Re: Python Front-end to GCC

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Date	2013-10-23 08:43 +1100
Subject	Re: Python Front-end to GCC
From	Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.python
Message-ID	<mailman.1383.1382478195.18130.python-list@python.org> (permalink)

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On Wed, Oct 23, 2013 at 4:27 AM, Steven D'Aprano
<steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> wrote:
> On Tue, 22 Oct 2013 23:20:52 +1100, Chris Angelico wrote:
>
>> Considering that rapiding took about 1200ms (ish - again, cold cache)
>> previously, adding even just 250ms is noticeable.
>
> Please excuse my skepticism, but in my experience, that would probably
> mean in practice:
>
> ... rapiding took about 1200ms, plus or minus 200ms, plus 500ms if the
> system is under load, plus 800ms if the developer vagued out for a
> moment, plus 1900ms if he happened to be scratching an itch, plus 2700ms
> if the anti-virus happened to be scanning something, plus 4100ms if the
> dev decided this was a good time to take a sip of coffee, plus 437000ms
> if he needed to make the coffee first, plus 72000000ms if he was just
> taking a moment to check something on Reddit or answer an email...

Yes; and more importantly, at the times when it actually would be
used, the cache will likely be warm.

> You're right, of course, that 1/4 second is noticeable. I just find it
> hard to credit that it's *significant* in the circumstances you're
> describing. But I could be wrong.

Yeah, but the problem here is a fundamental of human nature. I
mentioned earlier that I was trying to "sell" the notion of an instant
pre-check of the code. I use one myself, have done for ages, and it's
helped me often enough that I don't care if it occasionally adds a
second to my time. (I have a few such assistants that involve
searching through recent git commit messages, so they can take
multiple seconds if the cache is cold. I don't care; once it's in
cache, it's way faster.) But imagine sitting beside a skeptical fellow
developer and saying, "Enable this line here and it'll catch these
sorts of bugs before you even spin it up in your testbox" - and he
hits F7 and notices that it takes twice as long as he's used to.
That's going to make it a pretty hard sell. That's why I wanted to get
the time cost of the smoke test as low as I possibly could, even on a
cold cache.

(I'm used to tough sells at my workplace. It took years before we
adopted source control.... yes, seriously. And even once we did, I had
to fight to get other developers to make useful commits and commit
messages. One in particular - who, fortunately, is no longer with us -
saw the whole thing as a nuisance that got in the way of his genius,
so he'd just commit once at the end of the day with a barely-useful
message. But then, he was pretty astounding in a lot of other areas,
too - really amazing... like using the For-Case paradigm in PHP with
an off-by-one error...)

