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| References | (6 earlier) <518c5bbc$0$29997$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com> <roy-6D8B98.23095509052013@news.panix.com> <518c7f8e$0$29997$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com> <Hm0jt.6$I26.5@newsfe26.iad> <518cd360$0$29997$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-05-10 19:43 -0700 |
| Subject | Re: object.enable() anti-pattern |
| From | Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> |
| Newsgroups | comp.lang.python |
| Message-ID | <mailman.1545.1368240240.3114.python-list@python.org> (permalink) |
>>>>>> There is no sensible use-case for creating a file OBJECT unless it
>>>>>> initially wraps an open file pointer.
>>
>>> So far the only counter-examples given aren't counter-examples ...
>>
>> Well, sure, if you discount operations like "create this file" and
>> queries like "could I delete this file if I wanted to?" [0] as methods
>> of the file system rather than of a hypothetical file object.
>>
>> What about a distributed system? Suppose I want to create a file object
>> in one place, and send that object to the another place for the file to
>> be read from or written to [1]? Suppose that for security reasons, I
>> have to do it that way, because the first place can only create the
>> objects, and the second place can only access the underly file contents
>> through an existing object?
>
> Unless you have re-implemented the file I/O system, it doesn't matter. If
> your file objects are based on C I/O, then even if the first server
> cannot read or write to the files it still creates file objects in an
> open state, because that is how C works.
>
> Or maybe the first server only creates some sort of proxy to the real
> underlying file object. Or maybe you're re-implemented the I/O system,
> and aren't following C's design. Since you're just making this up as a
> thought experiment, anything is possible.
>
> But either way, that's fine. You've found an object where it does make
> sense to have an explicit "make it go" method: first one entity has
> permission to construct the object, but not to open the underlying file.
> Another entity has permission to open the underlying file, but not to
> create the object. I have no idea whether this is a reasonable security
> design or not, it actually sounds a bit rubbish to me but what do I know?
> So let's treat it as a reasonable design.
>
> As I've said, repeatedly, that's not what I'm talking about.
>
> When you DON'T have useful things that can be done with the object before
> calling "enable", then it is an anti-pattern to require a separate call
> to "enable" method, and the enable functionality should be moved into the
> object constructor. If you DO have useful things that can be done, like
> pass the object to another entity, for security, then that's a whole
> 'nuther story.
You're missing one other case: if there's useful things that can be
checked before calling enable(). Remember, on multi-user and/or
multi-processing systems, there could be contention for a slow
resource. If you automatically open a file for write, you're
preventing everyone else from writing and potentially reading it. So
there is something useful: did that file exist? Is that resource
available for writing?
Prior to such hi-level languages like Python and reliable hardware,
such fine-grained control was important and vital. Now it can
probably be relegated to special OS libraries.
Mark
> Really, what I'm describing is *normal* behaviour for most objects. We
> don't usually design APIs like this:
>
> n = int("42")
> n.enable()
> m = n + 1
> m.enable()
> x = m*2 + n*3
> print x - 1 # oops, raises because I forgot to call x.enable()
Again, you only do that for shared resources. In this case, memory
would have to be a (protected) shared resources, but the OS manages
memory allocation, so it's not an issue.
Mark
> That's a rubbish API, and for simple data-like objects, we all agree it
> is a rubbish API. So why accept the same rubbish API just because the
> object is more complicated?
I think I just told you, but let me know ..... :)
> For my next controversial opinion, I'm going to argue that we should do
> arithmetic using numbers rather than by inserting lists inside other
> lists:
Try arguing that we should have a common message-passing syntax.
> # Do this:
>
> count = 0
> count += 1
>
> # Not this:
>
> count = []
> count.insert(0, [])
That's actually what they do in "set theory", believe it or not.
MarkJ
Tacoma, Washington
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object.enable() anti-pattern Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-05-08 08:52 +0000
Re: object.enable() anti-pattern Christian Heimes <christian@python.org> - 2013-05-08 11:51 +0200
Re: object.enable() anti-pattern Robert Kern <robert.kern@gmail.com> - 2013-05-08 11:13 +0100
Re: object.enable() anti-pattern Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-05-08 12:30 +0000
Re: object.enable() anti-pattern Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-05-08 09:17 -0400
Re: object.enable() anti-pattern Duncan Booth <duncan.booth@invalid.invalid> - 2013-05-08 14:27 +0000
Re: object.enable() anti-pattern Dan Sommers <dan@tombstonezero.net> - 2013-05-09 02:38 +0000
Re: object.enable() anti-pattern Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-05-09 05:37 +0000
Re: object.enable() anti-pattern Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-05-09 15:52 +1000
Re: object.enable() anti-pattern Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-05-09 03:12 +0000
Re: object.enable() anti-pattern Dan Sommers <dan@tombstonezero.net> - 2013-05-09 02:42 +0000
Re: object.enable() anti-pattern Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-05-09 05:23 +0000
Re: object.enable() anti-pattern Terry Jan Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2013-05-09 02:41 -0400
Re: object.enable() anti-pattern Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2013-05-09 19:54 +1200
Re: object.enable() anti-pattern Cameron Simpson <cs@zip.com.au> - 2013-05-09 18:23 +1000
Re: object.enable() anti-pattern Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-05-09 11:30 +0000
Re: object.enable() anti-pattern Cameron Simpson <cs@zip.com.au> - 2013-05-10 09:36 +1000
Re: object.enable() anti-pattern Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-05-10 05:00 +0000
Re: object.enable() anti-pattern Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-05-10 01:50 -0400
