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Re: Python handles globals badly.

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Subject Re: Python handles globals badly.
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From "Sven R. Kunze" <srkunze@mail.de>
Date Wed, 9 Sep 2015 20:26:05 +0200
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On 09.09.2015 19:55, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> On Wed, 9 Sep 2015 11:09 am, Mario Figueiredo wrote:
>
>> You know, it is a pointless exercise to try and downplay programming
>> languages (any programming language) that has proven its worth by being
>> generally adopted by the programming community. Adoption is the sign of
>> a respected and well designed language.
> Counter-examples: PHP and C.
>
> Adoption of programming languages is driven by many things, technical
> excellence and careful design are not even in the top 10. Most of them are
> social in nature, particularly "what is everyone else using?". Network
> effects dominate: you could design the perfect language, but if nobody else
> uses it, nobody will use it.
Just to understand it the way you want it to be understood: what do you 
mean by "technical excellence"?
>
> Sometimes a language will actually gain a kind of technical excellence
> despite some really shitty design decisions -- but usually at great cost
> elsewhere. C is a good example of that. Due to lousy decisions made by the
> designers of C, it is a language really well suited for writing fast,
> incorrect code. Since programmers benefit from writing fast code, but
> rarely suffer from writing incorrect code (it's mostly users who suffer the
> consequences of security holes), we have ended up in the situation we live
> in now, where compilers compete to write faster and faster code that has
> less and less relation to what the programmer intended.
>
> (I wanted to link to the "Everything Is Broken" essay on The Medium, but the
> page appears to be gone. This makes me sad. BTW, what's the point of
> Google's cache when it just redirects to the original, missing, page?)
Do you mean https://medium.com/message/everything-is-broken-81e5f33a24e1 ?
> In fairness to the C creators, I'm sure that nobody back in the early
> seventies imagined that malware and security vulnerabilities would be as
> widespread as they have become. But still, the fundamental decisions made
> by C are lousy. Assignment is an expression? Lack of first-class arrays?
> The C pre-processor? They're pretty awful, but *nothing* in the entire
> history of computing, not even Intercal and the COMEFROM command, comes
> even close to the evil that is C "undefined behaviour".
>
> I believe that the computing industry may never recover from the harm done
> to it by the widespread use of C.
It'll take some time.