ChrisA

Thread

Python Front-end to GCC Philip Herron <herron.philip@googlemail.com> - 2013-10-20 10:56 -0700
  Re: Python Front-end to GCC victorgarcianet@gmail.com - 2013-10-20 15:10 -0700
    Re: Python Front-end to GCC John Nagle <nagle@animats.com> - 2013-10-22 23:48 -0700
      Re: Python Front-end to GCC Philip Herron <herron.philip@googlemail.com> - 2013-10-23 00:25 -0700
        Re: Python Front-end to GCC Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-10-23 09:42 +0100
        Re: Python Front-end to GCC John Nagle <nagle@animats.com> - 2013-10-23 13:51 -0700
  Re: Python Front-end to GCC Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-10-20 20:35 -0700
    Re: Python Front-end to GCC Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2013-10-21 07:46 +0000
      Re: Python Front-end to GCC Oscar Benjamin <oscar.j.benjamin@gmail.com> - 2013-10-21 10:55 +0100
        Re: Python Front-end to GCC Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-10-21 23:41 +0000
          Re: Python Front-end to GCC Oscar Benjamin <oscar.j.benjamin@gmail.com> - 2013-10-22 10:14 +0100
            Re: Python Front-end to GCC Philip Herron <herron.philip@googlemail.com> - 2013-10-22 02:32 -0700
            Re: Python Front-end to GCC Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-10-22 12:00 +0000
              Re: Python Front-end to GCC Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-10-22 23:20 +1100
                Re: Python Front-end to GCC Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-10-22 17:27 +0000
                Re: Python Front-end to GCC Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-10-23 08:43 +1100
              Re: Python Front-end to GCC Dave Angel <davea@davea.name> - 2013-10-22 14:04 +0000
                Re: Python Front-end to GCC Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-10-22 15:22 +0000
                Re: Python Front-end to GCC Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-10-22 15:39 +0000
                Re: Python Front-end to GCC Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-10-22 16:40 +0000
                Re: Python Front-end to GCC Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-10-22 17:50 +0100
                Re: Python Front-end to GCC Chris Kaynor <ckaynor@zindagigames.com> - 2013-10-22 09:52 -0700
                Re: Python Front-end to GCC Frank Miles <fpm@u.washington.edu> - 2013-10-22 16:53 +0000
                Re: Python Front-end to GCC Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-10-22 17:23 +0000
                Re: Python Front-end to GCC Chris Kaynor <ckaynor@zindagigames.com> - 2013-10-22 10:35 -0700
                Re: Python Front-end to GCC Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2013-10-22 17:37 +0000
                Re: Python Front-end to GCC Oscar Benjamin <oscar.j.benjamin@gmail.com> - 2013-10-22 18:37 +0100
                Re: Python Front-end to GCC MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2013-10-22 18:42 +0100
                Re: Python Front-end to GCC Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-10-22 18:49 +0000
                Re: Python Front-end to GCC Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-10-25 04:40 +0100
                Re: Python Front-end to GCC Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-10-25 04:55 -0700
                Re: Python Front-end to GCC Dan Sommers <dan@tombstonezero.net> - 2013-10-25 12:55 +0000
                Re: Python Front-end to GCC Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-10-25 15:18 +0100
                Re: Python Front-end to GCC Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2013-10-25 10:35 -0400
                Re: Python Front-end to GCC Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-10-25 11:26 -0700
                Re: Python Front-end to GCC Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-10-25 19:06 +0000
                Re: Python Front-end to GCC Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-10-25 19:40 +0100
                Re: Python Front-end to GCC Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-10-25 11:45 -0700
                Re: Python Front-end to GCC rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-10-25 11:59 -0700
                Re: Python Front-end to GCC Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-10-25 12:09 -0700
                Re: Python Front-end to GCC rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-10-25 12:15 -0700
                Re: Python Front-end to GCC Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-10-25 20:02 +0100
                Re: Python Front-end to GCC Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-10-25 12:18 -0700
                Re: Python Front-end to GCC John Nagle <nagle@animats.com> - 2013-10-26 14:31 -0700
                Re: Python Front-end to GCC Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-10-26 15:10 -0700
                Re: Python Front-end to GCC Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-10-27 15:14 -0700
                Re: Python Front-end to GCC rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-10-27 19:15 -0700
                Re: Python Front-end to GCC Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-10-28 08:44 +0000
                Re: Python Front-end to GCC rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-10-28 02:31 -0700
                Re: Python Front-end to GCC Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-10-25 20:36 +0100
                Re: Python Front-end to GCC Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-10-25 12:49 -0700
                Re: Python Front-end to GCC Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-10-25 21:14 +0100
                Re: Python Front-end to GCC Tim Delaney <timothy.c.delaney@gmail.com> - 2013-10-26 07:11 +1100
                Re: Python Front-end to GCC Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-10-25 13:29 -0700
                Re: Python Front-end to GCC Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-10-25 21:36 +0100
                Re: Python Front-end to GCC Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-10-26 02:42 +0000
                Re: Python Front-end to GCC Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-10-25 21:44 +0100
                Re: Python Front-end to GCC Tim Delaney <timothy.c.delaney@gmail.com> - 2013-10-26 07:48 +1100
                Re: Python Front-end to GCC Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-10-25 21:56 +0100
                Re: Python Front-end to GCC Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-10-25 14:02 -0700
                Re: Python Front-end to GCC Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-10-25 22:11 +0100