Re: object.enable() anti-pattern Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-05-10 09:47 +0000
Re: object.enable() anti-pattern Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-05-10 09:22 -0400
Re: object.enable() anti-pattern Cameron Simpson <cs@zip.com.au> - 2013-05-11 08:25 +1000
Re: object.enable() anti-pattern Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-05-10 20:16 -0700
Re: object.enable() anti-pattern Thomas Rachel <nutznetz-0c1b6768-bfa9-48d5-a470-7603bd3aa915@spamschutz.glglgl.de> - 2013-05-11 06:21 +0200
Re: object.enable() anti-pattern Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-05-10 21:00 -0700
Re: object.enable() anti-pattern Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2013-05-11 15:04 -0400
Re: object.enable() anti-pattern Greg Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2013-05-10 10:56 +1200
Re: object.enable() anti-pattern Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-05-09 09:07 -0400
Re: object.enable() anti-pattern Oscar Benjamin <oscar.j.benjamin@gmail.com> - 2013-05-09 14:51 +0100
Re: object.enable() anti-pattern Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-05-09 18:21 +0000
Re: object.enable() anti-pattern MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2013-05-09 19:34 +0100
Re: object.enable() anti-pattern Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-05-10 02:30 +0000
Re: object.enable() anti-pattern Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-05-09 23:09 -0400
Re: object.enable() anti-pattern Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-05-09 20:19 -0700
Re: object.enable() anti-pattern Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-05-10 13:46 +1000
Re: object.enable() anti-pattern Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-05-10 05:03 +0000
Re: object.enable() anti-pattern Dan Sommers <dan@tombstonezero.net> - 2013-05-10 06:22 +0000
Re: object.enable() anti-pattern Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-05-10 11:00 +0000
Re: object.enable() anti-pattern Robert Kern <robert.kern@gmail.com> - 2013-05-10 13:19 +0100
Re: object.enable() anti-pattern Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-05-10 10:01 -0400
Re: object.enable() anti-pattern Oscar Benjamin <oscar.j.benjamin@gmail.com> - 2013-05-10 15:29 +0100
Re: object.enable() anti-pattern Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-05-10 10:37 -0400
Re: object.enable() anti-pattern Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-05-11 00:46 +1000
Re: object.enable() anti-pattern Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-05-10 10:54 -0400
Re: object.enable() anti-pattern Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-05-11 01:09 +1000
Re: object.enable() anti-pattern Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-05-10 11:21 -0400
Re: object.enable() anti-pattern Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-05-11 01:44 +1000
Re: object.enable() anti-pattern Robert Kern <robert.kern@gmail.com> - 2013-05-10 16:33 +0100
Re: object.enable() anti-pattern Serhiy Storchaka <storchaka@gmail.com> - 2013-05-10 18:44 +0300
Re: object.enable() anti-pattern André Malo <ndparker@gmail.com> - 2013-05-11 17:33 +0200
Re: object.enable() anti-pattern Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-05-12 02:04 +1000
Re: object.enable() anti-pattern Robert Kern <robert.kern@gmail.com> - 2013-05-10 18:20 +0100
Re: object.enable() anti-pattern Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-05-11 07:51 +0000
Re: object.enable() anti-pattern Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-05-11 09:31 -0400
Re: object.enable() anti-pattern Robert Kern <robert.kern@gmail.com> - 2013-05-11 20:55 +0100
Re: object.enable() anti-pattern Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-05-12 08:39 +1000
Re: object.enable() anti-pattern Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-05-11 03:24 +1000
Re: object.enable() anti-pattern Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-05-10 19:43 -0700
Re: object.enable() anti-pattern Wayne Werner <wayne@waynewerner.com> - 2013-05-12 11:48 -0500
Re: object.enable() anti-pattern Terry Jan Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2013-05-12 16:23 -0400
Re: object.enable() anti-pattern Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-05-09 20:51 -0700
Re: object.enable() anti-pattern Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-05-10 13:08 +1000
Re: object.enable() anti-pattern roy@panix.com (Roy Smith) - 2013-05-09 14:59 -0400
Re: object.enable() anti-pattern Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-05-10 07:55 +1000
Re: object.enable() anti-pattern Nobody <nobody@nowhere.com> - 2013-05-10 17:59 +0100
Re: object.enable() anti-pattern Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-05-10 13:32 -0400
Re: object.enable() anti-pattern Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2013-05-11 15:24 -0400
Re: object.enable() anti-pattern Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-05-11 07:05 +0000
Re: object.enable() anti-pattern Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-05-08 19:53 -0700
Re: object.enable() anti-pattern Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-05-08 19:56 -0700
Re: object.enable() anti-pattern Wayne Werner <wayne@waynewerner.com> - 2013-05-09 06:08 -0500
Re: object.enable() anti-pattern Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-05-09 11:51 +0000
Re: object.enable() anti-pattern Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2013-05-10 11:43 +1200
Re: object.enable() anti-pattern Michael Speer <knomenet@gmail.com> - 2013-05-09 20:18 -0400
Re: object.enable() anti-pattern Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-05-09 20:50 -0400
Re: object.enable() anti-pattern Wayne Werner <wayne@waynewerner.com> - 2013-05-12 12:14 -0500
Re: object.enable() anti-pattern Terry Jan Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2013-05-12 16:03 -0400
Re: object.enable() anti-pattern Greg Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2013-05-13 11:18 +1200
Re: object.enable() anti-pattern Fábio Santos <fabiosantosart@gmail.com> - 2013-05-13 07:32 +0100
Re: object.enable() anti-pattern Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-05-13 17:36 +1000
Re: object.enable() anti-pattern Fábio Santos <fabiosantosart@gmail.com> - 2013-05-13 09:09 +0100
Re: object.enable() anti-pattern Wayne Werner <wayne@waynewerner.com> - 2013-05-13 08:15 -0500
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