Re: Python handles globals badly.

Date	2015-09-11 09:28 +0200
From	Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be>
Subject	Re: Python handles globals badly.
References	(7 earlier) <CAK_ErkjdWXG7aQ=Q23tq-ZVuyX_etdrC939WtCAPkeu2_5SZ8A@mail.gmail.com> <mailman.243.1441760967.8327.python-list@python.org> <55f072aa$0$1669$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com> <55F130CE.5060203@rece.vub.ac.be> <55F191CD.8040901@gmail.com>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.python
Message-ID	<mailman.361.1441957016.8327.python-list@python.org> (permalink)

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Op 10-09-15 om 16:21 schreef Michael Torrie:
> On 09/10/2015 01:27 AM, Antoon Pardon wrote:
>> Op 09-09-15 om 19:55 schreef Steven D'Aprano:
>>> In fairness to the C creators, I'm sure that nobody back in the early
>>> seventies imagined that malware and security vulnerabilities would be as
>>> widespread as they have become. But still, the fundamental decisions made
>>> by C are lousy. Assignment is an expression?
>> What is wrong with that?
> Makes for a common error of putting an assignment in a conditional
> expression like:
>
> if (a=4) this_is_always_true();

No it doesn't. You confuse a semantic characteristic with the
specifix syntax that was chosen to express it in C.

Should C have chosen '<-' as token for assignment, that error
would have been far less common.

The error is also facilitated because C doesn't have booleans
and so everything can be used as one. If C would have had
proper booleans and only allowed those as conditions in if
and while statements, most of those errors would have been
caught too, because the expression a=4 wouldn't produce a
boolean.

> GCC will give you a warning over that these days.  But many C
> programmers still adopt a notation of
>
> if (4 == a) do_something();
>
> to protect them if they accidentally leave out one =.  If assignment was
> not an expression, then the compiler would properly error out every time
> you used a solitary = in the conditional of an if statement.

A language can provide this kind of protection and still allow
assignment as an expression. A lousy syntactical choice, doesn't
invalidate a particular choice in semantics.

> Python strikes a good compromise.  You can chain = in an assignment
> statement, but you can't use them in a conditional expression.

Python could have chosen other options, like a different assignment
token, like providing a proper boolean type and expection such a type
in a condition context. It could reverse the assignment so that you
would have to write: expression = var, so that if someone accidently
writes if var = expression instead of if var == expression, that would
have been caught. It could combine some of these options.

Now you possibly don't like these possibilities, but they show there
are multiple syntactical possibilities that all allow for assignment
as expressions, and that are less vulnerable than C for a specific
kind of error.