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Re: Python handles globals badly. tdev@freenet.de - 2015-09-02 11:47 -0700
  Re: Python handles globals badly. tdev@freenet.de - 2015-09-02 12:32 -0700
  Re: Python handles globals badly. Emile van Sebille <emile@fenx.com> - 2015-09-02 12:34 -0700
  Re: Python handles globals badly. Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2015-09-02 13:38 -0600
  Re: Python handles globals badly. "Sven R. Kunze" <srkunze@mail.de> - 2015-09-02 22:08 +0200
  Re: Python handles globals badly. MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2015-09-02 21:22 +0100
  Re: Python handles globals badly. Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-09-02 22:19 +0100
  Re: Python handles globals badly. Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-09-03 02:16 +0100
  Re: Python handles globals badly. Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-09-03 11:49 +1000
  Re: Python handles globals badly. Vladimir Ignatov <kmisoft@gmail.com> - 2015-09-04 20:05 -0400
  Re: Python handles globals badly. Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2015-09-08 10:40 +0200
  Re: Python handles globals badly. Vladimir Ignatov <kmisoft@gmail.com> - 2015-09-08 07:55 -0400
  Re: Python handles globals badly. Akira Li <4kir4.1i@gmail.com> - 2015-09-08 15:35 +0300
  Re: Python handles globals badly. Mario Figueiredo <marfig@gmx.com> - 2015-09-08 14:05 +0100
  Re: Python handles globals badly. Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2015-09-08 08:31 -0600
    Re: Python handles globals badly. Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-09-09 01:56 +1000
      Re: Python handles globals badly. Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2015-09-08 17:55 -0600
        Re: Python handles globals badly. Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-09-09 13:23 +1000
          Re: Python handles globals badly. Christian Gollwitzer <auriocus@gmx.de> - 2015-09-09 18:09 +0200
            Re: Python handles globals badly. Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-09-10 03:22 +1000
              Re: Python handles globals badly. Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-09-10 03:27 +1000
              Re: Python handles globals badly. William Ray Wing <wrw@mac.com> - 2015-09-09 13:59 -0400
              Re: Python handles globals badly. Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-09-09 20:20 +0100
                Re: Python handles globals badly. Peter Pearson <pkpearson@nowhere.invalid> - 2015-09-10 20:49 +0000
              Re: Python handles globals badly. MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2015-09-09 20:22 +0100
              Re: Python handles globals badly. Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-09-10 05:27 +1000
      Re: Python handles globals badly. Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2015-09-09 12:42 +0200
      Re: Python handles globals badly. Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-09-09 09:33 -0400
  Re: Python handles globals badly. random832@fastmail.us - 2015-09-08 12:13 -0400
  Re: Python handles globals badly. MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2015-09-08 18:41 +0100
  Re: Python handles globals badly. Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-09-08 23:41 +0100
  Re: Python handles globals badly. MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2015-09-09 00:20 +0100
  Re: Python handles globals badly. Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-09-09 00:32 +0100
  Re: Python handles globals badly. Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2015-09-08 20:02 -0400
    Re: Python handles globals badly. "Skybuck Flying" <skybuck2000@hotmail.com> - 2015-09-11 10:23 +0200
  Re: Python handles globals badly. Mario Figueiredo <marfig@gmx.com> - 2015-09-09 02:09 +0100
    Re: Python handles globals badly. Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-09-10 03:55 +1000
      Re: Python handles globals badly. Laura Creighton <lac@openend.se> - 2015-09-09 20:05 +0200
      Re: Python handles globals badly. Emile van Sebille <emile@fenx.com> - 2015-09-09 11:23 -0700
        Re: Python handles globals badly. Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-09-10 22:20 +1000
      Re: Python handles globals badly. "Sven R. Kunze" <srkunze@mail.de> - 2015-09-09 20:26 +0200
        Re: Python handles globals badly. Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-09-11 01:50 +1000
      Re: Python handles globals badly. random832@fastmail.us - 2015-09-09 14:59 -0400
        Re: Python handles globals badly. Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-09-11 01:59 +1000
          Re: Python handles globals badly. random832@fastmail.us - 2015-09-10 12:31 -0400
            Re: Python handles globals badly. Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-09-11 04:13 +1000
              Re: Python handles globals badly. Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-09-11 04:33 +1000
              Re: Python handles globals badly. Jussi Piitulainen <harvesting@makes.email.invalid> - 2015-09-10 22:11 +0300
              Re: Python handles globals badly. random832@fastmail.us - 2015-09-10 16:30 -0400
          Re: Python handles globals badly. Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-09-11 02:48 +1000
          Re: Python handles globals badly. alister <alister.nospam.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2015-09-10 19:56 +0000
          Re: Python handles globals badly. random832@fastmail.us - 2015-09-10 16:07 -0400
          Re: Python handles globals badly. Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-09-11 11:35 +1000
          Re: Python handles globals badly. Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2015-09-11 12:19 +0200
            Re: Python handles globals badly. Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-09-11 14:59 +0300
              Re: Python handles globals badly. Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2015-09-14 09:13 +0200
      Re: Python handles globals badly. Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-09-10 05:00 +1000
      Re: Python handles globals badly. Laura Creighton <lac@openend.se> - 2015-09-09 21:14 +0200
      Re: Python handles globals badly. Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-09-10 05:18 +1000
        Re: Python handles globals badly. Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-09-10 22:18 +1000
          Re: Python handles globals badly. jkn <jkn_gg@nicorp.f9.co.uk> - 2015-09-10 08:09 -0700
          Re: Python handles globals badly. rurpy@yahoo.com - 2015-09-10 12:04 -0700
            Re: Python handles globals badly. Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-09-10 20:33 -0400
            Re: Python handles globals badly. Gene Heskett <gheskett@wdtv.com> - 2015-09-10 22:19 -0400
            Re: Python handles globals badly. Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-09-12 03:35 +0100
            Re: Python handles globals badly. Mario Figueiredo <marfig@gmx.com> - 2015-09-12 05:11 +0100
            Re: Python handles globals badly. Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-09-12 05:38 +0100
            Re: Python handles globals badly. Mario Figueiredo <marfig@gmx.com> - 2015-09-12 16:52 +0100
            Re: Python handles globals badly. Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-09-12 12:24 -0400
            Re: Python handles globals badly. Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-09-12 12:29 -0400
            Re: Python handles globals badly. MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2015-09-12 18:09 +0100
            Re: Python handles globals badly. Mario Figueiredo <marfig@gmx.com> - 2015-09-12 22:57 +0100
            Re: Python handles globals badly. Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-09-12 23:05 +0100
            Re: Python handles globals badly. Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-09-12 23:07 +0100
      Re: Python handles globals badly. "Sven R. Kunze" <srkunze@mail.de> - 2015-09-09 21:21 +0200
      Re: Python handles globals badly. Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-09-09 20:24 +0100
      Re: Python handles globals badly. Mario Figueiredo <marfig@gmx.com> - 2015-09-09 20:57 +0100
      Re: Python handles globals badly. Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-09-09 21:15 +0100
      Re: Python handles globals badly. Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2015-09-10 09:27 +0200
        Re: Python handles globals badly. Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-09-10 10:49 +0300
      Re: Python handles globals badly. Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2015-09-10 08:21 -0600
      Re: Python handles globals badly. Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2015-09-11 09:28 +0200
        Re: Python handles globals badly. Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-09-12 13:48 +1000
          Re: Python handles globals badly. Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2015-09-14 10:30 +0200
            Re: Python handles globals badly. Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-09-16 11:13 +1000
              Re: Python handles globals badly. Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-09-16 11:20 +1000
                Re: Python handles globals badly. Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-09-16 11:58 +1000
              Re: Python handles globals badly. Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2015-09-15 21:54 -0400
              Re: Python handles globals badly. Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2015-09-16 10:51 +0200
      Re: Python handles globals badly. random832@fastmail.us - 2015-09-11 08:50 -0400
  Re: Python handles globals badly. Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2015-09-09 11:26 +1000
  Re: Python handles globals badly. Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-09-09 11:41 +1000
  Re: Python handles globals badly. Mario Figueiredo <marfig@gmx.com> - 2015-09-09 03:43 +0100
  Re: Python handles globals badly. Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-09-09 13:03 +1000
  Re: Python handles globals badly. Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2015-09-09 15:53 +1000

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