Path: csiph.com!news.swapon.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!not-for-mail
From: Gene Heskett <gheskett@wdtv.com>
Newsgroups: comp.lang.python
Subject: Re: Photon mass (was: [Still off-top] Physics)
Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2016 12:36:14 -0500
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On Saturday 05 March 2016 10:46:04 Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn wrote:

> Gene Heskett wrote:
> > I've never heard of a massless photon,
>
> That is unfortunate as it should be common knowledge by now.
>
> > and they do exert a push on the surface they are reflected from, [=E2=
=80=A6]
>
> Photons exert a force on surfaces because they carry *momentum* or, as
> it had been understood in terminology that is obsolete now, a non-zero
> =E2=80=9C*relativistic* mass=E2=80=9D (that had been distinguished from =
=E2=80=9Crest mass=E2=80=9D).
>
To have "momentum" imply's mass in the real, we can measure it world.

However with my lack of education, I have a hard time reconciling that=20
they travel at C speed, when the classical math says that anything with=20
mass traveling at C speed will have aborbed enough energy in getting to=20
C speed, that its mass is then infinite. But its obviously not.

I once used relativity to explain to a degree'd FCC engineer exactly why=20
a UHF transmitter that used klystrons for amnplifiers, alway had a=20
backgound audio buzz. At the moment this was taking place, the station =20
was crippled as we'd had a circuit breaker failure, single phasing and=20
stopping the cooling water pump, which in turn destroyed the klystron=20
used as a visual amplifier (one circuit breaker boom as the building=20
went dark when the tube filled with steam, byby $120,000 USD), so just=20
to stay on the air, I had moved a weak & about used up klystron from the=20
aural cabinet to the visual cabinet, and tee connected the aural drive=20
into the visual drive.

When the engineer came in the door, one of the first things he had=20
noticed when he monitored the station from about 15 miles away the=20
previous evening, was that we were a UHF, but didn't have that annoying=20
background buzz in the sound.  So I had to explain it.

What we were observing was that by combining the two carrier signals into=20
one tube, meant that both signals were being treated equally to the =20
phenomenon they had called incidental carrier phase modulation, and its=20
created in the amplitude modulated signal because the 4 foot long=20
electron beam is traveling at a speed where speed vs mass is beginning=20
to make itself measureable. Said simply, the tube amplifies the signal=20
by nominally 30db, by introducing an electrical field across the input=20
cavities gap that alternately speeds up, or slows down, an electron=20
traverseing that gap with a 20 kilovolt induced speed. 4 feet and  3=20
more cavities later, those electrons are now bunched up, the ones in=20
front slowing to fall into the bunch, and the ones behind being pushed=20
to catch up with the bunch. That induces, because the beam is something=20
north of 5 amps, a considerable amount of power in the last cavity which=20
can be coupled back out and sent to the antenna, typically about 30 kw.

However, because this beam of electrons is traveling fast enough for=20
relativity to come into play, the energy applied to speed the beam up=20
encounters an electron with higher mass as it accelerates, whereas the=20
energy applied to slow it encounters an electron with lower mass, so the=20
deceleration is fractionally greater.  IOW, its not perfectly=20
symetrical, the net effect being that the average speed of the beam is=20
instantaneous power level dependent, the tube being effectively,=20
physically longer, with a longer transit time as the power level rises.
This is efffectively a frequency modulation, and an unwanted effect.

Some circuits, once the cause of the phenom was known, were designed to=20
predistort this by intruducing an opposing FM and cancel it, but by then=20
the heyday of the klysron amplifier was coming to an end because of its=20
horrible efficiency, that 30 kw of output came at a cost of a few hairs=20
over 100kw in the beam supply, making a UHF transmitter the local power=20
companies largest customer by a fairly wide margin. That tramsitter used=20
nearly 200 kw for every hour it was on the air, and multi-thousand=20
dollar power bills were getting the bean counters attention.

But when both signals, visual and aural, are subjected to the same=20
effect, AND the sound detection is based on the FM of the 4.5 megahertz=20
difference, it cancels out in the receiver. Later, while still operating=20
crippled, I made some aural signal to noise measurements, finding truely=20
amazing figures of nearly 80 db with video still applied, where when=20
operating with 2 klystrons as intended, it was hard put to make a bit=20
over 50 db.  It was such a problem that the FCC allowed us to make those=20
measurements with the baseband video cable unplugged when doing a proof=20
of performance, required for license renewal every 5 years back in those=20
days.

So in that scenario, I have first hand knowledge about relativity despite=20
my offical 8th grade education. Photons not having a mass but can exert=20
a push isn't something this 81 yo wet ram can quite figure out.  In my=20
mind, when the ball bounces, its mass exerts a push on the wall it was=20
bounced off of.  For a photon to do that, requires it have a mass,=20
however miniscule it might be, possibly just the mass of the light=20
energy its carrying.  Can that be quantified to a known value, probably=20
color dependent?
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass#Mass_in_relativity>
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_in_special_relativity#Relativistic
>_mass>
>
> F'up2 sci.physics.relativity
>
> --
> PointedEars
>
> Twitter: @PointedEars2
> Please do not cc me. / Bitte keine Kopien per E-Mail.


Cheers, Gene Heskett
=2D-=20
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
=2DEd Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>