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Re: Python is going to be hard

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On Thu, Sep 4, 2014 at 11:37 PM, Steven D'Aprano
<steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> wrote:
> Chris Angelico wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Sep 4, 2014 at 4:23 PM, Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> You seem to think a print hanging out of a program to be ok, normal.
>>> I consider it exceptional.
>>
>> You keep saying that it's exceptional. You haven't really said why.
>> It's the simplest form of "program produces output for the human to
>> see", which all of your subsequent examples are more complicated
>> versions of:
>
> Out of the Python built-ins, how many functions (apart from print itself!)
> print output instead of, or as well as, returning?
>
> Out of the standard library, what percentage of functions and methods print
> output instead of, or as well as, returning?
>
> I haven't counted, but I'm guessing it will be well under 1%. There's a few
> obvious examples: pprint.pprint, calendar.pr*, dis.dis, maybe a few more.
> But I think they should be considered *exceptional*.

This is an unfair comparison, though. There's a vast difference
between library and application code. You also don't find library code
that changes the current directory, but on the flip side, *every* job
control system needs that facility. (With sysvinit, job control is
shell scripts. With upstart and systemd, there are directives to set
the working directory. Etcetera.) It's bad form for a library to
produce console output, because it doesn't own the console; but the
application does. The logger module will, by default, produce stderr
output, because it's assuming the application owns it. Otherwise, it's
generally up to the application to print stuff out.

So a fairer comparison is: How many applications produce non-debug
output on stderr or stdout? And that would be a much larger
percentage. Even GUI programs will, in some cases - for instance, try
firing up your favorite GUI text editor with no X server active, or
with invalid .Xauthority. You'll get some sort of error message - on
the console. Which means that somewhere in the GUI library, there's
fall-back code that produces console output. That's why I say it's the
most basic of all forms of that fundamental of programming, producing
output that a human can read. It's the simple one that you teach
first; everything else is built on that.

ChrisA

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Thread

Python is going to be hard Seymore4Head <Seymore4Head@Hotmail.invalid> - 2014-09-03 14:10 -0400
  Re: Python is going to be hard John Gordon <gordon@panix.com> - 2014-09-03 18:17 +0000
    Re: Python is going to be hard Seymore4Head <Seymore4Head@Hotmail.invalid> - 2014-09-03 14:52 -0400
      Re: Python is going to be hard mm0fmf <none@mailinator.com> - 2014-09-03 22:37 +0100
  Re: Python is going to be hard Rock Neurotiko <miguelglafuente@gmail.com> - 2014-09-03 20:16 +0200
  Re: Python is going to be hard Rob Gaddi <rgaddi@technologyhighland.invalid> - 2014-09-03 11:19 -0700
    Re: Python is going to be hard Seymore4Head <Seymore4Head@Hotmail.invalid> - 2014-09-03 14:50 -0400
  Re: Python is going to be hard MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2014-09-03 19:24 +0100
  Re: Python is going to be hard Skip Montanaro <skip@pobox.com> - 2014-09-03 13:28 -0500
    Re: Python is going to be hard Seymore4Head <Seymore4Head@Hotmail.invalid> - 2014-09-03 14:52 -0400
  Re: Python is going to be hard Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2014-09-03 11:33 -0700
    Re: Python is going to be hard Seymore4Head <Seymore4Head@Hotmail.invalid> - 2014-09-03 14:41 -0400
      Re: Python is going to be hard Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2014-09-03 12:49 -0700
  Re: Python is going to be hard Juan Christian <juan0christian@gmail.com> - 2014-09-03 15:44 -0300
    Re: Python is going to be hard Seymore4Head <Seymore4Head@Hotmail.invalid> - 2014-09-03 14:56 -0400
  Re: Python is going to be hard Seymore4Head <Seymore4Head@Hotmail.invalid> - 2014-09-03 14:49 -0400
    Re: Python is going to be hard Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2014-09-03 11:55 -0700
      Re: Python is going to be hard Rob Gaddi <rgaddi@technologyhighland.invalid> - 2014-09-03 12:01 -0700
    Re: Python is going to be hard Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2014-09-03 13:11 -0600
      Re: Python is going to be hard Seymore4Head <Seymore4Head@Hotmail.invalid> - 2014-09-03 15:22 -0400
    Re: Python is going to be hard Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-09-04 12:11 +1000
  Re: Python is going to be hard Denis McMahon <denismfmcmahon@gmail.com> - 2014-09-03 20:55 +0000
  Re: Python is going to be hard Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-09-03 18:48 -0700
    Re: Python is going to be hard Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-09-04 11:56 +1000
      Re: Python is going to be hard Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-09-03 19:10 -0700
        Re: Python is going to be hard Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-09-04 12:25 +1000
          Re: Python is going to be hard Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-09-03 19:33 -0700
            Re: Python is going to be hard alister <alister.nospam.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2014-09-04 10:29 +0000
              Re: Python is going to be hard Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-09-04 06:08 -0700
          Re: Python is going to be hard Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-09-04 23:25 +1000
            Re: Python is going to be hard Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-09-04 23:55 +1000
      Re: Python is going to be hard Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-09-03 20:22 -0700
        Re: Python is going to be hard Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-09-04 13:49 +1000
          Re: Python is going to be hard Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-09-03 21:11 -0700
            Re: Python is going to be hard Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-09-04 15:02 +1000
              Re: Python is going to be hard Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-09-03 23:23 -0700
                Re: Python is going to be hard Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-09-04 16:39 +1000
                Re: Python is going to be hard Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-09-04 06:15 -0700
                Re: Python is going to be hard Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-09-04 23:30 +1000
                Re: Python is going to be hard Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-09-04 23:37 +1000
                Re: Python is going to be hard Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-09-04 15:04 +0100
                Re: Python is going to be hard Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-09-05 00:08 +1000
                Re: Python is going to be hard Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-09-04 19:24 -0700
                Re: Python is going to be hard Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-09-05 12:30 +1000
                Re: Python is going to be hard Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-09-04 22:51 -0400
                Re: Python is going to be hard Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-09-04 19:56 -0700
                Re: Python is going to be hard Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-09-05 13:08 +1000
        Re: Python is going to be hard Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2014-09-03 21:06 -0700
          Re: Python is going to be hard Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-09-03 21:15 -0700

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