tooscattered@gmail.com> - 2011-04-12 07:58 -0700
          Re: Feature suggestion -- return if true Westley Martínez <anikom15@gmail.com> - 2011-04-12 15:45 -0700
          Re: Feature suggestion -- return if true Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-04-13 08:52 +1000
        Re: Feature suggestion -- return if true zildjohn01 <zildjohn01@gmail.com> - 2011-04-12 11:25 -0700
          Re: Feature suggestion -- return if true Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2011-04-12 15:14 -0400
          Re: Feature suggestion -- return if true alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2011-04-12 21:05 -0700
    Re: Feature suggestion -- return if true Teemu Likonen <tlikonen@iki.fi> - 2011-04-12 21:00 +0300
      Re: Feature suggestion -- return if true Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2011-04-12 12:25 -0600
        Re: Feature suggestion -- return if true Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2011-04-12 20:13 +0000
          Re: Feature suggestion -- return if true Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2011-04-12 20:16 +0000
      Re: Feature suggestion -- return if true Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2011-04-12 12:29 -0600
      Re: Feature suggestion -- return if true Paul Rudin <paul.nospam@rudin.co.uk> - 2011-04-12 19:28 +0100
      Re: Feature suggestion -- return if true Chris Rebert <clp2@rebertia.com> - 2011-04-12 13:26 -0700
      Re: Feature suggestion -- return if true James Mills <prologic@shortcircuit.net.au> - 2011-04-13 08:34 +1000
      Re: Feature suggestion -- return if true Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2011-04-12 16:06 -0700
      Re: Feature suggestion -- return if true James Mills <prologic@shortcircuit.net.au> - 2011-04-13 09:12 +1000
      Re: Feature suggestion -- return if true Westley Martínez <anikom15@gmail.com> - 2011-04-12 16:15 -0700
      Re: Feature suggestion -- return if true Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2011-04-12 16:48 -0700
        Re: Feature suggestion -- return if true Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-04-13 00:03 +0000
          Re: Feature suggestion -- return if true Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2011-04-12 19:42 -0700
          Re: Feature suggestion -- return if true Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-04-13 13:00 +1000
          Re: Feature suggestion -- return if true James Mills <prologic@shortcircuit.net.au> - 2011-04-13 13:28 +1000
      Re: Feature suggestion -- return if true Teemu Likonen <tlikonen@iki.fi> - 2011-04-13 13:58 +0300
  Re: Feature suggestion -- return if true Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-04-12 10:46 +1000
    Re: Feature suggestion -- return if true Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-04-17 16:21 +1200
      Re: Feature suggestion -- return if true Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-04-17 14:31 +1000
      Re: Feature suggestion -- return if true Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-04-17 08:45 +0000
        Re: Feature suggestion -- return if true Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-04-17 19:07 +1000
          Re: Feature suggestion -- return if true Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-04-17 15:23 +0000
        Re: Feature suggestion -- return if true Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-04-18 12:25 +1200
        Re: Feature suggestion -- return if true Dave Angel <davea@ieee.org> - 2011-04-17 22:04 -0400
        Re: Feature suggestion -- return if true Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-04-18 12:10 +1000
          Re: Feature suggestion -- return if true Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-04-19 12:35 +1200
            Re: Feature suggestion -- return if true Jussi Piitulainen <jpiitula@ling.helsinki.fi> - 2011-04-19 09:42 +0300
              Re: Feature suggestion -- return if true Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-04-19 17:01 +1000
      Re: Feature suggestion -- return if true "D'Arcy J.M. Cain" <darcy@druid.net> - 2011-04-17 08:33 -0400
        Re: Feature suggestion -- return if true Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-04-17 15:10 +0000
        Re: Feature suggestion -- return if true aahz@pythoncraft.com (Aahz) - 2011-04-18 09:11 -0700
      Re: Feature suggestion -- return if true Greg Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-04-18 11:09 +1200
  Re: Feature suggestion -- return if true Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-04-12 10:51 +1000
  Re: Feature suggestion -- return if true Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2011-04-11 23:58 -0700
    Re: Feature suggestion -- return if true John Roth <johnroth1@gmail.com> - 2011-04-12 06:16 -0700
    Re: Feature suggestion -- return if true Mel <mwilson@the-wire.com> - 2011-04-12 11:12 -0400

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