                Re: Python Front-end to GCC Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-10-25 14:37 -0700
                Re: Python Front-end to GCC Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-10-25 22:56 +0100
                Re: Python Front-end to GCC Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-10-26 13:36 +1100
                Re: Python Front-end to GCC Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2013-10-22 17:15 +0000
                Re: Python Front-end to GCC Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-10-22 18:58 +0000
                Re: Python Front-end to GCC Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-10-22 20:26 +0000
                Re: Python Front-end to GCC Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-10-22 15:36 +0000
              Re: Python Front-end to GCC Oscar Benjamin <oscar.j.benjamin@gmail.com> - 2013-10-22 15:15 +0100
      Re: Python Front-end to GCC Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-10-21 13:14 -0700
      Re: Python Front-end to GCC Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2013-10-21 16:29 -0400
        Re: Python Front-end to GCC rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-10-21 20:40 -0700
  Re: Python Front-end to GCC Philip Herron <herron.philip@googlemail.com> - 2013-10-21 04:08 -0700
    Re: Python Front-end to GCC Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-10-21 13:26 -0700
      Re: Python Front-end to GCC Philip Herron <herron.philip@googlemail.com> - 2013-10-21 14:03 -0700
        Re: Python Front-end to GCC Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-10-21 16:04 -0700
          Re: Python Front-end to GCC Piet van Oostrum <piet@vanoostrum.org> - 2013-10-21 23:45 -0400
            Re: Python Front-end to GCC Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-10-21 21:24 -0700
              Re: Python Front-end to GCC Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2013-10-22 05:25 +0000
            Re: Python Front-end to GCC Dave Angel <davea@davea.name> - 2013-10-22 04:39 +0000
            Re: Python Front-end to GCC Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-10-22 08:04 -0700
              Re: Python Front-end to GCC Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-10-22 17:09 +0000
              Re: Python Front-end to GCC Piet van Oostrum <piet@vanoostrum.org> - 2013-10-22 13:20 -0400
            Re: Python Front-end to GCC Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2013-10-22 11:46 -0400
            Re: Python Front-end to GCC Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-10-22 16:52 +0100
            Re: Python Front-end to GCC Benjamin Kaplan <benjamin.kaplan@case.edu> - 2013-10-22 09:03 -0700
            Re: Python Front-end to GCC Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-10-22 10:50 -0700
              Re: Python Front-end to GCC rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-10-22 11:11 -0700
              Re: Python Front-end to GCC Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2013-10-22 18:18 +0000
                Re: Python Front-end to GCC Piet van Oostrum <piet@vanoostrum.org> - 2013-10-22 15:20 -0400
                Re: Python Front-end to GCC Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2013-10-22 19:27 +0000
                Re: Python Front-end to GCC Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-10-22 20:38 +0100
                Re: Python Front-end to GCC Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2013-10-22 20:00 +0000
                Re: Python Front-end to GCC Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-10-22 20:32 +0100
            Re: Python Front-end to GCC Skip Montanaro <skip@pobox.com> - 2013-10-22 13:08 -0500
            Re: Python Front-end to GCC MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2013-10-22 19:16 +0100
            Re: Python Front-end to GCC Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-10-22 11:16 -0700
            Re: Python Front-end to GCC Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-10-22 11:22 -0700
            Re: Python Front-end to GCC Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-10-22 11:28 -0700
              Re: Python Front-end to GCC Piet van Oostrum <piet@vanoostrum.org> - 2013-10-22 18:11 -0400
                Re: Python Front-end to GCC Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-10-23 17:28 +1100
              Re: Python Front-end to GCC Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-10-22 22:47 +0000
            Re: Python Front-end to GCC Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2013-10-22 14:23 -0400
              Re: Python Front-end to GCC rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-10-22 11:40 -0700
                Re: Python Front-end to GCC Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-10-22 19:58 +0100
            Re: Python Front-end to GCC Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2013-10-22 14:40 -0400
              Re: Python Front-end to GCC alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2013-10-23 11:36 +1000
                Re: Python Front-end to GCC rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-10-22 21:04 -0700
                Re: Python Front-end to GCC Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-10-23 07:06 +0100
            Re: Python Front-end to GCC MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2013-10-22 19:47 +0100
            Re: Python Front-end to GCC Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2013-10-22 13:56 -0400
            Re: Python Front-end to GCC Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2013-10-22 22:05 -0600
            Re: Python Front-end to GCC Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-10-23 07:13 +0100
            Re: Python Front-end to GCC Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-10-26 14:25 -0700
            Re: Python Front-end to GCC Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-10-26 14:33 -0700
            Re: Python Front-end to GCC Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-10-26 22:38 +0100
            Re: Python Front-end to GCC Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-10-26 22:35 +0100
    Re: Python Front-end to GCC Antoine Pitrou <solipsis@pitrou.net> - 2013-10-22 08:55 +0000
      Re: Python Front-end to GCC Philip Herron <herron.philip@googlemail.com> - 2013-10-22 02:08 -0700
      Re: Python Front-end to GCC Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-10-22 10:10 +0000
        Re: Python Front-end to GCC Antoine Pitrou <solipsis@pitrou.net> - 2013-10-22 15:51 +0000
    Re: Python Front-end to GCC Stefan Behnel <stefan_ml@behnel.de> - 2013-10-24 08:47 +0200
  Re: Python Front-end to GCC xDog Walker <thudfoo@gmail.com> - 2013-10-25 14:49 -0700

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