-- 
Antoon Pardon

Thread

Re: Python handles globals badly. tdev@freenet.de - 2015-09-02 11:47 -0700
  Re: Python handles globals badly. tdev@freenet.de - 2015-09-02 12:32 -0700
  Re: Python handles globals badly. Emile van Sebille <emile@fenx.com> - 2015-09-02 12:34 -0700
  Re: Python handles globals badly. Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2015-09-02 13:38 -0600
  Re: Python handles globals badly. "Sven R. Kunze" <srkunze@mail.de> - 2015-09-02 22:08 +0200
  Re: Python handles globals badly. MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2015-09-02 21:22 +0100
  Re: Python handles globals badly. Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-09-02 22:19 +0100
  Re: Python handles globals badly. Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-09-03 02:16 +0100
  Re: Python handles globals badly. Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-09-03 11:49 +1000
  Re: Python handles globals badly. Vladimir Ignatov <kmisoft@gmail.com> - 2015-09-04 20:05 -0400
  Re: Python handles globals badly. Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2015-09-08 10:40 +0200
  Re: Python handles globals badly. Vladimir Ignatov <kmisoft@gmail.com> - 2015-09-08 07:55 -0400
  Re: Python handles globals badly. Akira Li <4kir4.1i@gmail.com> - 2015-09-08 15:35 +0300
  Re: Python handles globals badly. Mario Figueiredo <marfig@gmx.com> - 2015-09-08 14:05 +0100
  Re: Python handles globals badly. Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2015-09-08 08:31 -0600
    Re: Python handles globals badly. Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-09-09 01:56 +1000
      Re: Python handles globals badly. Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2015-09-08 17:55 -0600
        Re: Python handles globals badly. Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-09-09 13:23 +1000
          Re: Python handles globals badly. Christian Gollwitzer <auriocus@gmx.de> - 2015-09-09 18:09 +0200
            Re: Python handles globals badly. Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-09-10 03:22 +1000
              Re: Python handles globals badly. Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-09-10 03:27 +1000
              Re: Python handles globals badly. William Ray Wing <wrw@mac.com> - 2015-09-09 13:59 -0400
              Re: Python handles globals badly. Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-09-09 20:20 +0100
                Re: Python handles globals badly. Peter Pearson <pkpearson@nowhere.invalid> - 2015-09-10 20:49 +0000
              Re: Python handles globals badly. MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2015-09-09 20:22 +0100
              Re: Python handles globals badly. Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-09-10 05:27 +1000
      Re: Python handles globals badly. Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2015-09-09 12:42 +0200
      Re: Python handles globals badly. Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-09-09 09:33 -0400
  Re: Python handles globals badly. random832@fastmail.us - 2015-09-08 12:13 -0400
  Re: Python handles globals badly. MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2015-09-08 18:41 +0100
  Re: Python handles globals badly. Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-09-08 23:41 +0100
  Re: Python handles globals badly. MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2015-09-09 00:20 +0100
  Re: Python handles globals badly. Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-09-09 00:32 +0100
  Re: Python handles globals badly. Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2015-09-08 20:02 -0400
    Re: Python handles globals badly. "Skybuck Flying" <skybuck2000@hotmail.com> - 2015-09-11 10:23 +0200
  Re: Python handles globals badly. Mario Figueiredo <marfig@gmx.com> - 2015-09-09 02:09 +0100
    Re: Python handles globals badly. Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-09-10 03:55 +1000
      Re: Python handles globals badly. Laura Creighton <lac@openend.se> - 2015-09-09 20:05 +0200
      Re: Python handles globals badly. Emile van Sebille <emile@fenx.com> - 2015-09-09 11:23 -0700
        Re: Python handles globals badly. Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-09-10 22:20 +1000
      Re: Python handles globals badly. "Sven R. Kunze" <srkunze@mail.de> - 2015-09-09 20:26 +0200
        Re: Python handles globals badly. Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-09-11 01:50 +1000
      Re: Python handles globals badly. random832@fastmail.us - 2015-09-09 14:59 -0400
        Re: Python handles globals badly. Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-09-11 01:59 +1000
          Re: Python handles globals badly. random832@fastmail.us - 2015-09-10 12:31 -0400
            Re: Python handles globals badly. Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-09-11 04:13 +1000
              Re: Python handles globals badly. Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-09-11 04:33 +1000
              Re: Python handles globals badly. Jussi Piitulainen <harvesting@makes.email.invalid> - 2015-09-10 22:11 +0300
              Re: Python handles globals badly. random832@fastmail.us - 2015-09-10 16:30 -0400
          Re: Python handles globals badly. Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-09-11 02:48 +1000
          Re: Python handles globals badly. alister <alister.nospam.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2015-09-10 19:56 +0000
          Re: Python handles globals badly. random832@fastmail.us - 2015-09-10 16:07 -0400
          Re: Python handles globals badly. Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-09-11 11:35 +1000
          Re: Python handles globals badly. Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2015-09-11 12:19 +0200
            Re: Python handles globals badly. Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-09-11 14:59 +0300
              Re: Python handles globals badly. Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2015-09-14 09:13 +0200
      Re: Python handles globals badly. Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-09-10 05:00 +1000
      Re: Python handles globals badly. Laura Creighton <lac@openend.se> - 2015-09-09 21:14 +0200
      Re: Python handles globals badly. Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-09-10 05:18 +1000
        Re: Python handles globals badly. Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-09-10 22:18 +1000
          Re: Python handles globals badly. jkn <jkn_gg@nicorp.f9.co.uk> - 2015-09-10 08:09 -0700
          Re: Python handles globals badly. rurpy@yahoo.com - 2015-09-10 12:04 -0700
            Re: Python handles globals badly. Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-09-10 20:33 -0400
            Re: Python handles globals badly. Gene Heskett <gheskett@wdtv.com> - 2015-09-10 22:19 -0400
            Re: Python handles globals badly. Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-09-12 03:35 +0100
            Re: Python handles globals badly. Mario Figueiredo <marfig@gmx.com> - 2015-09-12 05:11 +0100
            Re: Python handles globals badly. Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-09-12 05:38 +0100
            Re: Python handles globals badly. Mario Figueiredo <marfig@gmx.com> - 2015-09-12 16:52 +0100
            Re: Python handles globals badly. Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-09-12 12:24 -0400
            Re: Python handles globals badly. Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-09-12 12:29 -0400
            Re: Python handles globals badly. MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2015-09-12 18:09 +0100
            Re: Python handles globals badly. Mario Figueiredo <marfig@gmx.com> - 2015-09-12 22:57 +0100
            Re: Python handles globals badly. Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-09-12 23:05 +0100
            Re: Python handles globals badly. Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-09-12 23:07 +0100
      Re: Python handles globals badly. "Sven R. Kunze" <srkunze@mail.de> - 2015-09-09 21:21 +0200
      Re: Python handles globals badly. Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-09-09 20:24 +0100
      Re: Python handles globals badly. Mario Figueiredo <marfig@gmx.com> - 2015-09-09 20:57 +0100
      Re: Python handles globals badly. Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-09-09 21:15 +0100
      Re: Python handles globals badly. Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2015-09-10 09:27 +0200
        Re: Python handles globals badly. Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-09-10 10:49 +0300
      Re: Python handles globals badly. Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2015-09-10 08:21 -0600
      Re: Python handles globals badly. Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2015-09-11 09:28 +0200
        Re: Python handles globals badly. Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-09-12 13:48 +1000
          Re: Python handles globals badly. Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2015-09-14 10:30 +0200
            Re: Python handles globals badly. Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-09-16 11:13 +1000
              Re: Python handles globals badly. Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-09-16 11:20 +1000
                Re: Python handles globals badly. Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-09-16 11:58 +1000
              Re: Python handles globals badly. Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2015-09-15 21:54 -0400
              Re: Python handles globals badly. Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2015-09-16 10:51 +0200
      Re: Python handles globals badly. random832@fastmail.us - 2015-09-11 08:50 -0400
  Re: Python handles globals badly. Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2015-09-09 11:26 +1000
  Re: Python handles globals badly. Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-09-09 11:41 +1000
  Re: Python handles globals badly. Mario Figueiredo <marfig@gmx.com> - 2015-09-09 03:43 +0100
  Re: Python handles globals badly. Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-09-09 13:03 +1000
  Re: Python handles globals badly. Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2015-09-09 15:53 +1000

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